New Outboard - Next Topic

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Jan 22, 2008
171
Hunter 260 Lake Carlyle, Illinois
I really appreciated all of the comments on my previous post regarding brands of Outboards. What I've concluded is that:
a) They are all good
b) Hondas and Yamahas are probably at the top of the list

My next question - Yamaha and Honda offer 'High Thrust' options. I believe that with Honda - it is a different prop where as with Yamaha 9.9 - their High Thrust option has a difference prop AND is geared differently from the normal 9.9 4 stroke outboard. It is also a bit heavier (about 105 pounds vs 95 pounds or so).

Any thoughts on the High Thrust options? Is it worth the extra $$$? (I don't have quotes yet - I don't know how much extra $$$ I'm talking about - I'm guessing two to three Boat Units however).

There have been times, trying to maneuver my H-260 around a crowded marina, especially in a cross wind when I've wished I had more omph! than my 8 HP 2 stroke Tohatsu could provide.

... and Happy Thanksgiving to all members of this forum.

Tom Grass
Grasshopper III
Creve Coeur, Missouri
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
Yes, this has been reviewed and the Yamaha gives a LOT more low-end push. Also a lot more in reverse (exhaust deflector). I'm quite certain that a 9.9 would push the 27-foot mono into anything reasonable, considering how well the 32-foot PDQ cats can do on one engines, even with a headwind. They have twice the windage. Pairs of Yamahas are common on cats up to ~ 40 feet.

You can find a lot of discussion on the Yamaha 9.9s here, as they are the primary PDQ engine. Also, a lot of owner reports on that specific motor.
http://www.pdqforum.com/viewforum.php?f=20

Also, here are 2 posts on installations:
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2009/11/removing-and-replacing-engines-in-pdq.html
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2012/08/new-engines.html
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,442
-na -NA Anywhere USA
I amn not sure if a motor to rudder connector might help you. Do you know the term crabbing in use on airplanes. If so, think about that on boats when approaching a slip with a crosswind.
 
Jan 22, 2008
171
Hunter 260 Lake Carlyle, Illinois
Thanks Dave ...

Dave - you're right - one of my best projects for 2012 was to connect my rudder to my OB (the other was a solar panel to keep the batteries topped off; the larger anchor roller (for my Delta anchor) was a close runner up.)

The main attraction I have with the high thrust OB is the ability to back up. One time last year in the North Channel we were dragging anchor - I put the OB in reverse and it took forever (or seemed to) to pull the boat back against the prevailing wind. My one concern of the high thrust option - will I be able to reach hull speed (around 6 to 6.5 knots) with this OB?

Tom Grass

I amn not sure if a motor to rudder connector might help you. Do you know the term crabbing in use on airplanes. If so, think about that on boats when approaching a slip with a crosswind.
 
Dec 2, 2003
764
Hunter 260 winnipeg, Manitoba
Tom. We have a 2004 Yamaha 9.9 high thrust on our 260. Very happy with it. Gets to 5-5.5 a bit under 1/2 throttle. Getting to 6-6.5 is 3/4 to wide open. Very quiet, reliable and economical. Most years we only use about three gallons or so! Definitely link to rudder!
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,442
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Tom;

When the bow starts to rise when using any motor, you will start to plow thru the water which basically is saying you cannot go any faster and you should then reduce throttle to bring the bow down which at that point is the fastest speed. Some will swear to a high thrust but never found it was really needed and the test for me was in the main channel where the water is swift at the mouth of the James River in Virginia right next to NOB where the carriers dock. Current there is swift.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
After the article in US BOAT about Yamaha not standing behind their motors on a corrosion issue, I would go with the Honda.
 
Jan 22, 2008
171
Hunter 260 Lake Carlyle, Illinois
Details???

Anchorclanker - Was (Is) this a recent problem? If so - then I agree with you ... Honda probably IS the way to go.

Tom Grass

After the article in US BOAT about Yamaha not standing behind their motors on a corrosion issue, I would go with the Honda.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
Yes. If I were considering a new motor, cost no object, I would choose Honda. Pretty much everyone rates them the Mercedes of outboards, with good reason. Thats probably the only foreign made motor I would buy. Next would be a Mercury.
 
Dec 8, 2011
172
Hunter 23.5 New Orleans
anchorclanker said:
Yes. If I were considering a new motor, cost no object, I would choose Honda.

+1 Honda. This weekend my 2006 5hp Honda pushed my Hunter 23.5 for about 37 nautical miles on 2.3 gallons of gas at 5 knots average speed. 16 nautical miles/ gallon
is far better mileage than my old (and thankfully long gone) Jag XJ6 ever managed on the highway. The engine's auxiliary alternator kept the battery charged while the tiller pilot steered and I day dreamed of far away places...and kept look out, of course.

