New boats depreciate (don't let the sales guy fool you) - Used boats cost money to fix up. In the end they all do the same thing. What do you think is the more cost effective method when purchasing a vessel. I am looking for something in the 42' size. Are boats such as Sabre, Tartan, Island Packet better value used over the regular production boats such as Beneteau, Hunter and the like? If used is the way to go, then how old 2 years or 6 or 15? Thank you
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new/used
I think part depends on how long you KNOW you will keep the boat. If you have sailed a certain boat and are sure you want one for yourself and plan to keep it many years, then new might be the way to go. If you are not sure, I would definitely buy used as the savings are huge, very negotiable, and you can find a lot of used boats in great shape. I'm not familiar enough with the bigger boats you mentioned, so I'll leave those comments to someone else.
I think part depends on how long you KNOW you will keep the boat. If you have sailed a certain boat and are sure you want one for yourself and plan to keep it many years, then new might be the way to go. If you are not sure, I would definitely buy used as the savings are huge, very negotiable, and you can find a lot of used boats in great shape. I'm not familiar enough with the bigger boats you mentioned, so I'll leave those comments to someone else.
3-5 years used may be the best vallue...
For a long time I have been looking a Hylas 46 or 49. Occasionally you run across a boat 3-5 years old with less than 400hrs in excellent conditions. Its new enough that very little has to be done, and old enough that its depreciated a fair amount. If I had to do it over again I would have probably bought a 2-3 year 41/44 hunter instead of a new 36. my 2 cents abe
For a long time I have been looking a Hylas 46 or 49. Occasionally you run across a boat 3-5 years old with less than 400hrs in excellent conditions. Its new enough that very little has to be done, and old enough that its depreciated a fair amount. If I had to do it over again I would have probably bought a 2-3 year 41/44 hunter instead of a new 36. my 2 cents abe
Depends on the model, I think
For instance, looking at Beneteaus, there was a period of production in the 90s where blistering was a real problem with the resin formula (since been addressed by new formulation and warantee repair). Unless you really need the Tommy Bahama interior, though, anything from 2000 to now is very similar. Just know that adding on is more expensive than upgrading for some parts, and less expensive for others (electronics, for instance, as existing electronics seem to bump up the asking price). I think the conservatism of well-tested designs keep some of the up-market models from depreciating so quickly, while the relatively new hull technologies of the production models, the ubiquity, and association with ride-em-hard and hang-em-up-wet treatment of charter boats that make their way back into the private market reduce the *perceived* value of those, though track records may be similar.
For instance, looking at Beneteaus, there was a period of production in the 90s where blistering was a real problem with the resin formula (since been addressed by new formulation and warantee repair). Unless you really need the Tommy Bahama interior, though, anything from 2000 to now is very similar. Just know that adding on is more expensive than upgrading for some parts, and less expensive for others (electronics, for instance, as existing electronics seem to bump up the asking price). I think the conservatism of well-tested designs keep some of the up-market models from depreciating so quickly, while the relatively new hull technologies of the production models, the ubiquity, and association with ride-em-hard and hang-em-up-wet treatment of charter boats that make their way back into the private market reduce the *perceived* value of those, though track records may be similar.
Mike, we purchased a 1991 P42 three ...
