New Safer Boat Stove

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Oh for Pete's sake, Ross!

Just how many puddings and custards have you ever made on an alcohol stove on a sailboat? 'Cuz that's what Ryan is working on--an alternative to an alcohol stove, not a replacement for a gas range!

 

[Ross]

Just how many puddings and custards have you ever made on an alcohol stove on a sailboat? 'Cuz that's what Ryan is working on--an alternative to an alcohol stove, not a replacement for a gas range!

I have never owned an alcohol stove and would give one boat space.

 

[Don12364]

Go For It

Good on yer Ryan. Go ahead, write your thesis, get your degree and we hope it is a first!
We'll play along with that.
But the hard bitter truth is that we don't consider our existing stoves dangerous else we wouldn't have them. We like their convenience, we don't give a fig for their efficiency as they consume so little fuel anyway. We don't like smells, either before, during or after cooking - and we are tight with our money.

Just about every house in every town in the UK uses 'natural' gas (methane) for cooking and heating. There are regulations and gas explosions are exceedingly rare and injuries even rarer.
Likewise almost all boats use Calor or GAZ for cooking (a liquefied blend of propane and butane). Again regulations abound and again explosions are almost unheard of.

Indeed Yachting Monthly magazine recently bought a tired 37' sailboat and are subjecting it to all manner of heinous practices. Shown recently on TV they had 'experts' release Calor gas inside the boat well above the "LEL" (lower explosive limit), sealed it all up and detonated it.
First try they just got a flash and NO bang plus a little smoke which extinguished within two seconds.

Second try they really did let plenty of gas in and got a magnificent bang and blew the deck off. Great to watch!
The point being that the human nose can detect the gas when it is only one tenth of the LEL so it is only dangerous if sufficient is released into a closed space - and even then you really need to try to make it go off.

So we don't buy the danger aspect either.
But good luck with the studies.
Don.

 

[JohnS]

Indeed Yachting Monthly magazine recently bought a tired 37' sailboat and are subjecting it to all manner of heinous practices. Shown recently on TV they had 'experts' release Calor gas inside the boat well above the "LEL" (lower explosive limit), sealed it all up and detonated it.
First try they just got a flash and NO bang plus a little smoke which extinguished within two seconds.

Second try they really did let plenty of gas in and got a magnificent bang and blew the deck off. Great to watch!
Don.

Woohoo! Explosions! THAT got my attention. Here's a link:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/specials/525275/how-do-you-capsize-a-40ft-yacht

 

[RyanHelfrich17]

Don,
I hear what you are saying and I myself fully agree with much of what you are saying and have heard the same sentiments from others. Boating stoves have been along for plenty of time and the regulations are in place to make them safe. Also the amount of fuel used to cook is relatively small compared to other costs that efficiency isn't a huge deal.
Wax does still have other benefits though. One is the storage. It can be thrown in a bucket and forgot about until it is needed. For years even. The other is that is blocks against a lot of foolish user mistakes that cause boat fires. On this site I saw a thread about a women who tried to pour alcohol into a 2 burner stove while the other was still lit and this caused a fire. Obviously this is a stupid mistake and everyone assumes they wouldn't make it but the truth is that it does happen. Wax as a fuel blocks against this.

The truth is though that I am not posting hear to try to convince people to purchase this. We are not at the marketing stage yet and are instead trying to determine if there is a viable market. Our sponsors are currently using the technology for camping stoves and so we were tasked with trying to find a new market to apply the technology to. We see our stove as being most competitive with alcohol stoves, and it beats alcohol stoves in nearly every way besides fuel availability.
Obviously people that do more intensive cooking probably have more advanced stove systems installed in their boats and most likely we wouldn't be able to compete with them. What we can do is offer a very safe, cheap, well performing stove that cooks better than alcohol. Now our goal is to determine how large of a segment of the market that is.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Ross]

Ryan. You may find the the catering business has a greater need for this type of system. Keeping food hot on serving tables is most often done now with jelled alcohol.
Protable cooking for such as breakfast omelets is usually done on portable gas hot plates of single burner size.

 

[alexco38]

Boating is a very small market especially for "economical" stuff. Even Raymarine has to be sold due to heavy debt. The butane stove are very cheap and quite safe. Even propane uses properly are quite safe.

Wax has a lot of good point but trying to market it may be quite costly.

 

[JVB]

Is the new fuel about the same thing as Sterno ?

 

[John]

alcohol

Don,
... We see our stove as being most competitive with alcohol stoves, and it beats alcohol stoves in nearly every way besides fuel availability.
Obviously people that do more intensive cooking probably have more advanced stove systems installed in their boats and most likely we wouldn't be able to compete with them. What we can do is offer a very safe, cheap, well performing stove that cooks better than alcohol. Now our goal is to determine how large of a segment of the market that is.

Thanks for your input.

The thing is, few new(er) boats use alcohol; the trend is towards propane. And if a boat owner wants to replace an old alcohol stove, they'd probably be looking at propane in most cases. So that's what you'd really be competing with, not alcohol.

 

[sinnettc]

Good project, I like it. My son is graduating in ME in March and he's doing his senior project right now too. I think he's spending the weekend in the composites lab building carbon fiber parts for Oregon State's 2012 Formula SAE racecar. I tried to get him to build me a mast but he said their oven is too small.

Do you work for (or own) the company or are they sponsoring your senior project like some companies do at OSU?

Ok, on to the subject at hand - small boat sailor (Capri 22) piping in here . . . I took your survey but thought I'd give my perspective since I see your stove as direct competition for what I use now.

