Newbie here, Can someone help with a few questions please?

Aug 23, 2016
50
N/A N/A Texas
I am in search of a new to me sailboat. This would be my third sailboat. I have run across an Irwin Citation 31. From all my research over the last few weeks, I've read about leaking portlights, chainplates, not being built well, hulls too thin, etc. Yet they are still afloat and people are sailing them all over.

I had hired a surveyor to inspect this boat and on the starboard side around the chainplates, it's soft, perhaps 2 to 2.5 feet area. The port side around the chainplates, about a foot or so is soft and not nearly as bad as the starboard side. Looking at where they are attached on the inside, believe it or not, it was solid testing with a hammer but won't know until removing them for further inspection if I decide to do so. The surveyor stated, " wow, this boat surely shows much better than I thought, but looking good of course does not make it a good boat. All of the hoses on the engine need replacing. The stuffing box needs to be addressed for sure as it is cracking. The boat is well-appointed on the inside and except for an autopilot, it has every other feature I would want on a boat but it has been setting for 1.5 years in the water and not moved since the owner bought another, bigger boat. The engine started up and ran well enough at idle but after about 5 minutes the impeller crapped out so we shut it down.

That was the bad but now the good, IMO. Very clean on the inside, from top to bottom with a little bit of water stain around the chainplates. Sails have lots of life in them, roller furling, lazy jacks, bimini, and sail pack in very good condition. Everything we touched, turned on or started worked well except for the impeller giving up on us.

I have the skills and time to do whatever is necessary with the engine except for the stuffing box. It will surely need a bottom job, but after finding what we did, I decided not to have it hauled out because I wanted to re-negotiate and we are still too far apart but not by much.

Now my questions, I have never performed a deck repair but after looking at youtube, I feel confident in doing that job as well. Has anyone in here ever moved the chainplates to the hull? Can anyone give me any advice besides run away? I do think this boat has potential, it just needs these items addressed. If I do all the work myself, except for the bottom job, 2 grand but doesn't include any repairs of blisters. I feel as though worst case scenario would be spending 5 grand or less including bottom job and still not be upside down in this boat compared to others Irwin 31's on the market nationwide.

Fire away and appreciate any productive comments!
 
Feb 18, 2022
440
Catalina 36 Port Orchard
Rebedding anything that goes through the hull is easy and usually a normal maintenance item. Even the windows. As for the chainplates and the soft spots…

Well you have prolly figured out by now that this is a huge job, and you should for your safety do this with the mast lowered (extra $$). You will want to dig out all the rotten wood and get an inch or so into good wood, remove a bit of glass above the good wood as well, and bevel it. Then you will need to make the replacement piece of wood, get/make some glue to hold the wood to the inner hull. Then relay the top, fair it out, gel coat it and redrill the holes for the chainplates.

I wouldn’t move the chainplates to the outside of the hull, leave them as they were engineered. The outer hull isn’t stressed for the tension the rigging will put on them and is likely to cause problems later in life.
 
Jan 11, 2014
13,055
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Your general assessment of Irwin's is consistent with what I have heard. I've only sailed on one and wasn't impressed, but that have had more to do with the skipper than the boat.

Typically in hull construction the hull gets thinner the further it is away from the keel, which should be very thick. As such it is not designed to take the loads of the rigging directly, as would be the case if the chain plates were moved to the hull. It would also affect upwind performance as the sheeting angles would move outboard or the sheet would have to be run inboard of the shrouds which would affect off the wind trim.

Very carefully check the bulkheads or knees where the chainplates attach, especially in less visible areas. Also check the tabbing between the hull and knees and bulkheads.

In the end it is your labor and money. If the price is right (and I have no idea what the right price is) then this may be a boat for you.
 

DArcy

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,770
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
I'm not sure why you would consider changing the location of the chain plates. If the bulkheads where the chain plates attach are rotted then they need to be rebuild anyway. It's all very doable but takes either skill and money or a lot more money.

