New sailboat owner!

[kenn]

When we went boat-shopping 3 years ago, we initially spoke with a surveyor and he was willing to do the survey, but he was also frank that for little boats it can be reasonably assessed by a knowledgeable amateur, given a few guidelines.

I tend to research things alot (part of the fun, right?), so I read a few books on selecting and inspecting a boat, and I found an owners' group for the boat we were interested in. Plus, I'm fairly handy... and the boat we wanted was only 19'. So, by the time we had a couple of candidate boats to look at, I was pretty comfortable with making my own inspection. I reviewed the inventory, I spent about 40 min inspecting the boat, I even made the owner put it in the water to test for leaks

Re insurance, the replacement value of a used small boat isn't alot so the insurer and I quickly agreed on a replacement value cap, so in our case a survey wasn't required.

Finally - small boats have small problems, relatively speaking. The boat we settled on had some rotted interior plywood bulkheads, and I used this fact to knock down the price. This defect didn't impede the boat's sailing characteristics, so we were sailing almost immediately, and I completed the last of the bulkhead replacements this spring.

 

[dbeausoleil]

one size does not fit all small sizes...

I've read lots of advice on this topic here, but didn't see the obvious: You should survey the boat before you buy it unless you do not need to.

The fact is, no small boat sailor worth his salt would survey a 22' boat. Untold numbers of boats are sold and bought of this size each year w/o survey. The rule is simple. If you're new to sailing, you should survey a boat prior to buying it or your $2000 joy could easily be a $10,000 nightmare. Then, even if you fix it all, what do you have? -a 22' day-sailer worth (at best), $3,500.00 if it has a decent trailer ($1,100 of value).

Small boats don't need surveys because you can access everything and view it, touch it, feel it. Things to check are rust stains where leaks occur into the people tank. Fresh caulk AROUND windows indicates hack work. Windows are caulked BEHIND their pressure plate. All too often, hackers caulk around chainplates, windows, railings, stanchions, etc. None of which holds since everything on a sailboat gets tweaked under stress. It's a fairly straightforward process... Does everything electrical work? Does everthing with plumbing work? Are the batteries load tested? Does the engine run well? What condition is the running rigging? What condition is the standing rigging? Are the chainplates attached to the deck (poor design) or mounted to the hull? Is the bow anchor point/chainplate mounted simply to fiberglass? Or is it backed by some non-twisting metal? Wires on sailboats wear out just like tires on cars but don't show metal fatigue. How old are the shrouds and stays? Are nav lights cloudy? If so, consider replacing nav lights can easily hit $500 depending on style, mounts, standoffs, etc. Is the keel sound/not cracked? And, of course, the sails... you can feel a good thickness. Paper thin sails blow out as fast as paper sails in a good wind. What about stress cracks? If they exist, so shall they grow w/o corrective action. Under chainplates is particularly dangerous since that fact, +high wind+incorrect tension+inexperience (typically) results in demasting/flipping, masts stuck in mud, injuries, loss of sunglasses, etc.

Bottom line is if an inexperienced sailor bought the boat w/o a survey, the owner's much more in need of extensive education followed by investing in parts for the boat that'll make it sturdier/safer, not in getting someone's professional opinion for a fee. Anybody around a marina w/a beer will be happy to be critical of your boat for you for free at that point.

 

[Capn Bill]

Always!

Hi!

I just purchased a 1982 Hunter H22 swing-keel, and I'm reading through the owner's manual and lots of other documentation I got from it. I also found this forum, and figured you guys would be a great resource as well.

My question:

Since it's a fairly old sailboat, I checked everything I knew how to check prior to purchase: There's no weak spots in the hull, the outboard runs and needs a small tuneup, the sails are all solid, all of the rigging is solid and is not corroded (newly replaced), there is fresh caulk around the portholes and the companionway, the swing keel is a smooth operation, and the boat rides high in the water with the bilge pumps rarely needing to run.

What else should I be checking for on a boat this old? What are some common missteps I should avoid (aside from the entire "never own a hole in the water you throw money into" thing).

Thanks!

It's not the size of the boat or the amount of the investment. It's about an "expert" telling you that the boat is worth your investment. I'd do it. Capn Bill on STARGAZER

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Hmm, anyone answered your question yet? As a boat buyer, if you don't feel comfortable making a decision on the condition of a boat, then it makes sense to engage a surveyor. Of course it will cost you money, but a small boat survey will not cost as much as a large boat survey. You might also consider the fact that many boats that are 10 years or older will require a survey anyway for it to be an acceptable risk to an insurance company, so you may have to spend the money anyway. If the latter is not the case and you have a friend who is fairly knowledgable about boats, then perhaps he/she can save you a buck and give you an assessment if you feel he or she has the qualifications to offer some sound opinions. Of course there are good and bad surveyors, so you have to ask around for a reputable one. The surveyor should be an uninterested party working for you and not the broker or dealer. If he does his job, then they will save you some money in the long run, if the boat has problems, and perhaps even your life if the boat really has big problems and you are unable to access these problems on your own. Certainly, a small boat does not have very many systems for a surveyor to dig into. It is pretty simple in comparison to a boat with an inboard and lots of systems, gear and hidden places.