I have an Origo non-pressurized stove. It's fine, but I don't necessarily like the smell of the boat stove fuel and I especially don't like the California carcinogen warnings plastered all over the bottle. It's been a long time since I smelled hot paraffin wax but I don't recall that it smelled that bad. I don't like that the boat stove fuel evaporates away over time, and I don't like that it can be a pain to get it going if the weather is cold or there's any breeze in the cabin. Frankly, it usually takes a minute to get it going, so a minute for a paraffin one to get to temperature wouldn't kill me. I don't like that I can't refill it if I run out until it gets completely cool and I don't like that I need to take it outside to fill it. And I especially don't like that the liquid fuel can run all over and burn us up if the stove gets knocked over while lit. The flame can be hard to see too, so it's easy to burn dinner. I *do* like that an alcohol fire can be put out with water.

Propane is fine, but you've got the bottles to deal with if you don't have room for a larger tank. I carry propane for the BBQ but we don't use it in the cabin, though i suppose we could if I wanted to bring along a coleman stove. And more bottles. There's also the whole issue of disposal of the empties while we're cruising somewhere.

Seems like an *efficient* paraffin stove would be a good alternative for us small boaters, especially if it can't spill. Size wise, I wouldn't want to see it any larger than the single burner Origo. If you really want to make it (the boat version) useful and easy to fuel, make it so you can use the little paraffin blocks they sell at craft stores and for canning. The blocks wouldn't have to fit whole, just include instructions on how to cut them to the proper size (say 4-8 pieces per block) without making a mess.

Hope this helps and good luck with your project!

 

[kenn]

Hey Ryan,

Just a note to applaud your innovative spirit, and your wisdom in actually going out to the market to bounce the idea off of us.

Please keep an open mind, but also have a big grain of salt handy as you get feedback. Great ideas will find a market, and sometimes it's where you least expected it to be.

We chose a small butane stove for our small trailerable sailboat because of:
- safe and suitable for inside and outside use (unlike some other types of camp stove)
- self-contained and small, with the aerosol-size butane can inside the unit
- fuel is widely available, and fairly easy and safe to store
- simple, nearly instant high heat output when needed (water boiling), wide heat range, fast cooldown
- overall cost ($40 for the stove), reasonable fuel cost for our occasional use, and very low maintenance

Best wishes from an engineering dropout and lifelong tinkerer

 

[Alex Dare]

Ryan,
Short answer. Yes, I think there would be a market for a heating system like yours in a segment of the marine market. Most of the posters on this board come from bigger boats and are not going to be interested in giving up the reliability and convenience of a well built propane stove/oven. Same goes for the OEM side. The recreational marine market is very very small. On the plus side however, when you look at total number of registered boats in the US, something in the range of 80 or 90% of those are small trailer-able motor boats. That, along with the small day-sailor/overnight-er is your primary market, not the guy with the 35 foot sailboat or 50 foot sport fisherman. There, you'll find quite a bit of overlap between the camping/outdoors market and the marine market. Rather than design a completely different stove, the only difference you may need to make would be to spec corrosion resistant materials and change your packaging. I would think a trip to your local Bass Pro Shop might be worthwhile for market research.
(fyi, I was a manager for a large marine retail and wholesale supply company for many years so if I can be of any help please PM me)

 

[Old Skool Neil]

I just finished your poll too. It answered one of my concerns, that being the available therms of paraffin as compared to other fuels. The lingering concern I have is the safe containment of the fuel during use in it's liquid state with open flame in the vicinity. That is exactly the issue with alcohol.

I think the safety is in the design rather than the fuel in this case.

 

[Rick Sylvester]

I gather that

since you've got a patent for this process, owners of your stove would (essentially) be buying the fuel only from you or your licensees?

 

[higgs]

I am perfectly happy with my propane stove/oven. My 5 gallon tank costs less than $10 to fill and lasts for years. I keep it turned off when not in use so danger from leaks is minimal. If it leaked into the cabin, I would smell it. If it leaked into the locker, it is vented. I think it is a reasonably safe system and would not be willing to spend the money to convert to another system.

 

[RyanHelfrich17]

I just finished your poll too. It answered one of my concerns, that being the available therms of paraffin as compared to other fuels. The lingering concern I have is the safe containment of the fuel during use in it's liquid state with open flame in the vicinity. That is exactly the issue with alcohol.

I think the safety is in the design rather than the fuel in this case.

Old Skool Neil,
The cool thing about wax is that it won't burn on it's own until it is a) a vapor or b) at it's flash point. It's flash point is well above the temperature of the fuel in the reservoir and the only vapor is leaving the wick. This means that any spilt fuel will be completely safe in almost any circumstances. The fuel literally only lights when it runs through the wick of our stove.

 

[Ross]

More houses are set on fire by candles than by cooking stoves.

 

[Bill Roosa]

I've always found the flowerpot on the stove to warm things up nicely. Course I did not try this for a 24/7 solution as I use CNG and the tank is not large enough to do dedicated heating.
How much wax are we talking about for a single days burn at 0 F on a 30 ft boat?
Can I stock the heater for a whole day or do I need to tend it from time to time?

On a related note: if your market is smaller trailer boats then I have to ask myself do they really go sailing when it is that cold? Clearly a boat ramp covered in ice is not going to be something I'd enjoy dealing with assuming the boat ramp is even open for business. I'm having trouble seeing who would buy this thing.