new kind of head?

[Pocahontas]

so I read an article in the German newspaper FAZ today talking about a portable toilet for RV's and boats which is basically a miniature sewage treatment plant
I tried to find something in English about it but I had no luck
just thought I'd put it out there because it solves the whole pumping overboard problem

 

[higgs]

I wonder if it is a composting toilet. Reportedly it works well, but requires a bit more vigilance than many of us are willing to supply.

 

[Pocahontas]

no it's not composting it is literally a tiny sewage plant in goes the crap out comes water

 

[higgs]

What is the process? How does crap become water?

 

[Ron20324]

www.natureshead.net

 

[Sumner]

Interesting.

We use the Double Doodie bags (same as Wag Bags) and like that system.

There is more on how we use them on this link, but it might not be for the faint of heart................

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-16-Powell-09.html

It is down the page aways.

c ya,

Sum and Ruth

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[sailingdog]

No, it doesn't, unless you're happy with carrying an increasing amount of treated sewage aboard. Unless the thing has an incinerator, the solid waste, even treated, is going to accumulate. On a longer cruise, the holding tank for the sewage treatment plant would eventually fill up. Also, in most NDZ's, which are becoming more common every year, it would still be illegal to discharge it. The old LectraSan MSD treats waste and brings it to levels more sanitary than most terrestrial waste treatment plants, and they're not allowed to discharge in any NDZ.

IMHO, there really isn't a serious issue with disposing of human waste overboard once past the three-mile limit. Even untreated waste will eventually be recycled by the sea life.

so I read an article in the German newspaper FAZ today talking about a portable toilet for RV's and boats which is basically a miniature sewage treatment plant
I tried to find something in English about it but I had no luck
just thought I'd put it out there because it solves the whole pumping overboard problem

 

[bffatcat]

heads???

How about a galvanized iron bucket. Advantages 1. no holding tank 2. No pump outs
3. No complicated macerator system. 4. No storage of effluent or odors to carry around 5. No gasket kits to change. 6. No repairs ever. 7. No leaks 8. and finally costs about $6 Disatvantages none: Ive been using one for about 15 years now, works great

 

[higgs]

Except that dumping the bucket overboard is illegal in coastal waters.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Pocahontas and bffatcat

Pocahontas... Surely the article in the German language paper mention the product by brand name, and brand names tend to be the same in any language...so you should be able to post it.

bffatcat...

How about a galvanized iron bucket. Advantages 1. no holding tank 2. No pump outs
3. No complicated macerator system. 4. No storage of effluent or odors to carry around 5. No gasket kits to change. 6. No repairs ever. 7. No leaks 8. and finally costs about $6 Disatvantages none: Ive been using one for about 15 years now, works great

I hate to break it to you, but "bucket and chuck it" is just as illegal as flushing a toilet directly overboard or dumping a holding tank inside the "3 mile limit." The devil is in the definitions in the law...which prohibits the discharge of sewage, which are defined in the CFR as

"Discharge includes, but is not limited to, any spilling, leaking, pouring, pumping, emitting, emptying, or dumping" and "Sewage means human body wastes and the wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body waste."

Which means you cannot pour waste over the side from a bucket or anything else. You may have gotten away with doing that for 15 years, but sooner or later your luck WILL run out, especially in the "hotbed" of no discharge environmental zeal that is New England these days!

 

[higgs]

Peggy - did you not say it is legal to urinate directly into the water, except for the possible indecent exposure charge?

 

[BobM]

While urine is virtually sterile, you are still sending things into the water that don't belong there...metabolized drugs for example. Water treatment may not remove them either though.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Yep that's true...

Peggy - did you not say it is legal to urinate directly into the water, except for the possible indecent exposure charge?

But only because nobody's been able to figure out any way that's actually enforceable to prevent people in small boats and swimmers from using "direct deposit."

