I am thinking about a larger boat as I near retirement. I looked at a Island Packet this weekend and was not really interested for several reasons. However I asked to have the engine started to determine condition and was told a broker cannot start the engine without a deposit for sea trial. This seems a little much to me but I am new to working with a broker. Is this normal? Thanks
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This sounds Odd
to me. We purchased our last boat through a broker.. He had no hesitation about showing/operating any of the systems (including starting the engine) as we looked at boats. I do not know if this a common practice or not.... The broker we worked with was pretty easy going and a little bit of a "shoot from the hip" kind of a guy.
to me. We purchased our last boat through a broker.. He had no hesitation about showing/operating any of the systems (including starting the engine) as we looked at boats. I do not know if this a common practice or not.... The broker we worked with was pretty easy going and a little bit of a "shoot from the hip" kind of a guy.
Sea Trial
Why would he ask for a deposit for a sea trial? The purpose is to determine if the engine will start and run. Never heard of a deposit for anything until it's a done deal and the deposit is toward the purchase price.
Why would he ask for a deposit for a sea trial? The purpose is to determine if the engine will start and run. Never heard of a deposit for anything until it's a done deal and the deposit is toward the purchase price.
Sounds wierd to me too
I have only worked with 2 brokers, but both of them were quite open and agreeable. If you are serious about a boat then you should make an offer and schedule a survey and sea trial, but I wouldn't think that something as simple as an engine start would be a problem.
I have only worked with 2 brokers, but both of them were quite open and agreeable. If you are serious about a boat then you should make an offer and schedule a survey and sea trial, but I wouldn't think that something as simple as an engine start would be a problem.
I agree, sounds odd.
Brokers have been taken a beating on this web site lately. It will make me all the more appreciative when I find a good one for my next purchase. I have made two inquires on boats thru brokers this week and haven't heard back from either one. I guess one answer may be to build a relationship with a good broker, return his calls and don't blow off appointments, I would think with a rapport the good brokers will take the time to start a dozen engines. Anyway, good luck with your search, Jack
Brokers have been taken a beating on this web site lately. It will make me all the more appreciative when I find a good one for my next purchase. I have made two inquires on boats thru brokers this week and haven't heard back from either one. I guess one answer may be to build a relationship with a good broker, return his calls and don't blow off appointments, I would think with a rapport the good brokers will take the time to start a dozen engines. Anyway, good luck with your search, Jack
Car Salesman
As you probably experienced with shopping for cars there are good salesman and those who "play games". You are the customer and the broker should do everything possible to make you happy, anything short of that makes the broker a "game player" and life is to short to deal with those idiots. I wonder if the owner of the Island Packet would have minded if you had started the engine, especially if it was one step closer to an offer. Plenty of used boats out there and brokers who actually want to sell them, the rest are just wasting your time, and the owners as well.
As you probably experienced with shopping for cars there are good salesman and those who "play games". You are the customer and the broker should do everything possible to make you happy, anything short of that makes the broker a "game player" and life is to short to deal with those idiots. I wonder if the owner of the Island Packet would have minded if you had started the engine, especially if it was one step closer to an offer. Plenty of used boats out there and brokers who actually want to sell them, the rest are just wasting your time, and the owners as well.
broker
as far as i know, it's quite normal; who wants a broker giving sail boat rides to anyone who comes along. we broke all the rules - used gene colvin of westbrook, ct, brewers, used his surveryor ken johnson - and are just completing our second season with a wonderful '91 catalina 30 with no negative surprises at all. something told us - correctly - that these were two honest men.
as far as i know, it's quite normal; who wants a broker giving sail boat rides to anyone who comes along. we broke all the rules - used gene colvin of westbrook, ct, brewers, used his surveryor ken johnson - and are just completing our second season with a wonderful '91 catalina 30 with no negative surprises at all. something told us - correctly - that these were two honest men.
Sounds normal to me
Boat brokers are not like car salesmen. They do not own the product, but are trying to broker the sale between the owner and buyer based on the sellers requirements. You post said "not really interested for several reasons" As the owner, if my diesel engine is started I want the engine to be run for a specific amount of time and under a proper load before it is shutdown again. As an owner I instruct the broker to my wishes, and you can bet that each and every tire kicker that stops by my boat will not be allowed to have my engine started. Sea trials and or a diesel survey are the proper time for this to occur. Again I can only draw conclusions based on the context of your post. Best of luck in your search.
Boat brokers are not like car salesmen. They do not own the product, but are trying to broker the sale between the owner and buyer based on the sellers requirements. You post said "not really interested for several reasons" As the owner, if my diesel engine is started I want the engine to be run for a specific amount of time and under a proper load before it is shutdown again. As an owner I instruct the broker to my wishes, and you can bet that each and every tire kicker that stops by my boat will not be allowed to have my engine started. Sea trials and or a diesel survey are the proper time for this to occur. Again I can only draw conclusions based on the context of your post. Best of luck in your search.
