New Prop? my tiny prop workin hard getiing no where

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Sep 14, 2012
4
Catalina 30 tall rig Charleston
I have a Catalina 30 tall rig with a 21 hp universal diesel. Currently, I have a two bladed prop that is about the size of a four leaf clover. We can motor only about 2.5 to 3kts with a clean bottom. The engine sounds like its working really hard and we aren’t going anywhere fast or at all. How fast should I be able to motor? What type/size/pitch prop should I replace it with in order to go faster?
Thanks you for any help you can give!
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,956
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
I have a Catalina 30 tall rig with a 21 hp universal diesel. Currently, I have a two bladed prop that is about the size of a four leaf clover. We can motor only about 2.5 to 3kts with a clean bottom. The engine sounds like its working really hard and we aren’t going anywhere fast or at all. How fast should I be able to motor? What type/size/pitch prop should I replace it with in order to go faster?
Thanks you for any help you can give!
Presume this came up in the pre-purchase survey? It should have.
What are your cruising rpm's? I would take a SWAG that you are at about 2300 to 2500.

You should be going about 6 kts with a clean bottom and the M25 Universal, IMO.

Sound like you need a properly-pitched prop.
Lots of other Cat 30 owners should be checking in with the straight scoop........

We have owned a boat with the 23 hp version of that engine model for about 15 years. Very Good all-around diesels.
 
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Sep 14, 2012
4
Catalina 30 tall rig Charleston
The surveyor mentioned it, but said it would not be a big problem. It is a big problem. 2300 to 2500 is probably where we should be running. Do you know how I can find what the right size and pitch for my boat should be?
 
Jul 6, 2013
221
Catalina 30TR, Atomic 4 2480 Milwaukee
The surveyor mentioned it, but said it would not be a big problem. It is a big problem. 2300 to 2500 is probably where we should be running. Do you know how I can find what the right size and pitch for my boat should be?
CDI Propeller's website has a table of boat/engine combinations and recommended props.
 
Jun 5, 2004
241
Catalina 30 MkII Foss Harbor Marina, Tacoma, WA
...look at the extendo prop...they have one for our C30's...you end up with a 15" 2 blade.
 
Aug 8, 2009
52
Catalina 30 MkII Forked River, NJ
2 blade prop

My C30 has the 23 hp M25XP with I assume the standard two blade prop. At 2400 rpm I'm going over 6 knots.
 
Jan 27, 2012
65
Catalina 30 Vashon
I added the extendo last season and now get a whopping 5.3 kts. On a clean bottom. I must have a lota crap in my boat, because I would wet my pants if I got 6 Kent's un aided by current.
 
Apr 4, 2004
78
Catalina 30 Ladysmith
Our C30 is equipped with the 21hp M25 and the standard 3 blade "13 x 12" prop, which moves us at 5.5 knots at 2500 rpm. The 2 blade prop gives a bit more speed, but, the 3 blade gives the power we need to overcome the many contrary currents in this area.
 
Nov 18, 2012
183
Catalina 77 - 22 / 75 - 30 Lake Arthur, LA
Ok you guys. Want power and acceleration? Get an Atomic 4.

I don't want hear about explosions....non recorded

I don't want to hear about smell, none. All my friends diesels stink

Don't tell me about noise....quiet as a Honda.

Don't get algae in my fuel.

Runs and accelerates like a car, and I can work on it, just like my car.

If you are just getting in and out of your slip , or running around the bay, it's the way to go.

Only reason I see for a diesel is for cruising to Hawaii or the like. Little better mpg.
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
I'm with ya nahart but maybe we should resist treating the diesel camp like they've treated us for decades.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,956
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Ok you guys. Want power and acceleration? Get an Atomic 4.

I don't want hear about explosions....non recorded

I don't want to hear about smell, none. All my friends diesels stink

Don't tell me about noise....quiet as a Honda.

Don't get algae in my fuel.

Runs and accelerates like a car, and I can work on it, just like my car.

If you are just getting in and out of your slip , or running around the bay, it's the way to go.

Only reason I see for a diesel is for cruising to Hawaii or the like. Little better mpg.
1) OK, Keep your fingers in your ears. I saw a gasoline boat explosion at the fuel dock by our marina. Boat torn apart and windows blown out of the nearby building. While it is true that a safety-minded owner can prevent this for any boat with heavier-than-air fuels (gasoline or propane), that small % chance of a blast can not be wished away.

2) You need different friends.... our diesel has Never had an odor. Never. And, extremely few of the boats I have crewed on or delivered over the last several decades have had an odor either.