Kind regards

Hugh
 
Jan 22, 2008
171
Hunter 260 Lake Carlyle, Illinois
Thanks all for the replies ... you've provided me the insight I need to make the proper decision.

Tom Grass
 
Aug 11, 2011
979
O'day 30 313 Georgetown MD
Here is the article. To clarify for all, I would read before coming to a conclusion. After reading it I see no mention of any of the other size motors which Yamaha produces and the year of production range is 2000-2004. I have no financial gain, just want to point out the obvious.


Yamaha F225 Corrosion Complaints
By Charles Fort
Published: October/November 2012
Owners of some Yamaha outboards are incensed at having to pay thousands to repair their relatively low-hour engines.

Recently, the BoatUS Consumer Protection Bureau has been made aware of dozens of reports regarding serious corrosion problems in Yamaha outboards, specifically 2000 to 2004, first-generation F225 models. Over time the issue usually surfaces after 500 to 700 hours of use the engine's exhaust gases appear to corrode the exhaust tube and sometimes the engine's oil pan, which is in the same area. Reinier Van Der Herp, a New Jersey marine surveyor, told BoatUS, "I've seen the damage to six engines myself, and know of at least a dozen others in the New Jersey area." The failure, he reports, isn't outwardly visible, but the engine may lose power and begin to smoke. In some cases, he says, the oil dipstick can be blown out of the engine from the exhaust-gas pressure.

To date, six BoatUS members have reported to us that they've experienced this problem, and we've received similar reports from three other marine surveyors, on both coasts, who have examined this problem firsthand on other boats. In addition, Internet chat rooms and forums describe the experiences of many other owners who have similar problems with their Yamaha F225s; one owner, who reported that both his engines failed after only 450 hours, compared the problem to "a youngster needing a hip replacement." The repair is expensive. A kit with the necessary parts is about $650, but the biggest hit to the wallet is labor, which can top $2,500. In some cases, the power head may have to be replaced, which can cost $10,000 (the F225 retails for more than $17,000), or twice that for owners whose boats have two engines.

For its part, Yamaha duly repaired engines that failed during the warranty period. But because most recreational boat owners use their outboard engines less than 100 hours per year, a three-year warranty means that many engines begin failing a year or two after the warranty expires. According to Yamaha, no service bulletins were issued about this corrosion problem, though it appears the company has created a parts kit specifically to address fixing it.

A Case In Point
BoatUS member Steve Oetegenn from San Diego, California, was about to close the sale of his 2004 29-foot Seaswirl with twin 2003 Yamaha 225s, but during the final sea trial, the starboard engine began to smoke and the buyer walked. Oetegenn took the boat to his mechanic and was stunned when told the dry-exhaust corrosion was so severe that the power heads would have to be replaced at a cost of more than $20,000 for both.

The engines had been serviced every year exactly as Yamaha suggested, and in fact had just been serviced a week before at a cost of $2,000. His engines had only 500 hours of use. The frustrating part, says Oetegenn, is that if Yamaha had previously informed the technician of the potential problem, the engines could have been inspected for corrosion during a prior annual maintenance (while still under warranty) and perhaps been repaired, rather than ruined. The worst part? Oetegenn had purchased an extended warranty for both engines, and it had expired only months before the engine failed. Oetegenn wrote two letters to Yamaha to request assistance, and received a letter that said, because his engine was out of warranty, the company was unable to help. He now will have to spend thousands of dollars in repairs, just so he can sell his boat.


Photo: Freddie Merhelo The exhaust section (right) shows severe corrosion compared to the new one on the left.

Other owners who followed Yamaha's maintenance procedures are also angry. In some cases, their dealers first tried to fault the owners by telling them that the corrosion stemmed from the owner's failure to flush the engine after every use. But according to Paul Logue, a marine surveyor in Scituate, Massachusetts, who's inspected three ruined Yamaha F225 engines, that argument evaporates because the corrosion happens internally where no cooling water is present. "Flushing would have no effect," he says. "In my opinion, there's nothing an owner could've done to prevent serious corrosion from eventually eating through the exhaust system."

Is Ethanol To Blame? Probably Not
Many of the affected engines became damaged shortly after E10 was introduced. Mark Bell, a metallurgical engineer in Sacramento, California, says it's unlikely that ethanol is the culprit because it typically burns even cleaner than gasoline. The design of a dry exhaust, he says, should take into account the hot exhaust gases from burned gasoline and its potential to corrode the metal. A coating to withstand the gases is basic and not expensive or high tech, he adds. Indeed, the new replacement kit from Yamaha has parts with a different coating that seems to be effective. Another reason ethanol likely isn't to blame is that other Yamaha products don't appear to be suffering the same corrosion issues.

