New (to me) International FJ, drainage + repair questions

[Qorgyle]

Hello! New member here, and new owner of an International FJ (aka Flying Dutchman Junior). Since it seems mine is unusual in that it has seating (most pictures that I find have wider sides, and you just sit on those), here's a picture:

I trailered it down to the lake where I was planning to launch it, and upon arrival I discovered water pooling in the center. Long story short, the previous owner sprayed foam inside the seats as a sealant, and it appears to be retaining water from who knows where. Owner claims it's been covered all along so we're both a bit baffled. I've also learned a valuable lesson to REALLY look inside any compartments I can't see inside of. Guess that'll be for next time - fingers crossed it hasn't been there for years, working away on the internals. :/

Anyway, for the moment I'd like to figure out what I can do about this. I'm going to pump the water out manually first, then see if I can dry it out from the inside. Assuming the problem will reoccur though, I'd like to add drainage holes to those seats - the current ones you can see a few feet sternwards from the traveler are sealed with foam and only seep, very slowly. My question is, once I figure out where the bulk of the water is and drill some holes (through what I assume is some sort of wooden core) how do I seal them to prevent water retention in them? Just some sealant? Also, what size and type of drill bit would I use for this, is there a standard size for these drainage plugs? Guessing a Forstner will probably cut through the glass and core (whatever the core IS in these FJs)?

Thanks for any assistance. I'm probably going to be coming back for fiberglass/resin/epoxy help for some of the minor cracks, or if I manage to figure out where the leak is. I've watched videos, but don't have any practical experience on weights, type of weave, how many layers, etc. At least I think the resin is straightforward if you just go with West Systems (I plan to).

 

[rgranger]

It looks like you have an access port here

What happens when you open that? Can you see the foam? Is the foam soft and squishy or firm and dry? If it is squishy, you got a real mess on your hands and you will have to try to remove most of that foam. I'd suggest putty knife duct-tapped to the end of a shopvac hose and go after it.

 

[Simon Sexton]

I'd like to add drainage holes to those seats

Good morning @Qorgyle! Although the Flying Dutchman variant is a little different, I used to race FJs in high school, so I've messed with them quite a lot. I've never heard of anyone spraying foam inside the hull, but it couldn't hurt anything. I believe the water inside the cockpit may have been inside the hull already and leaked into the cockpit during transport due to excessive movement. Drilling holes in the seats is a bad idea; if and when you capsize (these boats aren't very forgiving due to a rather short daggerboard), you'll need the hull to be watertight as possible. I'd run a shop vac into the service ports to try and remove any water left inside, and you should be alright to sail after that. Enjoy, she looks like a fun boat!

 

[Qorgyle]

What happens when you open that? Can you see the foam?

You know, I opened it and for some reason (it'd been a long day of installing trailer lights and trailering for the first time ever already) I utterly failed to take pics inside it. I know there's some water and I could feel the foam - but it was damp (from the water), but firm. So hopefully that's ok.

I believe the water inside the cockpit may have been inside the hull already

Definitely. We discovered this before ever setting down on the water.

Drilling holes in the seats is a bad idea

Ok, good to know. I was going to put in drain plugs and seal them with WS5200 but I'll hold off in that case!

remove any water left inside, and you should be alright to sail after that

I'm going to be taking the shopvac and a little manual pump (with a flexible hose to get in the corners) so I think I'm ready.

Thanks all! Will report findings Sunday when I get back down there.