3) When you're right, your are 100% right. All the gas engine boats I have been on were very very quiet. Matter or fact our prior boat for a decade had a 10 hp Yamaha OB. Totally quiet. That was one reason our YC moved to Yamaha 25 HiThrust engines for our work boats -- massive low-end power and very quiet.

4) Whatever fuel you use can get "stuff" in it and modern gasolines are having terrible problems with the various chemicals separating out and causing spendy engine problems.

5) Small sailboat diesels were and are simpler than "car engines". As for working on your car -- yup, IF you have a vehicle from the 60's with a basic carb, before EFI became standard.

6) Getting in and out of a slip has nothing to do with type of engine fuel.

7) "Little" better mpg? Oh for Heaven's sake.
On my (watery) planet, operating fuel usage is normally about Half for a diesel, often less.

Sidebar: Against that argument, at least in the real world, was the fact that most sailboat builders in the 60's and 70's went with vastly overpowered A4 engines (30 hp on 28 foot boats!) because they got 'em cheap and because the flathead design fit easily under seats and companionways. The few boats that used a smaller two cylinder gas design probably could produce better economy.
(I used to crew on a 29 footer with a Volvo twin, gas engine. So quiet you had to peek over the transom to see if water was coming out...)

So, while you are entitled to all of your opinions, not so for all of your "facts."

LB
 
Nov 18, 2012
183
Catalina 77 - 22 / 75 - 30 Lake Arthur, LA
Good discussion.


My only question is about the gas boat explosion. Was it a sailboat?
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,956
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Good discussion.


My only question is about the gas boat explosion. Was it a sailboat?
Nope. Powerboat. Couple decades ago I did visit a local sailboat the morning after a propane explosion tore the whole deck off, tho....
:eek:
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
A,

Do this simple test for troubleshooting your prop/speed problem. This has worked for me & others over the years. You can do this test while tied at the dock & confirm your findings testing while underway.

Keep it simple & not fret: The proper propeller size for your boat and engine combination is based in part on the wide open throttle (WOT) operating range for your particular engine. You can find this in your operator's manual, expressed in terms of a certain horsepower at a certain r.p.m.
The goal in propeller selection is to determine what style and size will maximize your boat's performance, while allowing your engine to operate in the recommended r.p.m. range. The correct propeller will prevent the engine from over-revving, yet allow it to reach the minimum r.p.m. where the maximum horsepower is produced, with ideal engine loading.

Using your existing propeller, determine your maximum obtainable r.p.m.. If during this test, you begin to exceed the maximum rated r.p.m. of the engine, reduce the throttle setting. If the engine over-revs beyond the maximum recommended r.p.m., you may need to increase the pitch of the propeller. Increasing the pitch increment by 2" will result in approximately a 200-400 r.p.m. drop. Also, switching from an uncupped to a cupped propeller will reduce your r.p.m (see "Cupping" paragraph below). The cupped propeller of the same pitch and diameter will typically reduce your r.p.m. by approximately 200. If you cannot reach maximum r.p.m., then pitch should be decreased. These recommendations apply to single engine installations only. For most twin engine installations it is necessary to increase pitch by 4".

Once your WOT r.p.m. falls within the recommended range of the engine manufacturer, you have a propeller that is suited to your boat with respect to r.p.m. However, you may not be satisfied with your boat's skiing performance or trolling speed. It may be advisable in these circumstances to have multiple propellers, each to accommodate different boating activities. In all likelihood, more than one propeller will be suitable for your boat and motor combination, depending on your usage. Ski boats need more top end speed, and should choose a prop with a higher pitch. Cruisers and houseboats need more performance at displacement speeds, and should use a prop with a lower pitch to acheive low-end power.

It is imperative, however, that the WOT r.p.m. fall within the range specified by your engine manufacturer. If your engine is not able to reach this r.p.m. range, it's operating under an extremely loaded condition and premature failure is highly likely. Our Manager of Technical Services Bob Adriance would like to remind you that the wrong prop can wreck an engine. "I've talked to mechanics that think using the wrong prop is the single greatest cause of premature engine failure," says Bob.

While most of these comments are geared to outboard engines, some also pertain to inboards. There are other factors that can adversely affect the performance of your propeller. One of these is dings on one or more blades. Another would be having the blades out of alignment, as would occur if you hit something. Either of these could cause vibration or undue stress and ultimately damage your transmission, cutlass bearing and other components. Usually the best way to deal with a propeller issue with an outboard is to get a new prop if it’s damaged or, if you’re not sure you nave the correct prop, try on different ones, with the recommendation of a qualified dealer, until you’ve got it right. But with inboards typically you’ll need to have the propeller(s) pulled and sent to a good prop shop so that they can work their “magic” on your existing prop to repair it or determine that you need another.