Yamaha Responds
BoatUS contacted Yamaha by phone and letter to discuss this problem. In a response letter to BoatUS, the company sidestepped the corrosion issue and wrote, "The outboards you mention have been out of warranty for quite some time. We would like to remind our customers that the best way to prevent the issues encountered is to flush the motor after every use with plenty of fresh water." Despite repeated requests from BoatUS, Yamaha would not provide further clarification about how flushing the engine would prevent corrosion of the dryexhaust parts.
 
Jan 22, 2008
171
Hunter 260 Lake Carlyle, Illinois
So to return to the original question ....

Thanks for providing details on this ... I had been unable to locate the details on the internet. Questions:

1) Is it isolated to Yamaha 225 HP OB's?
2) Is the Yamaha 9.9 4 cycle Hi-Thrust affected by the same defects?
3) Does Yamaha make a good motor?
4) Is Yamaha a reputable company?

I like the idea of a specifically geared hi-thrust motor; I also have always considered Yamaha above reproach (just as I consider Honda) as far as taking care of their customers and engineering a quality product.

I'm kind of back where we started ...

Tom Grass

Here is the article. To clarify for all, I would read before coming to a conclusion. After reading it I see no mention of any of the other size motors which Yamaha produces and the year of production range is 2000-2004. I have no financial gain, just want to point out the obvious.


Yamaha F225 Corrosion Complaints
By Charles Fort
Published: October/November 2012
Owners of some Yamaha outboards are incensed at having to pay thousands to repair their relatively low-hour engines.

Recently, the BoatUS Consumer Protection Bureau has been made aware of dozens of reports regarding serious corrosion problems in Yamaha outboards, specifically 2000 to 2004, first-generation F225 models. Over time the issue usually surfaces after 500 to 700 hours of use the engine's exhaust gases appear to corrode the exhaust tube and sometimes the engine's oil pan, which is in the same area. Reinier Van Der Herp, a New Jersey marine surveyor, told BoatUS, "I've seen the damage to six engines myself, and know of at least a dozen others in the New Jersey area." The failure, he reports, isn't outwardly visible, but the engine may lose power and begin to smoke. In some cases, he says, the oil dipstick can be blown out of the engine from the exhaust-gas pressure.

To date, six BoatUS members have reported to us that they've experienced this problem, and we've received similar reports from three other marine surveyors, on both coasts, who have examined this problem firsthand on other boats. In addition, Internet chat rooms and forums describe the experiences of many other owners who have similar problems with their Yamaha F225s; one owner, who reported that both his engines failed after only 450 hours, compared the problem to "a youngster needing a hip replacement." The repair is expensive. A kit with the necessary parts is about $650, but the biggest hit to the wallet is labor, which can top $2,500. In some cases, the power head may have to be replaced, which can cost $10,000 (the F225 retails for more than $17,000), or twice that for owners whose boats have two engines.

For its part, Yamaha duly repaired engines that failed during the warranty period. But because most recreational boat owners use their outboard engines less than 100 hours per year, a three-year warranty means that many engines begin failing a year or two after the warranty expires. According to Yamaha, no service bulletins were issued about this corrosion problem, though it appears the company has created a parts kit specifically to address fixing it.

A Case In Point
BoatUS member Steve Oetegenn from San Diego, California, was about to close the sale of his 2004 29-foot Seaswirl with twin 2003 Yamaha 225s, but during the final sea trial, the starboard engine began to smoke and the buyer walked. Oetegenn took the boat to his mechanic and was stunned when told the dry-exhaust corrosion was so severe that the power heads would have to be replaced at a cost of more than $20,000 for both.

The engines had been serviced every year exactly as Yamaha suggested, and in fact had just been serviced a week before at a cost of $2,000. His engines had only 500 hours of use. The frustrating part, says Oetegenn, is that if Yamaha had previously informed the technician of the potential problem, the engines could have been inspected for corrosion during a prior annual maintenance (while still under warranty) and perhaps been repaired, rather than ruined. The worst part? Oetegenn had purchased an extended warranty for both engines, and it had expired only months before the engine failed. Oetegenn wrote two letters to Yamaha to request assistance, and received a letter that said, because his engine was out of warranty, the company was unable to help. He now will have to spend thousands of dollars in repairs, just so he can sell his boat.


Photo: Freddie Merhelo The exhaust section (right) shows severe corrosion compared to the new one on the left.