 

[PaulK]

My father's center-console skiff had foam "floatation" poured into the bilge up to the cockpit sole. It absorbed water over the years until it was totally saturated -- like the foam they put in flower arrangements to hold the stems in place. It must have weighed more than a ton by the time we figured it out. Of course it had been put into a dry, totally encapsulated fiberglass space by the builder, so it would never have any water intrusion problem..... Guess they forgot they were building a boat. We had to rip the whole cockpit sole out and then dig it out with a garden spade. Each shovelful weighed about 10 pounds and was dripping water. If your tanks are full of water-absorbing foam like this, opening up the inspection hatches to let it "dry out" will probably take as long to work as it took for the water to get in there in the first place. You probably don't want to wait five years or so for that to happen, so it looks like cutting open the seats to remove the foam will be necessary if there's a lot of it. A circular saw not set too deep will make a relatively clean cut. If you plan the cuts carefully you might be able to remove each seat in one piece so that you'll be able to glass them back in place after you replace the foam. Be sure the replacement foam is NOT hygroscopic. (Blue styrofoam might be a good choice.)

 

[Qorgyle]

Of course it had been put into a dry, totally encapsulated fiberglass space by the builder, so it would never have any water intrusion problem..... Guess they forgot they were building a boat

Yeah, I wonder if this is in fact what it was. It's not squishy, but it may in fact be a nice big solid chunk of wet foam.

We took it out yesterday and I promptly capsized it, and it promptly inverted (everyone's ok). I was able to tip it back up after a while of flailing around and trying to remember what to do, but it was sitting very low in the water when I got it righted. I wonder if it's because of the foam and its entirely possible waterlogged state ... had to get a tow back.

Is it possible to sail a dinghy on just the headsail? I think I need more basic handling/line awareness practice before I need to have the state of uh, combat-awareness readiness that having the main up seems to require. I mean yes, I most like zigged when I should've zagged but my main has no reefs so not sure how else I can reduce the sail area ...

cutting open the seats to remove the foam will be necessary if there's a lot of it.

I think there's a chunk in the fore and a chunk in the aft - the mid part is hollow, both access ports are unblocked - but hard to tell how much. Unfortunately I haven't done any fiberglass work so this is out of scope for the moment - I feel like attempting such a major task for my first attempt is probably not optimal. Heck, I'm not even sure where to buy resin or fiberglass (although it appears that this place would do just fine). Oy. And here I thought with so few moving parts this would be straightforward but I guess when your hull doesn't float very well ...

I mean, it DID sail. It's the inversion rapidity and how low it got in the water when righted. Maybe it would've been better if I got to righting immediately and I'm overstating the problem? I guess we'll see next time I take it out because I suspect this will happen again.

 

[rgranger]

If it is styrofoam then it is probably not water logged. But if it is water logged and you need to chissel it out.... you can get to it by making additional access ports like the one you already have. And you may want to put foam back in there for future capsize events but just jam in block and don't spray it in. I have had very good results cutting up the pink (and blue) foam board used to insulate house foundations and jamming that into small spaces on my boats. The stuff is made to be in the ground so it is very water proof.

 

[Simon Sexton]

Is it possible to sail a dinghy on just the headsail?

Good afternoon @Qorgyle ! Glad to hear you got the boat out on the water. Sometimes the best way to find a solution to a boat problem is to experiment. Based on your capsize drill, it sounds to me like there's a spot somewhere in the cockpit that is susceptible to leakage. @rgranger makes some great points here about the foam. As for sailing a dinghy with just the headsail, it can be done, but you won't be able to point the boat any higher than 75-90 degrees into the wind. Without the mainsail the jib will only push the bow of the boat downwind. You may be able to build up some speed before trying to round up again, but when you do, it won't last long.

 

[AaronD]

@Qorgyle: I've mostly sailed a small keelboat, and my new-to-me dinghy is awaiting her first splash. So I'm anything but an expert here. But I know you can get inflatable flotation bags of various sizes - another option to fill a leaking seat (or to add flotation to the bow cuddy area that would otherwise fill with water in a capsize). Probably more expensive than foam, but easier to fit into awkward spaces and easier to remove as needed.

E.g. SB2302 Buoyancy bag - Pillow bag 36 " X 12" - HOLT

I have no recommendation of that specific bag or source - if you do enough research to have a recommendation, please let me know.