Brokers
You think that's bad? The primary sailboat broker in Atlanta wouldn't start the engine or even give the owner my offer unless I gave him a 10% deposit. He also refused to give me the owner's name so I could ask him questions about the boat (unless I gave him the deposit first). I blew them off after this happened twice and I bought from another source. I resented the fact that they made me feel like I was somehow trying to cheat them out of their lousy commission.
You think that's bad? The primary sailboat broker in Atlanta wouldn't start the engine or even give the owner my offer unless I gave him a 10% deposit. He also refused to give me the owner's name so I could ask him questions about the boat (unless I gave him the deposit first). I blew them off after this happened twice and I bought from another source. I resented the fact that they made me feel like I was somehow trying to cheat them out of their lousy commission.
On the other hand...
If a person is really interested in a boat (and I mean, seriously interested) then a 10% deposit is fair. Giving the name of the owner is a sure way to introduce too many variables in the process (or having somebody do an end-around, which could indeed lead to them loosing their 'lousy commission' which happens to be their paycheck!) Remember, the owner CHOSE to go THROUGH a broker, perhaps because they didn't want to be answering questions from everyone who kicked the fenders and made low-ball, non serious offers? A broker in this case serves as a screen for the seller. It seems odd to ask for a deposit for a sea trial, but not to ask for a deposit in preparation for a sea trial (that is, an offer.) As for starting the engine, Steve M gives the best reasons why one shouldn't just "Start 'er up". Another very good reason is that insurance premiums change if the broker is in any way in "control" of the vessel (and yes, that includes starting the engine.) In Michigan, the worker's comp category for agents who control a vessel with passengers is the same category as test pilots. (That category level is dramatically reduced if you're actually a licensed captain though...) Think about that insane premium for a moment, and just to start an engine!? How many people would ever think to make an offer on a house with no deposit, ask for the owner's name (to circumvent the Realtor) and request a 'test overnighter' when purchasing a house? Why do we get in such a huff about these things when we buy a boat, which can be a significant investment? Generally speaking, a broker is like any other profession - you get good, you get bad, but it's probably not fair to malign the entire profession based on the actions of some. Regards, Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer
If a person is really interested in a boat (and I mean, seriously interested) then a 10% deposit is fair. Giving the name of the owner is a sure way to introduce too many variables in the process (or having somebody do an end-around, which could indeed lead to them loosing their 'lousy commission' which happens to be their paycheck!) Remember, the owner CHOSE to go THROUGH a broker, perhaps because they didn't want to be answering questions from everyone who kicked the fenders and made low-ball, non serious offers? A broker in this case serves as a screen for the seller. It seems odd to ask for a deposit for a sea trial, but not to ask for a deposit in preparation for a sea trial (that is, an offer.) As for starting the engine, Steve M gives the best reasons why one shouldn't just "Start 'er up". Another very good reason is that insurance premiums change if the broker is in any way in "control" of the vessel (and yes, that includes starting the engine.) In Michigan, the worker's comp category for agents who control a vessel with passengers is the same category as test pilots. (That category level is dramatically reduced if you're actually a licensed captain though...) Think about that insane premium for a moment, and just to start an engine!? How many people would ever think to make an offer on a house with no deposit, ask for the owner's name (to circumvent the Realtor) and request a 'test overnighter' when purchasing a house? Why do we get in such a huff about these things when we buy a boat, which can be a significant investment? Generally speaking, a broker is like any other profession - you get good, you get bad, but it's probably not fair to malign the entire profession based on the actions of some. Regards, Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer
Very interesting points, Dave...
But the analogy of a house to a boat is apples to oranges. Maybe to cars but not to a house. In buying a house, there is no deposit to see if the house is in working order. I see you point about insurance but have no knowledge in that field. When I go into a house, I make sure everything is working. If interested, then yes, deposit to escrow is apropos. I personally would not want to deal with a broker, but I know I will have to one day. They have car and house payments and sit on a lot of inventory. They’re crude and crass in the way the treat others. Their attitude of "if you don't like it, so some where else" bothers me. I am sure they get a lot of looky-loos, but one of those could be a serious buyer acting like a looky-loo. One should treat each potential customer as a serious buyer. I hope that when I go to look at some older (new to me) boats I am treated as a serious buyer. I mean, I did do the research to the boat that I want and if I am asking to look at a particular boat, that must mean I am a potential buyer. Interesting thread.