Other owners who followed Yamaha's maintenance procedures are also angry. In some cases, their dealers first tried to fault the owners by telling them that the corrosion stemmed from the owner's failure to flush the engine after every use. But according to Paul Logue, a marine surveyor in Scituate, Massachusetts, who's inspected three ruined Yamaha F225 engines, that argument evaporates because the corrosion happens internally where no cooling water is present. "Flushing would have no effect," he says. "In my opinion, there's nothing an owner could've done to prevent serious corrosion from eventually eating through the exhaust system."

Is Ethanol To Blame? Probably Not
Many of the affected engines became damaged shortly after E10 was introduced. Mark Bell, a metallurgical engineer in Sacramento, California, says it's unlikely that ethanol is the culprit because it typically burns even cleaner than gasoline. The design of a dry exhaust, he says, should take into account the hot exhaust gases from burned gasoline and its potential to corrode the metal. A coating to withstand the gases is basic and not expensive or high tech, he adds. Indeed, the new replacement kit from Yamaha has parts with a different coating that seems to be effective. Another reason ethanol likely isn't to blame is that other Yamaha products don't appear to be suffering the same corrosion issues.

Yamaha Responds
BoatUS contacted Yamaha by phone and letter to discuss this problem. In a response letter to BoatUS, the company sidestepped the corrosion issue and wrote, "The outboards you mention have been out of warranty for quite some time. We would like to remind our customers that the best way to prevent the issues encountered is to flush the motor after every use with plenty of fresh water." Despite repeated requests from BoatUS, Yamaha would not provide further clarification about how flushing the engine would prevent corrosion of the dryexhaust parts.
 
Aug 11, 2011
979
O'day 30 313 Georgetown MD
tgrass462,
either the write up will scare you away from purchasing a Yamaha or challenge you by taking any associated risk. As the units in the write up are at least eight years old now and any warranty obviously no longer valid, it makes me wonder if I should spend $400 more and get a Honda. Either unit will bring the question: Will my transom on my 1984 25.5 take the additional weight? The high thrust Yamaha weighs 106 lbs and the Honda, I beleive 108 lbs. 3 yr vs. 5 yr warranty. I think I will rethink the financial side and see if I can swing and new Honda.
 

Deucer

.
Oct 6, 2008
157
Hunter H260 Keesler AFB Marina
I've got a Honda 9.9 (1998) on a Hunter 260. My biggest advice is to ALWAYS use Marine Sta-Bil. The ethanol ruined my carburetor which cascaded into a bunch more issues. Also, keep some form of corrosion shield on the shift linkage adjustment nut. When my Honda is running right, it's great (I don't blame the motor for what ethanol did to it)
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
Who cares which model Yamaha did or did not stand behind? If they wont stand behind a $15,000 motor, what makes you think they will stand behind anything else? Who cares? And then to give owners a run around rather than just tell them to pound sand, which is really what they were saying in the first place.

I have never read anything even remotely similar with Honda. They ARE the mercedes of outboards, with Mercs running a close second.

The only way to get quality service is to put our money where our mouths are and not patronize companies who screw people. The problem was a glaring defect that should have been taken care of. Had Yamaha kissed their customers a$$es, no one would have ever read about it. That was their choice, now we get to choose when we open our wallets.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
I've got a Honda 9.9 (1998) on a Hunter 260. My biggest advice is to ALWAYS use Marine Sta-Bil. The ethanol ruined my carburetor which cascaded into a bunch more issues. Also, keep some form of corrosion shield on the shift linkage adjustment nut. When my Honda is running right, it's great (I don't blame the motor for what ethanol did to it)
Good advice. But I would add that little 2 stroke oil mixed with the fuel (100:1), seems to offer a lot of protection, not only to helping stabilize the fuel, but protecting internals from corrosion, including the carb, and you wont even see it or notice it. And if you can find non ethanol fuel all the better.

Remember too, fuel formulas are regional. The ickiest places get the worst fuel formulations. Go figure.
 
Aug 11, 2011
979
O'day 30 313 Georgetown MD
I think I will rethink the financial side and see if I can swing and new Honda

So I went over to our local Honda Marine dealership and guess what? They have a 9.9, new, for less than the Yamaha. The best things apart from the price are: a 5 year labor and parts warranty, a 12 amp alternator vs. 6 amp, instock and he will put a high thrust prop on at no extra charge. I asked all the due didligent questions and have made up my mind for the Honda.

Reading what anchorclanker writes about adding a little oil, brought back memories. Years ago when living at home in England, at the petrol stations you could buy a pennies worth of oil which was dropped into the tank. I wonder what that would cost today?
 
Jun 2, 2004
3,554
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
9.9 On a 23.5

If I am reading the previous post correctly

You are looking at installing too much motor.

My 6 pushes me to hull speed at less than 3/4 throttle.
 
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