years ago that was very lightly used per our surveyor and my own observations. The main propulsion engine had 650 hours and the Genset 260 hours. Other than routine maintenance she has been a wonderful boat. I replaced the frig control module ($250) myself, hired to replace main cabin heat pump compressor/condenser ($500), some light bulbs, etc. We saved about $100,000 over a new boat. Yes, new is nice, but the previous owner had the advantage of working out any new boat kinks. No regrets here. We did the same with our first boat, a ten year old H28 and had the same experience, only on a smaller scale. If we were to change to another boat (unlikely), we would do the same thing again. A ten year old and lightly used Hunter. Terry
years ago that was very lightly used per our surveyor and my own observations. The main propulsion engine had 650 hours and the Genset 260 hours. Other than routine maintenance she has been a wonderful boat. I replaced the frig control module ($250) myself, hired to replace main cabin heat pump compressor/condenser ($500), some light bulbs, etc. We saved about $100,000 over a new boat. Yes, new is nice, but the previous owner had the advantage of working out any new boat kinks. No regrets here. We did the same with our first boat, a ten year old H28 and had the same experience, only on a smaller scale. If we were to change to another boat (unlikely), we would do the same thing again. A ten year old and lightly used Hunter. Terry
Advantages of "good old boats"
Total cost is still lower: Our '77 h27 cost $9,000. We have another $10,000 in it for new sails, new mast step, new forward hatch, new autopilot, rebuilt prop, and new bimini. It is just what we want at less than half the cost of a new or recent boat. We like her looks, easier ride, much simpler systems, and teak interior. We have chartered new Hunters and Catalinas. We love the arch and easy swim step, but the bigger interior spaces seemed of limited utility for the two of us, or our occasional groups of four. I mean that - we prefer this boat. We may move to a bigger boat when the grandsons get older to make room for them to come along. But I would look first for classic plastic like a Cherubini h33. By the way, to the consternation of the builders, there is no reason to believe that our 1977 boat won't last another 20 years! IMHO applies to all of the above. Actually this is our preference, not our opinion. We like our 27 year old boat, and see it as the best alternative for us. I can easily understand someone who prefers the new features of the current Henderson designs with their new technology and modern sail plans. The great idea of sailing is that you can choose what you want from so many really good options. David Lady Lillie
Total cost is still lower: Our '77 h27 cost $9,000. We have another $10,000 in it for new sails, new mast step, new forward hatch, new autopilot, rebuilt prop, and new bimini. It is just what we want at less than half the cost of a new or recent boat. We like her looks, easier ride, much simpler systems, and teak interior. We have chartered new Hunters and Catalinas. We love the arch and easy swim step, but the bigger interior spaces seemed of limited utility for the two of us, or our occasional groups of four. I mean that - we prefer this boat. We may move to a bigger boat when the grandsons get older to make room for them to come along. But I would look first for classic plastic like a Cherubini h33. By the way, to the consternation of the builders, there is no reason to believe that our 1977 boat won't last another 20 years! IMHO applies to all of the above. Actually this is our preference, not our opinion. We like our 27 year old boat, and see it as the best alternative for us. I can easily understand someone who prefers the new features of the current Henderson designs with their new technology and modern sail plans. The great idea of sailing is that you can choose what you want from so many really good options. David Lady Lillie
Depends ll
Interesting question. I have always purchased used altho recent vintage. However, I have also always sunk some good money into upgrades. I think a good argument can be made for cutting a real good deal on a new boat, and having it optioned the way you want it from the beginning and taking advantage of the manufacturer's or dealer's purchasing power and installation labor. For sure, I'd order sail upgrades. Rick D.
Interesting question. I have always purchased used altho recent vintage. However, I have also always sunk some good money into upgrades. I think a good argument can be made for cutting a real good deal on a new boat, and having it optioned the way you want it from the beginning and taking advantage of the manufacturer's or dealer's purchasing power and installation labor. For sure, I'd order sail upgrades. Rick D.