 

[Windrifter]

One safety item that should be checked on swing keel boats is the pivot bolt, (or pin could be fractured or bent if the boat has ever been run aground at high speed) that the keel hangs on and the cable that raises and lowers the keel. It probably is not a problem with a newer boat but, there has been reports of cables breaking, ( and that makes for big trouble when trying to pull your boat out of the water). Also I have heard of boats keels ending up at the bottom if the pivot bolt fails. Sail Safe.

 

[BobM]

My 2C

Pivot bolt is a biggie. Tough to replace your keel if you lose it somewhere. You tested it for smooth operation, which is good.\

Maine mentioned the chain plates. I'll just add the caveat to check the surfaces they bolt to. My boat seemed in good repair until we found where the owner had tried to hide rot in the bulk heads from leaky chain plates.

The nice thing about a small boat is the small problems . The only other thing I would do is to sound the deck to find out if it is wet. Sound the rudder too while you are at it, but if it has sat on a trailer for the most part it is probably sound.

Don't forget to change the impeller in the outboard unless it is indicating like a racehorse. I make it a policy to change them anyway, just so I know it has been done.

 

[Jalepeno]

I don’t know how it is down there, but up here on the west coast of Canada there are two distinct types of surveys:

A “Purchase Survey” is very comprehensive and will cost about $15 to $20/foot. The surveyor will make a detailed equipment inventory list with professional options on value, condition and cost to repair/replace, detailed condition of the hull (blisters), keel (joint/rust), through hull fittings, hull/deck joint, moisture intrusion, deck de-lamination, rudder, etc. This will normally require the additional cost of a half lift haul-out for an additional cost about $100-$150. A separate surveyor is normally used for the mechanical (engine and running gear) for about $200 to $300 and then another separate surveyor is used for the rigging for about another $200 to $300. Always do your own detailed pre-purchase inspection as described in the above Boat Inspection Trip Tips and in books before making the basic decision to purchase particular boat. These surveys are optional but very good investments on a larger boat. They are performed at the buyer’s cost after you make an offer to purchase subject to survey(s), sea trial and insurability. The survey reports with value and repair/replacement costs is used to negotiate the final price not to make the decision to make an offer. This is a similar process to buying a house and using a building inspector. All of the surveyors must be licensed and are normally recognised by your insurance company. If not, then you will need a separate insurance survey later.

An “Insurance Survey” normally does not require a haul-out as it basically checks that the boat is safe, provides an inventor of the equipment with estimated replacement values, an estimated market value of the boat and possibly a deficiency list. The insurance company will insist that the deficiencies be corrected within a specific time period and if they are gross deficiencies they may insist on a resurvey. The cost of an insurance survey is usually about $10/foot and usually must be repeated about every five years.

Most of the insurance companies can provide a list of approved / accredited surveyors in your local area for you to choose from. The surveyor is an independent contractor that is not affiliated with any marina, broker or insurance company. Boat insurance can have a number of components to it, replacement value of the boat and contents, and third party liability. Also you may need to show that you have taken sailing boating lessons from an accredited sailing school and/or have a number of years of experience to get insurance at a reasonable rate. Boat insurance for sailboats around here is not expensive, mine costs about $350/year. All reputable marinas require a minimum of one million dollars liability insurance for permanent or transient moorage. However of you have a small or trailerable boat you may be able to add both value and liability insurance to your homeowner policy.

The bottom line is that if you have a small simple / low price boat you may not need any surveys of you can get insurance added to your homeowner policy.

 

[bffatcat]

Survey???

Its too late for that now: But do you have a friend or aquaintence that knows something about sailboats. If so ask if this person might look the boat over for you a quick look from someone experienced might point out some things in need of attention that you missed.

When I bought my last boat 10 years ago I didnt get it surveyed. I knew what was wrong with it when I found it sitting in a field beside lake Champlaine. I had 40 years experience then And I paid accordingly.

About the pressure alcohol stove Ive still got the one that came with a boat I bought in 1970. It worked fine then and it still does Lot of sailors never learned how to use one
correctly and they make them nervous. You can Read my comments on them in the archives. After reading my remarks and trying the stove if u still want to get rid of it the choice is yours

 

[WritersWeb]

I'm 73, worked in/and owned several boatyards/NY and Florida over 50 years.
Owned 20-25 boats, 16-40ft, power and sail/wood and plastic in various stages of decomposition.
One came with recent survey, and you would never know it was the same boat.
Survey depends on who pays for it/buyer or seller, IMHO....

Last two were Mac 26X...1998
Recently went thru 4 hurricanes in one season on ICW in FL
llittle damage, except to mine/my dog's psyche. blew over 160 at nite....
..sold boat at a profit....online.

Now have 1997 X-boat/better sails/ Honda 50/radar/other electronics/NEW double-axle aluminum trlr/etc.
Bought it on the spot w/inspection.(wrapITup/hookITup/towAway)
WOULD GO ALMOST ANYWHERE WITH IT!

