I am a new/novice sailor who will be moving back to the Gulf Coast of Texas soon. I want to purchase a boat to learn to sail (but preferably something that I can grow into without having to purchase a different boat every few years). What are your suggestions? Thanks.
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You don't give your audience much to work with. Is there a budget? Are you in a small bay or planning to venture into the Gulf? Will you be alone or with a family? Do you want to cruise or race? Do you want trailerable or have it stay at the dock or mooring? Just a couple of things that come to mind.
You learn a lot about boat systems if you move up through sizes over a period of time.
I have heard many stories of beginner sailors becoming overwhelmed with maintaining a larger boat with little prior experience. The boat usually goes on the market shortly thereafter.
Sailing is easy to learn. Boat maintenance is very expensive. If you are a DIY, that helps but it takes years to learn how to properly maintain a large(30+ ft.) boat.
I have heard many stories of beginner sailors becoming overwhelmed with maintaining a larger boat with little prior experience. The boat usually goes on the market shortly thereafter.
Sailing is easy to learn. Boat maintenance is very expensive. If you are a DIY, that helps but it takes years to learn how to properly maintain a large(30+ ft.) boat.
While this is true, starting with a larger, but simple boat also has some advantages, mostly in the fact that you can grow into more complex systems as fast as you want / can afford, and get the experience of figuring out how to add something like an auto pilot to a boat that doesnt have one, as opposed to just learning how to use/maintain one, while having the.comfort and space of a larger vessel while learning.Tim R. said:
I would suggest looking in the 26-28ft range, with an outboard engine. Also look for one that has a portal potty instead of a flushing head (much less maintenance to learn up front, and you can always upgrade that when you are ready) If your goal is to eventually upgrade to a larger boat, you probably dont want a trailer sailor.
Dont buy a fixer upper / project boat or you will get slammed with maintenance problems right away. Get something that is almost ready to sail away, but is missing some things the other boats have that you want. It will cost more to add things yourself than to buy the boat with them already installed, but you will learn a lot by doing the planning and installation yourself, and be much more comfortable with the maintenance required if you add things over time (not to mention most of on here find it fun doing projects on our boats, you probably will too).
If you're really a complete novice, I'd find a yacht club or sailing group first, take lessons, try out different boats. You'll quickly see what boats you're comfortable in and what boats you're not. Make friends with lots of sailors and weasel your way into day-sails and races with them.
If you really want to get a boat right away, I'd go fairly small with something like a Sunfish, Laser, or comparable. You'll tend to see really well what things do to how the boat handles. As you get more experienced, you can race those boats. Many good friends of mine in their AARP years still race their sunfish and lasers.
Or, you can get a boat in the 20' range. Before Katrina, we had a Santana 20 (older model). Paid $1500 for it, including the trailer. Had a cabin, but nothing in it. Strictly a daysailer, though in a pinch you could sleep in it (think fiberglass tent). No complicated systems, very minor maintenance issues, great boat. Loved it. Now it's part of a highway somewhere.
If you really want to get a boat right away, I'd go fairly small with something like a Sunfish, Laser, or comparable. You'll tend to see really well what things do to how the boat handles. As you get more experienced, you can race those boats. Many good friends of mine in their AARP years still race their sunfish and lasers.
Or, you can get a boat in the 20' range. Before Katrina, we had a Santana 20 (older model). Paid $1500 for it, including the trailer. Had a cabin, but nothing in it. Strictly a daysailer, though in a pinch you could sleep in it (think fiberglass tent). No complicated systems, very minor maintenance issues, great boat. Loved it. Now it's part of a highway somewhere.
I go along with FourPoints except that I suggest that you get a boat with a diesel inboard. Learn about the diesel so that you are prepared when you are looking to move up. The experience will be invaluable.
I suggest the outboard because having a inboard diesel adds a large amount of additional maintenance for a new boat owner (lots of additional hoses, fittings, through hulls, prop shaft seal etc). If he isn't familiar with diesel maintenance and operations, trying to learn that and the rest of the boat maintenance required at the same time, may result in him getting overwhelmed / doing damage to the boat or engine, or ending up in a dangerous situation.
If you're going to start with a larger boat, please get lessons for you and the crew. Not only will this help to tame the CF factor and help to keep the waterways safer (for you, your crew and other boaters) but also make the experience more pleasurable for everyone from the very beginning.
Make a mistake on a Sunfish and you might have to buff someones hull, make the same mistake with a 6,000 lb boat and gross damage and serious injury or worse can be the result.