If you love the boat then it's worth it. If you are just trying to get a better deal then ask yourself how you will feel half way through the rebuild, still scraping your knuckles and spending money when you could have spent a bit more money on a boat that you could sail right away.
I shopped for about 2 years before I found my boat, and I knew right away when I stepped aboard it was the boat I wanted. Lots of skinned knuckles, money a couple years later and I'm still enjoying it. I'm not sure I would have stuck with it if I didn't have that feeling when I step aboard.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,302
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I'm pretty much with DArcy ... if the boat really suits you, nothing you mentioned seems like a deal breaker ... yet. Even the soft decks are something you can repair and may not be too concerning. It sounds like it is the decks around the chainplates that are the issue and the bulkheads seem to be secure. I don't think that is uncommon and it's encouraging that the structural support is sound. I agree, do not move the rigging. If that is a consideration, it wouldn't make sense to even be considering the boat. There is a big difference between routine repairs that make the boat ready to sail fairly soon and a major overhaul that requires design modifications and a lot of time and expertise to perform and make the boat safe. You should run away from the latter!
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
23,352
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
About moving the rigging, I did not think how that changes everything
I am glad you picked up on those wise suggestions. Our boats are designed in a specific way. The engineering places strong points (in the case of your Irwin on the bulk heads - much like my Cal) where the stresses from the mast will be transferred to the hull. If the hull was the design point for the chainplates, the build up when forming the hull, would have been designed to manage the stress. The Irwin was not designed that way. Could you spend time beefing up the hull and designing strong points into the hull and ribs to transfer the load across the hull. Sure.
  • Do you have the engineering to do this alteration, and is it worth your time and effort?
  • Will you have a better boat that you want after the changes are finished?
These are the questions I would ask myself.

Regarding the soft deck. @DArcy and @mikeracca provide insight into the labor that is involved. For many who attempt to fix a soft deck, they learn it takes more time than they imagined. If this is not a deterrent then why not go for it. Again do you like the boat enough to do the work that may take 6 months to get it looking decent? Many a free boat has had soft decks. Many a project boat has never returned to the water.

That said. There are boats that call to new owners. That owner will do anything to get the boat and play with the boat.. Spending more on the boat than most would care to consider. When done they have a one of a kind boat that is their own.

Let us know what path you take.
 
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Feb 18, 2022
440
Catalina 36 Port Orchard
That said. There are boats that call to new owners. That owner will do anything to get the boat and play with the boat.. Spending more on the boat than most would care to consider. When done they have a one of a kind boat that is their own.

Let us know what path you take.
That is the exactly what happened with me and Luna. I had found her in August last year, and kept tabs on her from the marina manager and last month I found out when the auction was and 3 weeks ago I got my C30. And Luna is a boat that most would have never touched at all… she is a dirty girl!
 
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Aug 23, 2016
50
N/A N/A Texas
Thanks to all have replied, it was very insightful and thought prevoking.

I'm still now trying to decide what I will do. Thanks again!
 
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Jan 19, 2010
1,299
Catalina 34 Casco Bay
You have the S/A to realize the prospects of being upside down with this boat. That said the easiest way to answer your initial ask is by asking you this.... Are you really looking for a project boat? If the answer is no... move on.. Don't forget to double your expected costs to cover contingency costs...
 
Aug 23, 2016
50
N/A N/A Texas
I am getting some really good advice from all of you and it is very much appreciated. I think what I am going to do is just have it hauled out, see what the bottom looks like, the rudder looks like it what you would expect after sitting an 1 and a half years, and if it doesn't need anything super expensive in addition to a bottom job I think I could buy this boat and as 1 said, make it my own.

Here are some pictures. The one chain plate that can be seen, at the very top of that chain plate, it's was easy to push that my finger went inside the bulk head. The others seemed fine, the wood intact they were bolted to



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Jan 11, 2014
13,055
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
The one chain plate that can be seen, at the very top of that chain plate, it's was easy to push that my finger went inside the bulk head. The others seemed fine, the wood intact they were bolted to
This is a pretty big job. The old rotted section of the bulkhead will need to be removed and a new bulkhead installed. Depending on the damage it may be possible to scarf in a new section of bulkhead, if not the bulkhead needs to be completely removed and a new on installed.

If you have the woodworking skills to do this, then it can be a DIY. If you have to pay to have it replaced or repaired (correctly) then the cost will likely exceed the value of the boat. Yard rates are now running from $100 to $150 an hour.
 