NEW OR USED
MIKE, I HAVE OWNED SEVERAL SAILBOATS RANGING IN SIZE FROM 22 TO 40 FT. ALL WERE USED WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A 1999 C32.NEW IS GREAT, NOTHING TO FIX SMELLS NEW LOOKS NEW. AFTER OWNING HER FOR 3 YEARS SHE STARTED TO LOOK USED.SOLD HER, TOOK A SIZABLE HIT WENT BOATLESS FOR 2 YEARS. BOUGHT A USED C400.PRICE WAS LOW COMPARED TO NEW.DEPRECIATION WAS PAID BY SOMEONE ELSE.SHE SAILS GREAT, LOOKS GREATAND SATISFIES OUR NEEDS JUST AS A NEW ONE WOULD. TARTAN AND SABRA. EXPENSIVE FOR NOTHING.IT ALL DEPENDS HOW DEEP YOUR POCKETS ARE. WHAT YOU USE WILL BE. WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO YOU. GOOD LUCK
MIKE, I HAVE OWNED SEVERAL SAILBOATS RANGING IN SIZE FROM 22 TO 40 FT. ALL WERE USED WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A 1999 C32.NEW IS GREAT, NOTHING TO FIX SMELLS NEW LOOKS NEW. AFTER OWNING HER FOR 3 YEARS SHE STARTED TO LOOK USED.SOLD HER, TOOK A SIZABLE HIT WENT BOATLESS FOR 2 YEARS. BOUGHT A USED C400.PRICE WAS LOW COMPARED TO NEW.DEPRECIATION WAS PAID BY SOMEONE ELSE.SHE SAILS GREAT, LOOKS GREATAND SATISFIES OUR NEEDS JUST AS A NEW ONE WOULD. TARTAN AND SABRA. EXPENSIVE FOR NOTHING.IT ALL DEPENDS HOW DEEP YOUR POCKETS ARE. WHAT YOU USE WILL BE. WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO YOU. GOOD LUCK
Older boat may actually APRECIATE
Our 21 year old H34 is currently valued several thousand dollars MORE than what we paid for it just three years ago. I'm not aware of any "new" boat that goes up in value in the short term. ~ Happy trails and sails to you ~_/) ~
Our 21 year old H34 is currently valued several thousand dollars MORE than what we paid for it just three years ago. I'm not aware of any "new" boat that goes up in value in the short term. ~ Happy trails and sails to you ~_/) ~
Value is relative
I spent 6 months searching for my upgrade. What I found was if you buy a 3-4 year old boat you could get a 4' bigger boat than new. A 4 year old Hunter, Beneteau, or Catalina is priced equivalent to a 12 year old Sabre, Island Packet or Tartan. I was afraid that if a boat was 12 years old I would spend all weekend fixing it. The admiral wanted the biggest boat for the money.
I spent 6 months searching for my upgrade. What I found was if you buy a 3-4 year old boat you could get a 4' bigger boat than new. A 4 year old Hunter, Beneteau, or Catalina is priced equivalent to a 12 year old Sabre, Island Packet or Tartan. I was afraid that if a boat was 12 years old I would spend all weekend fixing it. The admiral wanted the biggest boat for the money.
"Project" boat at blue book values.
Today I was out looking at a 34 C&C ... from the early 80s. I could visualize $20,000 in "improvements" over an asking price of $30,000. But then I would have spent $50,000 for a boat worth $35,000 and an insurance question each year. The key is to find a well maintained used boat and don't get caught in trying to buy a "project" boat at blue book values. Remeber the old rule ... the bigger the boat, the lot more expensive to repair the same things. Of course if the Project boat is priced right and you are retired with nothing to do ...
Today I was out looking at a 34 C&C ... from the early 80s. I could visualize $20,000 in "improvements" over an asking price of $30,000. But then I would have spent $50,000 for a boat worth $35,000 and an insurance question each year. The key is to find a well maintained used boat and don't get caught in trying to buy a "project" boat at blue book values. Remeber the old rule ... the bigger the boat, the lot more expensive to repair the same things. Of course if the Project boat is priced right and you are retired with nothing to do ...