Also, the easier a boat is to use the more it will get used.
Make a mistake on a Sunfish and you might have to buff someones hull, make the same mistake with a 6,000 lb boat and gross damage and serious injury or worse can be the result.
Also, the easier a boat is to use the more it will get used.
I have 2 comments. First is that a port a potty is absolutely NOT the way to go, especially if you ever intend to have a female on board. They may work ok for campers and things that lay flat, but out sailing YOU WILL HAVE A MESS!
Second, I agree with the diesel inboard, or any inboard over an outboard. The inboard is in a much better position to give immediate response, and the fuel consumption is outstanding. Outboards are slow to respond, hard to maneuver with all the lines a sailboat has, and require just as much if not more maintenance as the inboard.
I went from a cat 25 to a hunter 34, and my biggest advice for someone who expects to do any serious water time is an inboard, wheel steering, and a working head.
Second, I agree with the diesel inboard, or any inboard over an outboard. The inboard is in a much better position to give immediate response, and the fuel consumption is outstanding. Outboards are slow to respond, hard to maneuver with all the lines a sailboat has, and require just as much if not more maintenance as the inboard.
I went from a cat 25 to a hunter 34, and my biggest advice for someone who expects to do any serious water time is an inboard, wheel steering, and a working head.
I sailed and cruised for quite a few years with my wife, son, and a porta potty. No mess, but not pleasant to empty. If you stay in a marina each night the porta potti can work OK, though a holding tank is certainly preferable.
Inboard is always better than outboard. I would not ignore a boat with gas if it had an Atomic 4, though. Fine engine.
I always have liked the Catalina 27 for a starter cruiser. Reasonably price, available, decent sailor and large enough to have an inboard and holding tank and standing head room.
Inboard is always better than outboard. I would not ignore a boat with gas if it had an Atomic 4, though. Fine engine.
I always have liked the Catalina 27 for a starter cruiser. Reasonably price, available, decent sailor and large enough to have an inboard and holding tank and standing head room.
I guess I often forget that most outboards are not setup like mine is... Mine is electric start with remote shift and throttle controls in the cockpit, and it's fixed in place so it doesn't turn, and doesn't even have a tiller arm attached. So for "immediate response, ease of maneuvering" etc, I sacrafice almost nothing with the outboard, except big seas can sometimes cause the prop to cavitate. Fuel consumption is a little worse, but not horrible, I normally cruise at 4-5kts using a little under a half gallon per hour, but can back it down a knot and average closer to a quarter gal/hr around 3-4kts.
I should have said look for an outboard with elec start, remote shift / throttle like my setup is, then you gain more than you give up over the inboard... if it's a regular pull start outboard with a tiller hanging on the stern, then it does get rather cumbersome at times...
I should have said look for an outboard with elec start, remote shift / throttle like my setup is, then you gain more than you give up over the inboard... if it's a regular pull start outboard with a tiller hanging on the stern, then it does get rather cumbersome at times...
there are porta potties made for installation and long range cruising. see islander 44. see many other boats of the same era. they are installed with pumpout capability and a 5 gallon tank under. they also are able to be hand pumped overboard if so desired, at sea. these boats in which these porta potties were installed were meant for long range cruising as well as short time cruises. my ericson has this set up. the porta potty involved is a thetford 875 model and is great. prevents sinking of boat by mistake.
When we looked at boats a 1979 Cal 27-2 had a porta potty, a tiller, and an A-4 gas engine.
I'd have to admit that with a porta potty and a gas engine, the boat had no smell whatsoever. We would own that boat if we made up our mind on the spot, but we called two days later to offer the asking price and she was already sold (price had just been reduced so it was no surpise).
Our Starwind had some features which we thought were on the plus side ... diesel inboard, fixed head, and wheel steering. We still love our boat after 7 years but we found that:
1. The diesel engine is noisy and one cylinder shakes like hell, it belches black smoke and soot when it is started, and diesel fuel stinks and it is hard to get rid of the odor from even tiny leaks. The smell and noise of a diesel engine is far more objectionable than a gas engine when they are running. OTOH, complaining about diesel engines to sailors is like swimming against the tide, and you may as well get used to the fact that owning a diesel with your boat is inevitable if you are going to have an inboard engine.
2. The head was poorly maintained by the previous owner and a bad odor permeated the entire cabin and all of the cushions. I ignored that problem when we purchased the boat, thinking that it would easily be fixed. It wasn't. We replaced all the cushions and fabric at significant expense. I replaced the head and the hoses, which was a really nasty job. I would replace the tank if I could get it out without cutting out fiberglass. It has taken a lot of time and effort to get rid of the stink - way more than I anticipated and I would never make that mistake again.