But the analogy of a house to a boat is apples to oranges. Maybe to cars but not to a house. In buying a house, there is no deposit to see if the house is in working order. I see you point about insurance but have no knowledge in that field. When I go into a house, I make sure everything is working. If interested, then yes, deposit to escrow is apropos. I personally would not want to deal with a broker, but I know I will have to one day. They have car and house payments and sit on a lot of inventory. They’re crude and crass in the way the treat others. Their attitude of "if you don't like it, so some where else" bothers me. I am sure they get a lot of looky-loos, but one of those could be a serious buyer acting like a looky-loo. One should treat each potential customer as a serious buyer. I hope that when I go to look at some older (new to me) boats I am treated as a serious buyer. I mean, I did do the research to the boat that I want and if I am asking to look at a particular boat, that must mean I am a potential buyer. Interesting thread.
broker
again, maybe some people have it backward. by the time we saw the boat we finally bought we had seen so many dogs that we were more than willing to write a check for a deposit since we had an idea of what we were looking at. of course, that check was fully refundable pending the sea trial and a survey. the broker knows what he has in hand and can spot a waste of time tire-kicker who either doesn't, or pretends not to, have an idea of the value of the boat in question. what would have starting, and even running the engine for a while have told you? if the engine was no good, a decent survey would have found that, and the seller and broker know that. what would be to point of accepting for sale a boat where the engine sounds like a bucket of bolts as soon as it is started? how far would such a sale ever go?
again, maybe some people have it backward. by the time we saw the boat we finally bought we had seen so many dogs that we were more than willing to write a check for a deposit since we had an idea of what we were looking at. of course, that check was fully refundable pending the sea trial and a survey. the broker knows what he has in hand and can spot a waste of time tire-kicker who either doesn't, or pretends not to, have an idea of the value of the boat in question. what would have starting, and even running the engine for a while have told you? if the engine was no good, a decent survey would have found that, and the seller and broker know that. what would be to point of accepting for sale a boat where the engine sounds like a bucket of bolts as soon as it is started? how far would such a sale ever go?
Sort of, Brian
Brian, What do you think the response would be if a person looking at a house asked for a formal home inspection before making an offer? ;-) As a guy who's sold a fair share of houses, I'd just laugh. In fact, beyond a normal looksie at the house, I wouldn't let anyone crawl into the attic if they didn't have an offer on the table... my time is money too.
(Can you imagine the reaction if somebody fired up the dishwasher, recycled the water softener and started to take the furnace apart during an initial look? LOL ) I'm working with a very low pressure broker right now who has the right mix of knowledge and laid-back touch that I respect. If I had encountered a jerk he'd wouldn't get the time of day from me. Funny thing, I interact with Realtors the exact same way. In the end, Morty is spot-on, any deposit is contingent on the sea trial and survey, so if you're serious, no harm in laying a deposit down. Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer
Brian, What do you think the response would be if a person looking at a house asked for a formal home inspection before making an offer? ;-) As a guy who's sold a fair share of houses, I'd just laugh. In fact, beyond a normal looksie at the house, I wouldn't let anyone crawl into the attic if they didn't have an offer on the table... my time is money too.
(Can you imagine the reaction if somebody fired up the dishwasher, recycled the water softener and started to take the furnace apart during an initial look? LOL ) I'm working with a very low pressure broker right now who has the right mix of knowledge and laid-back touch that I respect. If I had encountered a jerk he'd wouldn't get the time of day from me. Funny thing, I interact with Realtors the exact same way. In the end, Morty is spot-on, any deposit is contingent on the sea trial and survey, so if you're serious, no harm in laying a deposit down. Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer
Brokers
Hello, As some have already written, there are good and bad brokers. And it's pretty easy to tell which is which. Regarding your question, if you are serious about buying the boat, you would put down a fully refundable deposit. Then you can schedule a survey and sea trial. If you won't provide a deposit, why should the broker bother to start the engine? You're clearly not very serious about the boat. What would hearing the engine do for you? If the broker tells you the engine runs great, then you have to trust him until the survey. If you aren't going to buy the boat (after survey, etc.) then don't expect the broker to start the engine and / or demonstrate the rest of the ships systems. I am now selling my boat. I will be happy to show the boat to prospective customers. But no one gets sea trial, or test sail until I have a deposit. I would probably start the engine, but only since I would need to bring the boat to the dock anyway (it's on a mooring). Barry
Hello, As some have already written, there are good and bad brokers. And it's pretty easy to tell which is which. Regarding your question, if you are serious about buying the boat, you would put down a fully refundable deposit. Then you can schedule a survey and sea trial. If you won't provide a deposit, why should the broker bother to start the engine? You're clearly not very serious about the boat. What would hearing the engine do for you? If the broker tells you the engine runs great, then you have to trust him until the survey. If you aren't going to buy the boat (after survey, etc.) then don't expect the broker to start the engine and / or demonstrate the rest of the ships systems. I am now selling my boat. I will be happy to show the boat to prospective customers. But no one gets sea trial, or test sail until I have a deposit. I would probably start the engine, but only since I would need to bring the boat to the dock anyway (it's on a mooring). Barry
Sounds like the process was working as designed
Your experience seems normal, and I think it actually shows the broker you were dealing with has the integrity to respect the boundaries of the process. Buying a boat is not buying a car, and it's not buying a house. It's buying a boat, and when you buy from a broker, you have to make an offer before you get to do anything other than look at the goods. It is just the nature of the beast. And in terms of all the comments about brokers, I would have to say that the brokers I worked with last year when I was searching for a boat are some of the most patient people on the planet. Several of them shared extensive knowledge, impressions, and time with me during at least a year while I figured out the type of boat, the condition, the age, and the features I was willing to actually pay for. Use the brokers you speak with as a resource, do your homework by consulting Practical Sailor boat reviews and this Web site, and then find a boat that you do like enough to make an offer on. In any case, all you really have to do is look at the overall condition of a boat early on in the process. If the boat is in great condition and looks like the owner loved it, then the engine is probably is the same shape. Good luck.