Unanimous so far
It appears from all the posts thus far that everyone buys used, or so it sounds. So, how come the manufacturers sell so many new ones and does anyone know the ratio of new vs. old boats sold each year? Don Illusion (bought used)
It appears from all the posts thus far that everyone buys used, or so it sounds. So, how come the manufacturers sell so many new ones and does anyone know the ratio of new vs. old boats sold each year? Don Illusion (bought used)
I like new boats for several reasons
Over the years my wife and I have bought 9 new boats and for the first time in our lives, we will have a boat that is six years old. We bought new for a varity of reasons. First, loans on new boats have a cheaper interest rate. And the insurance companies love us with a new boat. Second, I like to pick and choose what I install on my new boat. The older boats have older equipment and a few are wired in so strangely that I would have had to redo the wireing system. But that is a minor point. I think the boating industry has made significant improvements in design, construction, gear, and materials. I happen to like the new stuff. That is also why I trade in my cars every five to ten years--nice improvements. In several cases of my sailboats, we have made a small profit so to speak when we sold or traded in our boat. Or the costs were minamal. As an example, we bought a Hunter 35.5 for $81,000. Had it for almost six years and sold it for $75,000. About $1000 per year for sailing it--not county insurance, slip fees, improvements, fuel, etc. Those expenses would have been the same for an older boat of the same size. Another reason for the new boats is that I am quite a klutz at woodworking and engine repair and a few other maintainence tasks as well. The older boats need someone to bring them up to a good state in many cases--something I'm reluctant to do Now before you start on me--this worked for me and my wife. I have friends who bought older boats and had a ball fixing them up. Several of them made a "profit" so to speak if you didn't count all their time. I happen to have a Hunter 380 that I am in love with. It is easy to maintain, easy to sail and I like its looks. I might evan pay this one off someday. So that is the tale of nine new boats. Les
Over the years my wife and I have bought 9 new boats and for the first time in our lives, we will have a boat that is six years old. We bought new for a varity of reasons. First, loans on new boats have a cheaper interest rate. And the insurance companies love us with a new boat. Second, I like to pick and choose what I install on my new boat. The older boats have older equipment and a few are wired in so strangely that I would have had to redo the wireing system. But that is a minor point. I think the boating industry has made significant improvements in design, construction, gear, and materials. I happen to like the new stuff. That is also why I trade in my cars every five to ten years--nice improvements. In several cases of my sailboats, we have made a small profit so to speak when we sold or traded in our boat. Or the costs were minamal. As an example, we bought a Hunter 35.5 for $81,000. Had it for almost six years and sold it for $75,000. About $1000 per year for sailing it--not county insurance, slip fees, improvements, fuel, etc. Those expenses would have been the same for an older boat of the same size. Another reason for the new boats is that I am quite a klutz at woodworking and engine repair and a few other maintainence tasks as well. The older boats need someone to bring them up to a good state in many cases--something I'm reluctant to do Now before you start on me--this worked for me and my wife. I have friends who bought older boats and had a ball fixing them up. Several of them made a "profit" so to speak if you didn't count all their time. I happen to have a Hunter 380 that I am in love with. It is easy to maintain, easy to sail and I like its looks. I might evan pay this one off someday. So that is the tale of nine new boats. Les
Used
The issue is value to you. We found our 1986 boat in immaculate condition in 1998. My records show that we originally planned to add about $2500 to put her in the shape we wanted, mostly electrical upgrades and fluids (transmission and oil filters, etc. We'd also seen other (same C34) boats for less, but would've cost a LOT more to get in them in shape. Of course, over the years, we've spent an average of about $6,000 on maintenance and improvements, but other than standing rigging replacement and a new furler, that's about what you'd spend for a new boat for the maintenance - hauls, bottom paint, life jackets, binoculars, stereo, etc. Before we bought for mid-fifties (in thousands) we checked out a new boat, same size and manufacturer for over $100K. Didn't seem like a good deal for twice the price, so we bought the previously owned boat and have improved her condition, which was great to begin with. She's held her value over the years and we didn't pay for the depreciation, someone else did. It's your wallet. Stu
