Newbie

Dalliance · Jun 5, 2023

Dalliance is my first, and likely only, boat. It’s 30 feet, was a cash purchase in need of cosmetic work only, and seemed big to me as a first boat. At the time, 2006, Boat US was the most recommended boat insurer, but they would not insure me because I was a first time boat owner with a 30 foot boat, which they deemed to be high risk. I went to my home & auto insurer, State Farm at the time, and they covered the boat, no questions. After the first year or two with no claims, Boat US decided I was a good risk and actually sought my business. I favored them because they specialize in boats, so I switched to Boat US for about 12 years. Never had a claim, but then Geico took over… and the boat is now insured by Chubb.

Sooooo… my recommendation is….
Consider starting with a smaller boat and talking to your home & auto insurer.

Davidasailor26 · Jun 5, 2023

What type of sailing do you think you’d like to do? My initial impression is that 44’ is a lot of boat. Also remember there will be expenses with any boat to make it meet your needs and general maintenance. So I’d recommend looking at something smaller, and if still affordable with a large margin for maintenance a little newer. But the right choice for you will depend on what you’d like to do with it.

Don S/V ILLusion · Jun 5, 2023

44 year old 44 ft boat. I admire your guts but you might want to reconsider both.

Tally Ho · Jun 5, 2023

My first boat was a 28-foot 1996 Hunter 280. It was a great boat to learn on…how to dock, how to maintain it, how much it was going to cost to keep it (slip fees, insurance, registration, etc.).

I was a little smaller than my target boat for Lake Michigan…which was 30 foot minimum). But it really was a good boat to learn on, and it was pretty easy to maintain. Costs can skyrocket if the boat needs work and you don’t have the skills to maintain it (parts alone are expensive, but yard fees drive costs way up.

I sold it after about 5 years, and bought a 1988 O’Day 322. She is 10 years older, and has a lot more character (which also means more maintenance). But I really like this boat and she is fun to sail even in rough seas and big winds on Lake Michigan (and importantly, I feel safe on her). I like to work on her, and constantly upgrade and maintain things on the boat…since I purchased her 9 years ago, I have spent about $12k in various upgrades (and I do all the work). Big things like new sails, a canvas cover for winter, a new Auto pilot, a new prop shaft and coupling, a new VHF radio, a Mack Pack, etc. and small things like new halyards, dripless shaft seal, above the waterline thru hulls, sanitation hose, sink drain hose, etc.

You need to make your wish list based on your interests, skills, intended sailing type (liveaboard, day sailing in the bay, sailing to Alaska and Hawaii?)….etc.

My initial thought is 44’ is a lot of boat for a newbie and a 1979 built boat will require a lot of maintenance, and will be hard to insure. You don’t want a boat so big you can’t get it out of the slip (or back to the dock)… and you don’t want to be cash poor and not be able to go out for dinner once in a while because your boat swallowed all your available funds.

Greg

shemandr · Jun 5, 2023

Age is a big issue with insurance companies. It's cheaper to insure a newer boat than older one even if the newer boat is larger and more complicated. It doesn't make sense to me but actuaries don't get out that much. We think the government runs the show but I think it's more the insurance industry.
As far as your pan to buy smaller and move up it may be the best you can do. Others will say it all depends on how you intend to use the boat. We are driven by 2' itis and many buy larger than than is best for that use. All boat purchases should start with the intended use.

Terry Cox · Jun 6, 2023

A 1989 H28 was our first boat. Sailed her for three years and got bit hard by the cruising life. Learned how to sail and handle a boat in those three years, then decided to go bigger in 2002 with a P42. No regrets.

stickinthemud57 · Jun 6, 2023

I'm with Davidsailor26 in wanting to know more about what you are planning to do with said boat.

Key questions:
-Where, and under what conditions, do you plan to be sailing?
-How many passengers and crew do you anticipate having onboard, typically.
-Day sailing? Overnighting? Blue water sailing? Extended passages?

Generally speaking, I would follow Terry Cox's example and start in a smaller boat (something between 25 and 35 LOA), get some expert instruction, and be able to confidently single-hand the boat from slip-to-slip. When you can do this, you can confidently instruct your crew and take some of the burden off yourself, but still be able to handle the boat in an emergency.

Some other things I would encourage you to consider:
-Availability of parts and service for engine, rigging, hardware, and other things that break or wear out.
-If you have not already, ask yourself this question: "What benefits am I hoping to derive from boat ownership". Try to imagine how the features of your chosen boat (or lack thereof) will affect your enjoyment.
-Total ongoing costs of ownership. I never looked at the aggregate expense, but probably would have gone ahead anyway.
-Resale potential. At some point, the boat will pass to new hands. Having a reasonable potential for resale will help keep it from becoming a burden to you or your survivors.

dlochner · Jun 6, 2023

The smaller the boat you learn on the better your sailing skills will be. Small boats are quick and responsive, you learn quickly what works and what doesn't. By small, I mean a 16-20 day sailer.

Insurance for older boats can be tough to find. There is too much risk involved, especially for a novice sailor. The less expensive the boat, the less damage it takes to make the boat a total constructive loss. Also, expenses like salvage costs can exceed the value of the boat. The market won't support rates that are profitable for these boats.

Owners of older difficult to insure boats often have liability only coverage and oil spill coverage. Availability of liability insurance will depend on experience.