3. Wheel steering in the cockpit of a 27' boat is a marginal upgrade. If I was a regular single-handed sailor, I would convert this boat for a tiller. Most sailors consider a wheel as an upgrade, though, so it is neither here nor there in my mind.
If I were you, not that I am, I would look for a fixed-keel boat with a shoal draft. I wouldn't waste time with a smaller boat where you will immediately feel cramped. I would also be leery of anything trailerable if you intend to keep the boat at a slip or mooring. The fixed keel should give you more security in the relatively higher wind areas where you may be sailing. Do not be concerned about your ability to handle a boat in the 5,000 to 8,000 pound range. Like somebody said, sailing is the easy part of the learning curve, the boat systems and maintenance is the hard part.
I think there are a lot of Starwind 27's down in your area and at a good price, I wouldn't hesitate. They are a speedy little performer with a lot of nice attributes for a small cruiser. Just find one in good condition, that is important. You want to sail when you buy the boat, not get stuck on the hard with repairs.
I'd have to admit that with a porta potty and a gas engine, the boat had no smell whatsoever. We would own that boat if we made up our mind on the spot, but we called two days later to offer the asking price and she was already sold (price had just been reduced so it was no surpise).
Our Starwind had some features which we thought were on the plus side ... diesel inboard, fixed head, and wheel steering. We still love our boat after 7 years but we found that:
1. The diesel engine is noisy and one cylinder shakes like hell, it belches black smoke and soot when it is started, and diesel fuel stinks and it is hard to get rid of the odor from even tiny leaks. The smell and noise of a diesel engine is far more objectionable than a gas engine when they are running. OTOH, complaining about diesel engines to sailors is like swimming against the tide, and you may as well get used to the fact that owning a diesel with your boat is inevitable if you are going to have an inboard engine.
2. The head was poorly maintained by the previous owner and a bad odor permeated the entire cabin and all of the cushions. I ignored that problem when we purchased the boat, thinking that it would easily be fixed. It wasn't. We replaced all the cushions and fabric at significant expense. I replaced the head and the hoses, which was a really nasty job. I would replace the tank if I could get it out without cutting out fiberglass. It has taken a lot of time and effort to get rid of the stink - way more than I anticipated and I would never make that mistake again.
3. Wheel steering in the cockpit of a 27' boat is a marginal upgrade. If I was a regular single-handed sailor, I would convert this boat for a tiller. Most sailors consider a wheel as an upgrade, though, so it is neither here nor there in my mind.
If I were you, not that I am, I would look for a fixed-keel boat with a shoal draft. I wouldn't waste time with a smaller boat where you will immediately feel cramped. I would also be leery of anything trailerable if you intend to keep the boat at a slip or mooring. The fixed keel should give you more security in the relatively higher wind areas where you may be sailing. Do not be concerned about your ability to handle a boat in the 5,000 to 8,000 pound range. Like somebody said, sailing is the easy part of the learning curve, the boat systems and maintenance is the hard part.
I think there are a lot of Starwind 27's down in your area and at a good price, I wouldn't hesitate. They are a speedy little performer with a lot of nice attributes for a small cruiser. Just find one in good condition, that is important. You want to sail when you buy the boat, not get stuck on the hard with repairs.
I have to agree with Winkfish that maybe you should hold off on buying just yet. Find a sailing club, join race crews, and rent different boats to get some experience sailing different types and sizes of boats, like: Sunfish or similar, Flying Scot or similar, Hobie 16 or similar, swing-keel trailer-sailors like Catalina or MacGregor, racing keel-boats, cruising keelboats,.... Once you learn to sail, and learn what kind of sailing you like to do, that will help you decide what you 'need' in a boat, vs. what you'd 'like' in a boat, and what you absolutely don't want. There's no one size fit's all.
What are you going to be doing? Where do you plan to keep the boat? Driveway or Marina? What is your budget? With what you have supplied so far, you are most likely to get the wrong advise.
Budget
Where the boat will stay.
Frequency you will be able to use it.
A good place to start talking about what will work the best.
Oh and welcome to the addiction.
Budget
Where the boat will stay.
Frequency you will be able to use it.
A good place to start talking about what will work the best.
Oh and welcome to the addiction.
It is doubtful that you will find a boat that you will want to learn on and not expect to have "BBF" (big boat fever) within a few years.