 

[Squadron]

Yeah, my question got answered awhile back. I was just looking for advice for a new sailor and some stuff to look out for, and I certainly got that!

I'll spend some more time examining the swing keel and making sure it is in great condition before we take her out, and I tend to agree with you guys after reading your comments. Unless I need one for insurance, I probably won't get a survey done.

 

[Darwin19229]

Congratulations on your purchase. I owned a 1981 Hunter 22 for 5 years and really loved the boat. Took it to the North Channel area in the Great Lakes and sailed all over Chesapeake Bay with it. A couple of comments, the boat doesn't really have a swing keel, it is actually a centerboard, as the ballast is carried in the bilge area. However, do check the pivot pin for leaks, wear etc. There really shouldn't be any water in the bilge so as one poster said, find the leak and fix it.

Best wishes,
DPH

 

[jimmcgee]

Congratulations on your new baby. 22's are a lot of fun to sail and I'm sure you'll enjoy her.

If you're looking for things to check pick up Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat". It'll give you a good start on a lot of different things to look at, but as a few others have said 22's are simple boats. If there are problems you'll find them.

Jim

 

[JoeWhite]

I baught my H25.5 5 years ago without knowing anything about boats and did not have it survayed. Since it is less that 26' your home owners insurance will cover it and you do not need to buy a separate insurance. I replaced its ourboard and installed new roller jib. Later I replaced standing rigging and a new main. Runs greate. I found a leak from its original through hull depth sounder. I tool it out of the water and replaced it myself. No more water in the bilge. Good luck.

 

[Joe]

regarding alcohol stoves........ I've been using my Origo for years with absolutely no mishaps of problems. The Princess (pressurized alcohol) stoves that were OEM on many boats of that era are quite different than the Origo style.... Heck. if you've been following the Jessica Watson blogs you'll see her proudly showing off her Origo that was added to her galley.

 

[Mike Pz]

Congratulations! I bought a Hunter 23 back in 1992 and had a great time with her...Now I'm on my 4th sailboat, O'Day 25/Catalina 30/IP-26 MK-II, and never had a survey. I did the survey myself and thorughout the years fixed and repaired damage as I found it... The most expensive boat was the IP 26 for 12k, just bought it April '09. I knew all the owners and was comfortable with my knowledge and ability to fix most problems, and it worked out so far! Get out and enjoy the sail ! Be safe... R/Mike Pz, Makani Koa III, Tampa, FL

 

[Pegfrayne]

We just bought a 1983 Hunter 20 one year ago so we are on the other side of this with a little experience. We found certain problems that may have deterred us at the time, but the price was so cheap that we still made out all right. Even though the sails looked great, we discovered that they were overstretched and were not holding the boom up at the right angle. we are now replacing the sails. We are taking the opportunity to install a roller furler. The outboard was old but functional, but we are now having trouble with it...it just can't be "trusted". The older, smaller boat is very basic: no fancy rigging, no electronics. It requires a lot of pphysical work to raise and lower the sails, but it makes us better sailors. if we do move up to a bigger boat, it should seem "easy"

 

[OdayDave]

Hi Sean -

This question really comes down to your level of risk aversion. Some people are highly risk averse and so a survey is a necessity for them. It sounds to me like your level of aversion to risk is similar to mine. About 10 years ago, I bought a 22 foot boat for $3900 (motor, trailer, boat, all old sails, old rigging, but everything was solid). I never even considered a survey. Instead, I took a friend along who went over it carefully with me. He looked for the basic issues that it sounds like you considered. Quite frankly, the systems on a 22 foot boat are not all that complicated, and in the grand scheme of things, not that expensive to replace. I've certainly upgraded things over the years and have maintained the boat to the best of my abilities.

My advise is get out and sail. You will learn a lot about your boat just by being on it. Situations present themselves that cause you to consider tweaks to improve the boat and its performance. I'm not suggesting you put yourself in dangerous situations, but all boat systems can be improved and you will figure this out as you get more experience on the boat. Also, use this forum to get your questions answered. There is a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips.

You won't regret the purchase, but if you do, you can always sell the boat. A solid fiberglass boat will last forever, or at least as long as you will need to use it.

Good luck and congratulations.

Dave
O'Day 222

 

[fox islander]

I've had 3 sailboats. The first 2, a catalina 22 and a hunter 23, I did not have surveyed...they were both less than $5,000. I did spend the time to go over them quite welll. The most expensive single item on both boats was the outboard motor...I had had OB on the hunter checked out by a pro.
My current sailboat is a catalina 30...yes I had that surveyed.
Welcome to sailing...your going to love it.
-Steve

 

[Squadron]

Thanks guys, I'm glad I found this forum!

I think I agree with the sentiment that spending the money we would have taken to pay a surveyer on useful stuff (ie. upgrades, classes, etc.) will be far better in the long run.

And I can't wait to actually get out there and start having fun with her!

 

[smittywins]

How much does a survey cost typically? I bought a 25 foot C&C for 2k because the person was getting a divorce. The boat is in great shape and has nothing wrong with it, but the insurance company wants a survey. I was able to get progressive to cover it without a survey but it cost more.