George Braun · Jun 6, 2023

As a newbie sailor, the best thing you can do for yourself is spend time on a boat small enough to give you direct physical feedback as you learn to sail. Sailing is a constantly changing long list of variables - wind, waves, boat, sailing angles, and sail trim, just to name a few. One of the joys of sailing is learning to adapt to and master all of these and use your knowledge and experience to set and accomplish a goal. Doesn't really matter whether your goal is crossing the lake without swimming, being first across the finishing line, or crossing an ocean in comfort and safety. It is all "horses for courses". A 44' will handicap you by not allowing physical feedback, never mind the bank, the maintenance, and the fact that insurance companies and banks don't want to deal with older boats. I was lucky to start with a 17' daysailer many years ago. Went through a progression of steadily larger boats as needs, family, and everything else changed over time. For me, our new-to-us 2008 Hunter 36 will provide exactly what we need now, which is a boat comfortable enough for a couple in their 60's, small enough to get in and out of our slip without a third person regardless of the conditions, yet capable of takin gon challenging conditions, and great for sailing OR cruising with kids and grandkids or friends.
Best of luck, it's a great way of life.

rgranger · Jun 6, 2023

Hi @muzik311

As @dlochner already said, smaller boats are better for learning. You can FEEL the boat and how your actions affect the boat's performance. Unless you plan to do extensive cruising and living on board in the next year or so, 44' seems like too much boat. My guess is you will spend more time chasing down ghost electric problems, electronic problems, engine problems, plumbing problems, etc. than you will actually sailing. I'd recommend something in the 30' or less range for a first boat... minimize the number of systems you have to maintain and enjoy sailing it.

There is a very true saying that goes "the smaller the boat, the more often you will use it".

rgranger · Jun 6, 2023

On insurance... if you get a smaller boat that you can afford out of pocket, then you only need to get liability.

rgranger · Jun 6, 2023

.... and get towing insurance from Boat US.

jssailem · Jun 6, 2023

First boat. 8 ft ElToro Learned the meaning of balance during all points of sail. Punishment was swift if you failed at balance.
Boats grew from 14-43 feet based on sailing skill and racing experiences. Dinghy’s, racing/planning hulls, deep keel ocean boats shoal keel boats all provide sailing knowledge and situational experience.

There are limits to what you can manage as a solo sailor. Big boats in open water can be forgiving. In tight spaces more than a handful unless you do not care about the costs of boat handling like a bumper car. Things that you have no experience for start happening rapidly and your reaction time is not prepared.

Which leads us to the idea of insurance. Companies want your money and no accidents. New minted boat owners with no experience are like 20 somethings with the keys to a new hot rod. No amount of premium will cover the potential damage risk.

If you want to stay in the marina and throw boat parties or are planning to hire a captain to manage the big boat then go big or go home (as they say).

If this is a “I want to learn to sail, cause I want to cross a sea”. Then go to a sailing club and get lessons. It is like learning to fly a plane. Starting on the Cessna 150 before you jump into the Lear jet.

Soon a broker will be willingly to help you part with your money as you jump out of that 20 footer and swagger down the docks looking at the boats for sale...

PS. A 44 ft boat built in 1979 is a project boat. More boat work than sailing.

dlochner · Jun 6, 2023

rgranger said:
Hi @muzik311

As @dlochner already said, smaller boats are better for learning. You can FEEL the boat and how your actions affect the boat's performance. Unless you plan to do extensive cruising and living on board in the next year or so, 44' seems like too much boat. My guess is you will spend more time chasing down ghost electric problems, electronic problems, engine problems, plumbing problems, etc. than you will actually sailing. I'd recommend something in the 30' or less range for a first boat... minimize the number of systems you have to maintain and enjoy sailing it.

There is a very true saying that goes "the smaller the boat, the more often you will use it".

Big boat sailing is about managing systems. Small boat sailing is about sailing.

rgranger · Jun 6, 2023

dlochner said:
Big boat sailing is about managing systems. Small boat sailing is about sailing.

That is a very succinct way to frame it. :beer:

dlochner · Jun 6, 2023

rgranger said:
That is a very succinct way to frame it.

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Terry Cox · Jun 6, 2023

muzik311 said:
Seeking honest advice for a newbie with zero experience sailing.

A couple of pointers. When we purchased our first boat, I attended a Power Squadron seminar, which gave us a ten percent discount on our boat insurance. The other thing is I purchased this book, which is loaded with lots of good boating information for beginning boaters. Chapman Piloting & Seamanship 64th... book by Elbert S. Maloney

The rest I just took the boat out and practiced with all the things about boating; anchoring, trimming, reefing, etc. I also purchased an assortment of books on different topics and practiced on the water. You will develop those skills over time. And remember, anchoring is the most important system on the boat. Learn how to use it well.

High Current · Jun 7, 2023

Terry Cox said:
A couple of pointers. When we purchased our first boat, I attended a Power Squadron seminar, which gave us a ten percent discount on our boat insurance. The other thing is I purchased this book, which is loaded with lots of good boating information for beginning boaters. Chapman Piloting & Seamanship 64th... book by Elbert S. Maloney

The rest I just took the boat out and practiced with all the things about boating; anchoring, trimming, reefing, etc. I also purchased an assortment of books on different topics and practiced on the water. You will develop those skills over time. And remember, anchoring is the most important system on the boat. Learn how to use it well.

for Chapman!

I also agree with everyone here about the virtues of a small dinghy that you can feel. Lake sailing with shifty winds taught me a lot. My old Hunter 25 was a good middle - a bit cramped for cruising but fun to sail and small and light enough to be forgiving when (not if) you do stupid things. Made a lot of good memories with my two (young) girls. 30 might be more comfortable if you have a family. 44, on the other hand, may look appealing but is definitely too big with “zero experience” unless you have designs on serious cruising with a lot of people….which you probably shouldn’t attempt without some experience.

Also: I’ve been very happy with Progressive insurance. They gave me a reasonable price with a fairly short sailing resume, though not exactly zero. They were also very good when said Hunter got totaled on the hard this past winter.