The issue is value to you. We found our 1986 boat in immaculate condition in 1998. My records show that we originally planned to add about $2500 to put her in the shape we wanted, mostly electrical upgrades and fluids (transmission and oil filters, etc. We'd also seen other (same C34) boats for less, but would've cost a LOT more to get in them in shape. Of course, over the years, we've spent an average of about $6,000 on maintenance and improvements, but other than standing rigging replacement and a new furler, that's about what you'd spend for a new boat for the maintenance - hauls, bottom paint, life jackets, binoculars, stereo, etc. Before we bought for mid-fifties (in thousands) we checked out a new boat, same size and manufacturer for over $100K. Didn't seem like a good deal for twice the price, so we bought the previously owned boat and have improved her condition, which was great to begin with. She's held her value over the years and we didn't pay for the depreciation, someone else did. It's your wallet. Stu
Bucking the trend
I have to agree with Les - there are a lot of reasons to buy new. We are currently waiting for a new Catalina 42 which should be arriving in a month or so. Originally, we were looking for a 2-3 year old boat, but were surprised to find that the sale prices (not the listing prices) were just about the same as a new one. To be fair, the used boats already had chartplotters, heaters, etc. installed, but even adding them in the difference wasn't that great. If you were looking for a 10 year old boat, then you might find some real savings - and also some real headaches. What difference there was in prices we were will to spend to get the equipment and interior we wanted. Also, having a new engine is worth a lot in my book. Now, I am going to be spending a good deal of my time over the next few months installing heaters and chartplotters, but working with new equipment in a new boat is a lot more fun than old equipment in a smelly bilge. I don't know that you would find that the prices for other manufacturer's used boats would be as similar as we found Catalina's. It would seem to me that the more expensive boats would depreciate at roughly the same percentage, therefore leading to an actual higher price differential. Just my $.02 W
I have to agree with Les - there are a lot of reasons to buy new. We are currently waiting for a new Catalina 42 which should be arriving in a month or so. Originally, we were looking for a 2-3 year old boat, but were surprised to find that the sale prices (not the listing prices) were just about the same as a new one. To be fair, the used boats already had chartplotters, heaters, etc. installed, but even adding them in the difference wasn't that great. If you were looking for a 10 year old boat, then you might find some real savings - and also some real headaches. What difference there was in prices we were will to spend to get the equipment and interior we wanted. Also, having a new engine is worth a lot in my book. Now, I am going to be spending a good deal of my time over the next few months installing heaters and chartplotters, but working with new equipment in a new boat is a lot more fun than old equipment in a smelly bilge. I don't know that you would find that the prices for other manufacturer's used boats would be as similar as we found Catalina's. It would seem to me that the more expensive boats would depreciate at roughly the same percentage, therefore leading to an actual higher price differential. Just my $.02 W
Used
A great deal of this decision has to do with how and how often you are going to use the boat. If you are going to be a full time live aboard, I can see new. If, like me, you are going to use it off and on for six months of the year for a day or two at a time, used is the way to go......... -Somebody else takes the hit on the first couple of years depreciation. -Somebody else works out all the new boat bugs...important to me, I'm no where near any dealers. -Somebody else puts all the goodies on it for which the dealer will charge extra...air/heat, bimini, dodger, radar, auto pilot, VHF radio, AM/FM/CD, ropes, anchor, fenders, bedding, pots/pans, sail cover, Magma grill, TV, and many more. -Insurance is cheaper. If you can find a good boat that is several years old, it will be as good as new, at a lower price, broken in and loaded with equipment. The way I currently use my boat, I cannot envision ever buying another new one.
A great deal of this decision has to do with how and how often you are going to use the boat. If you are going to be a full time live aboard, I can see new. If, like me, you are going to use it off and on for six months of the year for a day or two at a time, used is the way to go......... -Somebody else takes the hit on the first couple of years depreciation. -Somebody else works out all the new boat bugs...important to me, I'm no where near any dealers. -Somebody else puts all the goodies on it for which the dealer will charge extra...air/heat, bimini, dodger, radar, auto pilot, VHF radio, AM/FM/CD, ropes, anchor, fenders, bedding, pots/pans, sail cover, Magma grill, TV, and many more. -Insurance is cheaper. If you can find a good boat that is several years old, it will be as good as new, at a lower price, broken in and loaded with equipment. The way I currently use my boat, I cannot envision ever buying another new one.