 

[LloydB]

Reaching against true wind can be done with a jib only but the degree of gain would depend upon the size of both the sail and the wind. That's the method I used when first sailing my boat after having early experience with a pram with a single sail. My goal was to avoid capsize, irons and wind gusts then get back to the dock mostly dry. Just the jib to keep it simple and safer to find out how the boat moved under sail without a worry for the main or the boom. I asked a guy at the dock with a similar boat a question about how to do something and he offered to show me what to do. I was very grateful for a while as he showed me what it could do and how to do it and explain everything and then added now when you've learned all of that you'll be able to do stuff like this!! As you can see I came back (dry as it turned out) still learning but in many ways a wannabe sailor as I get seasick and don't race yet.

 

[Qorgyle]

inflatable flotation bags

I'm headed out to West Marine today to see what they have. Definitely picking up a fender to stick on the mast, and maybe a couple of others just to keep inside the cockpit, or maybe stuffed into the empty space in the bow. Will definitely look into bags, that's a great idea for the under-seat space.

My goal was to avoid capsize, irons and wind gusts then get back to the dock mostly dry.

Yeah, that would be the idea. My concern is the lack of a backstay on this rig, but I guess the runner would still hold the mast in place.

 

[LloydB]

I think a fender might be a bit too heavy but there are mast balls specifically made for the top of the mast for lightweight and to avoid a turtle. Now that we are woke there's probably a different name for those.

 

[Qorgyle]

a fender might be a bit too heavy

I found a teensy G-2 fender (just 5 inches wide by 15 long) that seems like it's fine hanging out up there. I'm going to secure it better next time. Didn't get a chance to test out whether it provides enough flotation though, as we sailed only on the headsail and were able to minimize heel that way. 3 successful sails with 4 people inside, so that's a pretty good result.

Reaching against true wind can be done with a jib only but the degree of gain would depend upon the size of both the sail and the wind.

Very true, especially as the headsail on this is quite small. With the lighter wind we were limited to maybe 5 degrees off of beam reach but the occasional stiffer gusts gave us something more like a close reach. In fact, we couldn't quite make it in on the first day and had to break out the oars - second day was far better, with something closer to 15 (pretty much spot on with what @Simon Sexton posted) and we were able to tack right back to the ramp. Definitely doable, if you're ok with a very relaxed sail and a flexible sail plan (i.e. lots of tacking). Here's the second half of our outing, trying to get back (forgot to turn on the tracker until we were quite a ways out). The wind collapsed entirely even though it was initially giving us an almost perfect line back to the ramp, so it was back out and try again.

Also the wind on a lake is bonkers. I had no idea just how variable it could be, but now I sure do! This entire last leg was done without resetting the sails and pinching as close as possible.

Next up will be an attempt to get the mainsail up and try this again. Unfortunately I'm not sure how to do that AND get 4 people in, as I suspect bodies will *have* to move around to make up for the heel and with 4 people in there's just no room for us ahem, older folk, to do so in a prompt fashion. There's two more larger fenders in the boat now to provide more flotation so hopefully between that and the improvised mast float there'll be less worry and it'll be easier to retrieve. I may still pick up some of those inflatables to stick under the seats though, a 100 bucks isn't too much if it assists in recovery so thanks for that link @AaronD .


We'll see what happens, probably in a couple of weeks (next few weekends are booked with other things, alas). In the meantime I might do a rental here in town, there are 22-23' keelboats that I have access to on an hourly basis - might be a way to ponder alternatives.

 

[rgranger]

I've often wondered about turtling my hobie 16'. So far I have been lucky not to. In my "wonderings" I've thought about keeping one of these on board

I can use it for a bumper but I could also attach it to a halyard and haul it to the top (bottom) of the mast if I turtled and need to float the mast back to the surface.

In your case you could attach a designated block to the top of your mast and shackle it to the float before you head out. Cleat the bitter end near a shroud and if you needed it, you could swim over to the shroud and start pulling. That should bring the ball to the "top" of the mast and float it back up. When not turtled, you can use it as a bumper.