 

[bffatcat]

For Peggie

So Peggie your telling me that its ok to be a lee rail charlie but bucket and chuck it is not ok.
I did not know this I thought it was the same thing. Correct me if im wrong but this means from now on Im going to have to line my bucket with with a plastic baggie and wait until im
3 miles offshore which I am "just about every time I sail" for legal disposal

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Yup...that's what I'm tellin' ya.

Please don't toss the baggie overboard too?

 

[higgs]

bffatcat

Just deposti your waste directly into the water and forget the bucket. Make sure no one can see you to avoid the indecent exposure charge.

 

[sailingdog]

Unfortunately, the way the law in the US is written... dropping trou and dumping directly off the stern rail is legal, even in an NDZ... as is peeing directly overboard. However, using anything, even as basic as a bucket, makes whatever you use an MSD..and it can not be discharged overboard.

 

[Sumner]

.........The devil is in the definitions in the law...which prohibits the discharge of sewage, which are defined in the CFR as

"Discharge includes, but is not limited to, any spilling, leaking, pouring, pumping, emitting, emptying, or dumping" and "Sewage means human body wastes and the wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body waste."....

I would take the "not limited to" part and the "emitting" part to maybe cover the direct discharge from one's body.

Personally I can't see the peeing part, but I can see covering the other. On Lake Powell they use to tell you to pee, but not any more.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

That's not how the law is written

Unfortunately, the way the law in the US is written... using anything, even as basic as a bucket, makes whatever you use an MSD..and it can not be discharged overboard.

Nope. The CFR defines "marine sanitation device MSD" as, "any equipment for installation on board a vessel which is designed to receive, retain, treat, or discharge sewage.." Which means that, for a device to be an MSD, it must be INSTALLED (clamped or bolted down and plumbed) onboard. That does NOT make a bucket an MSD....nor is a PORTABLE toilet an MSD (note that "MSD" model portapotties are so named because, unlike portable models, they're designed to be installed)....nor a jug full of urine, nor anything else that isn't installed.

It's the definition of "discharge" that makes "bucket and chuck it" illegal and also makes it illegal to dump anything else containing "sewage" over the side.

 

[Sumner]

Nope. The CFR defines "marine sanitation device MSD" as, "any equipment for installation on board a vessel which is designed to receive, retain, treat, or discharge sewage.." Which means that, for a device to be an MSD, it must be INSTALLED (clamped or bolted down and plumbed) onboard. That does NOT make a bucket an MSD....nor is a PORTABLE toilet an MSD (note that "MSD" model portapotties are so named because, unlike portable models, they're designed to be installed)....nor a jug full of urine, nor anything else that isn't installed.......

Our MacGregor came with a portapottie that just had two clamps on the side of it holding it to the floor, so I assume that it then meet the "installed" criteria?

We took it out and made..............

New Head Installation​

..........the new head that is "installed" and held down with a .................

............lid and a cover with a latch (on the front) that would prevent it from opening even if the boat got knocked down. It uses the Double Doodie (Wag Bags) to contain the urine and solid waste that also solidifies the urine.

The following is from your post:

"any equipment for installation on board a vessel which is designed to receive, retain, treat, or discharge sewage.."

I assume that wording is in the ruling. I guess my question is who can design the system. In my case I did. Does that make it legal or not?

Then also from your post:

Which means that, for a device to be an MSD, it must be INSTALLED (clamped or bolted down and plumbed) onboard.

That wasn't in quotes, so is that in the ruling or an interpretation of the wording. What constitutes clamped down. I don't have a clamp on mine, but the bucket with the bag is contained once the lid is latched down in a manner where it can not move horizontally or vertically and is fixed in position.

I'm trying to understand all of this to see if we are legal or not with this system if we go to Florida next year.

The Double Doodie bags are disposed of properly on shore. Reliance sells them to use for boating, but talking to them I could never get a "for sure" answer about what the Coast Guard or some other authority feels about them.

We have no intention of discharging into the water and feel that our system after using it extensively this year would never do that unless the boat was actually sunk. I'm wondering if we are legal now or if we could be cited or fined if stopped.

Thanks for any input you can give us,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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