my 2 cents worth as well
my first sailboat was a 1977 oday 22 new...followed in december 1979 by a new 1980 model hunter 27 new was great...but the hunter 27 had many issues that i had not dealt with before and we didn't have the internet back then...frustrating bought a 1983 hunter 27 2 years ago and loved the equipment that came with it plus the price and last year, because i love the cherubini designs upgraded to a 37 cutter yes there are a few things to do...but people go beserk when they see all of the teak i am blessed with and the wide side decks color me conservative..but i love the older boats..just be selective and find one at the right price with the right enhancements (mine had an engine with only 300 hours installed in'92 and new ports, etc..very well maintained) but whether new or old...enjoy sailing..it is truly one of God's gifts to us... jim
my first sailboat was a 1977 oday 22 new...followed in december 1979 by a new 1980 model hunter 27 new was great...but the hunter 27 had many issues that i had not dealt with before and we didn't have the internet back then...frustrating bought a 1983 hunter 27 2 years ago and loved the equipment that came with it plus the price and last year, because i love the cherubini designs upgraded to a 37 cutter yes there are a few things to do...but people go beserk when they see all of the teak i am blessed with and the wide side decks color me conservative..but i love the older boats..just be selective and find one at the right price with the right enhancements (mine had an engine with only 300 hours installed in'92 and new ports, etc..very well maintained) but whether new or old...enjoy sailing..it is truly one of God's gifts to us... jim
A "project boat" is only cheaper...
if your time has no value (to borrow a phrase from the software world). Obviously, this is a balance. If you can buy a 50K boat, fix her up for 10K and 80 hours of labor, that beats an 80K boat hands down (unless you're a lawyer with some significant billable hours...). However, if you're all thumbs, put in bunches of hours only to have to fix your own mistakes, or hand over to a professional boat mechanic, an initial 100K without the hassle may be worth it to you.
if your time has no value (to borrow a phrase from the software world). Obviously, this is a balance. If you can buy a 50K boat, fix her up for 10K and 80 hours of labor, that beats an 80K boat hands down (unless you're a lawyer with some significant billable hours...). However, if you're all thumbs, put in bunches of hours only to have to fix your own mistakes, or hand over to a professional boat mechanic, an initial 100K without the hassle may be worth it to you.
Used! Even if my Pockets were Stuffed...
I would by a good used vessel. Mike, I have went through this process twice in the last three years. If you do your homework, You will get a much better perspective on the process. 1. Production boats are usually a better bargain than low volume custom boats. Note that I said better bargain, not necessarily better boats. 2. For popular models, well maintained, depreciation seems to begin flattening out at about 7 or 8 years. 3. Boats built in the second year of a production run will generally hold value nearly as well as same model 3 or 4 years newer. 4. A well maintained diesel engine will conservatively keep chugging for 1500 to 2000 hrs. 5. Many used boats will be carrying thousands in added equipment at yeaterday's prices. 6. Electronics are relatively cheap and they are getting cheaper and better by the month. Don't let the lack or of age of these items cause you to back off from a well maintained vessel. Six or eight year old boats are rarely sold because they are bad boats. They are sold for a variety of reasons, but it seldom has anything to do with being a "bad" boat. Armed with knowledge and a good surveyor, you can save thousands, and you will get to where you are going at about the same time as that shiney new one. Jon
I would by a good used vessel. Mike, I have went through this process twice in the last three years. If you do your homework, You will get a much better perspective on the process. 1. Production boats are usually a better bargain than low volume custom boats. Note that I said better bargain, not necessarily better boats. 2. For popular models, well maintained, depreciation seems to begin flattening out at about 7 or 8 years. 3. Boats built in the second year of a production run will generally hold value nearly as well as same model 3 or 4 years newer. 4. A well maintained diesel engine will conservatively keep chugging for 1500 to 2000 hrs. 5. Many used boats will be carrying thousands in added equipment at yeaterday's prices. 6. Electronics are relatively cheap and they are getting cheaper and better by the month. Don't let the lack or of age of these items cause you to back off from a well maintained vessel. Six or eight year old boats are rarely sold because they are bad boats. They are sold for a variety of reasons, but it seldom has anything to do with being a "bad" boat. Armed with knowledge and a good surveyor, you can save thousands, and you will get to where you are going at about the same time as that shiney new one. Jon
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