Your experience seems normal, and I think it actually shows the broker you were dealing with has the integrity to respect the boundaries of the process. Buying a boat is not buying a car, and it's not buying a house. It's buying a boat, and when you buy from a broker, you have to make an offer before you get to do anything other than look at the goods. It is just the nature of the beast. And in terms of all the comments about brokers, I would have to say that the brokers I worked with last year when I was searching for a boat are some of the most patient people on the planet. Several of them shared extensive knowledge, impressions, and time with me during at least a year while I figured out the type of boat, the condition, the age, and the features I was willing to actually pay for. Use the brokers you speak with as a resource, do your homework by consulting Practical Sailor boat reviews and this Web site, and then find a boat that you do like enough to make an offer on. In any case, all you really have to do is look at the overall condition of a boat early on in the process. If the boat is in great condition and looks like the owner loved it, then the engine is probably is the same shape. Good luck.
I would have stared round into his eyes and said..
..look, I am really insterested in buying this boat. I am not going to give you a deposit to start the engine nor am I interested in a sea trial. Are you interested in selling this boat or not? If your not, let me know and I will talk to your manager and find out who the owner is and let them know about my wonderful experience dealing with this office. abe
..look, I am really insterested in buying this boat. I am not going to give you a deposit to start the engine nor am I interested in a sea trial. Are you interested in selling this boat or not? If your not, let me know and I will talk to your manager and find out who the owner is and let them know about my wonderful experience dealing with this office. abe
continued.................
he/she may then have responded that he/she is sorry but they are under strict instructions from the owner not to start the engine at which time he/she may offer to call the owner to make arrangements to further accomodate you the customer. If he/she responds with a f you kind of attitude..........then I would not deal with him. If you really want that boat, then find yourself a broaker who will deal on your behalf.... and do follow up by talking with management and find out who the owner of the boat is. my 2 cents abe
he/she may then have responded that he/she is sorry but they are under strict instructions from the owner not to start the engine at which time he/she may offer to call the owner to make arrangements to further accomodate you the customer. If he/she responds with a f you kind of attitude..........then I would not deal with him. If you really want that boat, then find yourself a broaker who will deal on your behalf.... and do follow up by talking with management and find out who the owner of the boat is. my 2 cents abe
If you were in the market for a used car
Would you place a deposit BEFORE they started the engine? Not even a Rolls-Royce dealer would demand such. You wouldn't buy a house before you walked through and turned the faucets on and off and opened the windows. If the broker wants to sell the property then he/she accomodates the buyer to a reasonable degree.
Would you place a deposit BEFORE they started the engine? Not even a Rolls-Royce dealer would demand such. You wouldn't buy a house before you walked through and turned the faucets on and off and opened the windows. If the broker wants to sell the property then he/she accomodates the buyer to a reasonable degree.
broker
guys, economics 101 - supply and demand. the best boats, the best airplanes, the best cars,.... are going to have quick buyers. you can demand anything you want, but the guy who knows value and is willing to write a check will get the best every time. that's how it's always been, that's how it is now and that's how it will always be.
guys, economics 101 - supply and demand. the best boats, the best airplanes, the best cars,.... are going to have quick buyers. you can demand anything you want, but the guy who knows value and is willing to write a check will get the best every time. that's how it's always been, that's how it is now and that's how it will always be.
Actually Ross...
Ross, Try to go into a Rolls Royce dealer (or a Ferrari dealer, or anything high-end like that) and ask for a test drive. Or even to turn the engine on. I'd put money down that they'd ask for a credit check first. Buying a boat is not like buying a Rolls-Royce, and the analogy doesn't really work. Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer
Ross, Try to go into a Rolls Royce dealer (or a Ferrari dealer, or anything high-end like that) and ask for a test drive. Or even to turn the engine on. I'd put money down that they'd ask for a credit check first. Buying a boat is not like buying a Rolls-Royce, and the analogy doesn't really work. Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer
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