Apr 8, 2010
2,139
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
If you have the woodworking skills to do this, then it can be a DIY. If you have to pay to have it replaced or repaired (correctly) then the cost will likely exceed the value of the boat. Yard rates are now running from $100 to $150 an hour.
Well stated!

One caveat, if I may. Old boats seldom have any measurable "value" except in satisfaction and fun for the family that enjoys them.
IF..... you buy an older boat with 'good bones' and remake it into a new(er) boat, that money will never return to you as actual money. We are, after 25 years+, into out boat about 3X it's market value, and that's OK for us. As they say on the internet: "VMMV".... :)
Heck, we have friends with small planes, and they think we are getting by really cheap with our nautical hobby!
:)
 
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Feb 26, 2009
716
Oday 30 Anchor Yacht Club, Bristol PA
I'm not going to agree with anyone on this you should not buy the boat (if you didn't buy it already) it just needs too much even though it's pretty inside. Truthfully, after people pay for a survey they buy the boat because they don't want to lose the money for
the survey but, in the end it's going to cost you a lot of money and a lot of time.

It all comes down what do you want to do? Work on a boat for the next 2 to 10 years? Or go sailing very very soon?

Oh and you really need to have the boat pulled if not for any other reason just to clean her bottom after a year-and-a-half
 
Jan 7, 2011
5,694
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
Those pictures look very good…but if the survey shows some areas of concern, then you need to truthfully ascertain if you can do that sort of work yourself, or can afford to pay someone to do it for you. At least the serious stuff …stuff that can sink your boat or bring down the rig...

My first boat was a 1996 Hunter 280. Very low maintenance required, as she was open very good condition. My current boat is 10 years older (1988-built) and needs much more care and feeding. But after owning the Hunter for 5 years before buying the O’Day 322, I feel much more comfortable taking care of the maintenance.

So be realistic of:
1) What the boat needs to be safe and sound
2) Your skills and time to dedicate or your funds to pay for the work
3) How much time you want to work on the boat vs sailing

Greg
 
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Jan 11, 2014
13,055
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I do think this boat has potential, it just needs these items addressed. If I do all the work myself, except for the bottom job, 2 grand but doesn't include any repairs of blisters. I feel as though worst case scenario would be spending 5 grand or less including bottom job and still not be upside down in this boat compared to others Irwin 31's on the market nationwide.
The bottom is the least of your concerns. The bottom will need power washing and the old bottom paint, at least what's left of it can be sanded off. The rest of the job is just labor intensive and the least skilled folks in the yard will be doing it. This is basically a low skilled grunt job.

The biggest problem is the rotted bulkhead. This is a significant structural issue. It must be done and done right or else the boat is unsafe. The job will require removing some of the interior structures cutting out the old plywood, installing new and reassembly. If the yard does this, the cost will run close to or into 6 figures. Just for comparison, I recently had the transmission replaced on my boat. The cost was close to $10,000, of which only$2.5 K was for the transmission itself.

The price for this boat would need to be very attractive, in the very low 4 figure range and I would need to have cheap and convenient place to store the boat for a year or two before I would consider buying it. Be aware there is a reason it has sat unsold for a year and a half.
 
Aug 23, 2016
50
N/A N/A Texas
I have been on the fence about which way to go with this boat, and your comments, and advice are helping me with the decision I will make this coming week. I am doing my best trying to keep the decision non-emotional which is hard I have to admit.

I have the money and enough skills I think to take on something like this, and smart enough to know when I need to stop and ask for some advice.

I do have woodworking skills, some painting with an air-powered spray gun which I own. I have some experience refurbishing a Glastron once and I thought it looked great after much-wet sanding and then with my spray gun, applying coats of clear after each wet sanding. However, I have never replaced a bulkhead or performed the work required for repairing the soft spots so the process of doing so does not intimidate me that much. I have also performed some fiberglass work on another boat I once owned and that worked out well for me.

In closing, thank you all for helping me with what I will decide this coming week.
 
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Aug 23, 2016
50
N/A N/A Texas
Thanks, Dave, and I agree with your assessment. The boat has been sitting that long because the owner had purchased a much larger boat and left this in a slip.