This includes things such as “swinging it” to determine balance, checking for alignment of the blades, and actually working on blades, such as adding or removing cup and many other adjustments. You would give them all the information about your boat that they’d request and describe fully all the issues you’re experiencing.
Propeller Size

The size of a propeller is defined with two sets of numbers, diameter and pitch, with pitch always following the diameter.
Diameter

The diameter is two times the distance from the center of the hub to the tip of the blade. It can also be looked at as the distance across the circle that the propeller would make when rotating.
Pitch

Pitch, the second number listed in the propeller description, is defined as the theoretical forward movement of a propeller during one revolution. Since there is almost always a small amount of "slip" between the propeller and the water, the actual distance travelled is slightly less.
Cupping

Many of today's propellers incorporate a cup at the trailing edge of the propeller blade. This curved lip on the propeller allows it to get a better "bite" on the water, resulting in reduced ventilation and slipping, and allows for quicker acceleration, or "hole shot," in many cases. A cupped propeller also works well in applications where the motor can be trimmed so that the propeller is near the surface of the water. The cup will also typically result in a higher top end speed.
Some Problems to Avoid

Ventilation

Ventilation occurs when surface air or exhaust gasses are drawn into the propeller blades. When this happens, boat speed is lost and engine r.p.m. climbs rapidly. This can result from excessively tight cornering, a motor that is mounted very high on the transom, or by over-trimming the engine.
Cavitation

Cavitation (which is often confused with ventilation) is a phenomenon of water vaporizing or "boiling" due to the extreme reduction of pressure on the back of the propeller blade. Many propellers partially cavitate during normal operation, but excessive cavitation can result in physical damage to the propeller's blade surface due to the collapse of microscopic bubbles on the blade. There may be many causes of cavitation, such as incorrect matching of propeller style to application, incorrect pitch, physical damage to the blade edges, water flow obstruction caused by parts of the boat’s hull or running gear to close to t the propeller and others.
Return To BoatTECH

CR

Taken from: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/articles/propellers.asp
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
4) Whatever fuel you use can get "stuff" in it and modern gasolines are having terrible problems with the various chemicals separating out and causing spendy engine problems.
Is that so?? I must be blessed then because I've been running E10 for years with zero separation, zero problems and zero spendy repairs. The current gas in the tank is a year old, no problems.

I do not use fuel dock gas but rather schlep it to the boat in jerry jugs from a high volume station, I replace my water separating filter annually, I rebuild my carburetor bi-annually regardless of performance, all my fuel hoses are alcohol rated and my deck plate O-ring is replaced regularly. As for the ethanol blended gas itself, no problems whatsoever.

I'd like to know where you got YOUR information.
 
May 29, 2013
130
catalina 30 dana point
I am running an Atomic 4, 2 blade prop, clean bottom (I have it cleaned every month by my diver, and get 6 knots easy @ 2000 rpm.

Quiet as a mouse, no fumes ever and very smooth, Always run the blower for 5-10 minutes before we depart and after returning and do tank inspections every week.

I am very pleased. Can also tell you I had many maintenance issues with diesels but that could have been PM practices, too.
 
May 15, 2011
63
Hunter 216 Noble, OK
Our '79 has an atomic 4 with a 2-blade prop and we just made a motorsailing trip over to Catalina yesterday running around 6 knots or a little better at just under 2000 rpms.

Our bottom is cleaned monthly and the seas were nice and calm.

I'm considering swapping out my prop for a 3-blade to get the cruising rpms up a bit higher and for better backing performance.
 
May 29, 2013
130
catalina 30 dana point
Brad, I have the same setup and get about the same performance. Curious, why would a 3 blade prop give better performance in reverse? I would consider changing because reverse for me is "weak" and I assumed it was boat/water/prop location that caused it. I have a windward side slip, pull it into reverse to stop when docking and it can get a little hairy! It never seemed quite as responsive in reverse as forward. When I exit the slip and pull it into forward, I can durn near bury it!
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
It never seemed quite as responsive in reverse as forward.!
Contributing to that is reverse has a reduction where forward is 1:1. If considering the Indigo 3 blade winglet prop specifically designed for the Atomic 4, you will realize greater RPM due to reduced pitch and diameter (to be expected with ANY prop of reduced pitch and diameter) but some members on the Moyer forum have reported even less reverse performance. Part of this has to be diameter and pitch again but there is also a very knowledgeable member who attributes poor reverse performance to the winglets chopping into the water disrupting the flow when operating in reverse. One particularly harrowing stop in his slip with wind from the stern got his attention.
 
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