You really need to have a budget & what tolerance for repairs. I would suggest a boat with an inboard diesel engine (but a gas engine should not be ruled out). How much do you think you are going to use it and is it going to be mostly a day sailor or will you be spending extended lengths of time aboard.
There are lost of issues but you will need to get some basics out of the way before you jump in.
You may also want to consider some sailing lessons before you purchase too. If you have a significant other you need to have that person be in on this purchase too. I have seen a lot of people buy a boat and their signficant other does not like it because of the work involved, boat scares the hell out of them, too much sun.... You name it and it can happen.
You really need to have a budget & what tolerance for repairs. I would suggest a boat with an inboard diesel engine (but a gas engine should not be ruled out). How much do you think you are going to use it and is it going to be mostly a day sailor or will you be spending extended lengths of time aboard.
There are lost of issues but you will need to get some basics out of the way before you jump in.
You may also want to consider some sailing lessons before you purchase too. If you have a significant other you need to have that person be in on this purchase too. I have seen a lot of people buy a boat and their signficant other does not like it because of the work involved, boat scares the hell out of them, too much sun.... You name it and it can happen.
Ahh, the thrill of starting over! I began my sailing in O'Day 16ft. daysailers and Sunfish sailboats. My first boat that I owned was 19ft. long, then I bought a 22ft. boat, then a 27ft and now I own a 33ft boat. However, I also own a 14.2 Catalina and a Sunfish. What I'm getting at, is that you learn so much as you go along there is no replaceing the experience or thrill of small boat sailing. If you have to, rent; but sail small as long as you can it is a great teacher. I sailed for some years with a friend on a 28ft boat and learned the systems before I bought my Catalina 27. We all have to start somewhere but a big boat first, may cause you to turn away from sailing. Try chartering a large boat after you have some sailing experience.
There isn't a boat out there that is loved by some and hated by others; both for very good reasons.
My suggestion would be to buy a large trailerable. It keeps the expenses down while you learn and you can still cruise a couple of hundred miles if you're game. Then, if you're properly and hopelessly infected (sailing IS a disease), a larger boat to suit your wallet and location. Our Lancer 25 sleeps five but is only suitable for two for more than a couple of days. She's moored in the driveway.
My suggestion would be to buy a large trailerable. It keeps the expenses down while you learn and you can still cruise a couple of hundred miles if you're game. Then, if you're properly and hopelessly infected (sailing IS a disease), a larger boat to suit your wallet and location. Our Lancer 25 sleeps five but is only suitable for two for more than a couple of days. She's moored in the driveway.
I can hardly fault any reply to this thread so far, it is so interesting reading each and every reply, we try giving the best advice (as fellow sailors do) based on what we know and based upon our passion level. This is where it can get a little tricky, I can throw as much time into my boat as I choose but my neighbor at the marina wants to sail but not clean or maintain his yacht. He is always saying to me "gee you yacht looks great" my reply to him is "get of your lazy @$%&, wash your boat at the end of the sailing day and work on preventative maintenance", I believe this is the secret to yacht ownership at what ever level you enter the game, big or small. Be prepared to put in the time, you will be rewarded.
Budget, available time & surplus cash is another key ingriedient, as we all know keeping a yacht can be costly but it does not have to be if you purchase well and can invest time for maintenance and time to seeking knowledge in regard to her up keep.
My first yacht purchase was a Beneteau Oceanis 361, I spent three years doing my due diligence before I decided to purchase a yacht, I could not be more happy with my purchase, I had the budget, I had enough funds to make changes, to keep it in a marina, and time to do all my own maintenance through seeking knowledge as to how, why and when to do it.
By the way, I am not time rich...?
Budget, available time & surplus cash is another key ingriedient, as we all know keeping a yacht can be costly but it does not have to be if you purchase well and can invest time for maintenance and time to seeking knowledge in regard to her up keep.
My first yacht purchase was a Beneteau Oceanis 361, I spent three years doing my due diligence before I decided to purchase a yacht, I could not be more happy with my purchase, I had the budget, I had enough funds to make changes, to keep it in a marina, and time to do all my own maintenance through seeking knowledge as to how, why and when to do it.
By the way, I am not time rich...?
Do you know the sailor's situation? Do you talk with him? If you were time limited would you clean or sail? I know sailors who love their boats. They are old and so are their boats which means both require more TLC. Then along comes one of life's curve balls like an illness, either to themselves or a loved one. Now the choice, sail or clean? Bottom line, I like to give the benefit of the doubt. Until I walk in their shoes.
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