New House Batteries??

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Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
I have three-year old golf cart batteries in two banks. I have kept them filled with water, equalized them twice, kept on a Heart charger/inverter and run them with a Balmar smart regulator. Now they are slow to charge and appear to lose their charge quickly. Last year, I was able to go five days living aboard running everything with the help of solar before running the engine. Now during a 10 day cruise, I had to do so twice a day. They check out volts-wise, but appear to have simply lost their capasity. So, I am going to replace them with golf cart flooded batteries again. I have NEVER had batteries last over three years before, so I don't expect to now, but am still surprised to only get three years from these pampered plates. I assume it is because it is used all year and the refrig and freezer are always on (12 volt). Seems a little risky to spend 2.5 times as much for either gel or AMG. Anyone care to disagree? Rick D.
 
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Doug T.

Cycles and depth of discharge

Sounds like you are a heavy battery user. How far down do you let the batteries discharge before you charge them back up again? If they go down more than 50%, you will drastically shorten their lives. Much better to run your engine for a short period every day or every other day than to wait five days like you were doing as a liveaboard. The solar panel was helping a little, but obviously wasn't keeping up all the way. Some careful monitoring of your energy budget (income and outgo) might reveal discharge patterns that just are too deep for optimum battery life.
 
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Frank Walker

More time

Rick, I have 4 6 volt golf cart batteries in two 12 volt banks that are 7 years old. They do not hold up like they did when new but I am still using them. Like you I have a Heart interface hooked to shore power and AB refrig running all the time. We do a fair amount of motoring and maybe this is the difference. ie they don't get deep cycled very ofter.
 
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Jim Maroldo

House batteries

Just a thought, Rick... I trust that you use distilled water to top off the batteries? Anything else has impurities that can be fatal to batteries. Jim Maroldo s/v: Lil' Wass Ett
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Thanks, Guys

I do use distilled water and do a fair amount of motoring since the breeze is pretty light in SoCal. But.. I did have an inverter/charger problem twice that tanked the batteries 100%, maybe three times before I figured it out. That could have caused a problem I suppose since I run both banks on the hook. Regardless, I would have thought golf carts to be more enduring, like Frank's. With my experience on battery durability over the years, I'm just too reluctant to put out big bucks for AGM's or Gel. I will pay more attention to my recharge cycles, tho. Any one else's comments/suggestions/speculations welcomed. Rick D.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Got over 10 years on GELs.

Rick: I got over 10 years a couple of West Marine Gels. This was running them on a non smart charger too. I am still amazed. I decided to try AGM's. It will be interesting to see how these last. Shop around, you may be suprised that there is really not that much difference between a medium quality flooded and a medium quality AGM from a non-marine store source.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Seems Like a Short Time

Just took my four golf carts out this afternoon for replacement (Trojans). Installed the first pair in 1993 and the second pair in 1994. Used a Heart 1000 W interter, Balmar 70A alternator and three step regulator, run a A-B Cold Machine. Pretty much everything like your situation except I don't use the boat from end of October until May/June/and sometimes July(!). Use for weekend cruising and the annual 3 to 4 week vaccation except a 77 day cruise last summer to Alaska. Voltage is absolutely excellent but noticed they didn't seem to run the refrigeration as long as they used to, hence, the replacement. Will probably replace them with Dynos - come in three models, I understand - will find out more tomorrow. When replacing recommend double checking all dimensions of battery box and new batteries to ensure everything will fit because battery sizes vary slightly between brands. P.S. Quoted $55 each this afternoon for 220 AH Dynos.
 
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Bryce Grefe

equalize

Rick, Close to same setup on my 410. However don't live aboard and not hooked up to shore power. Read someplace a couple of years ago that under heavy cycle use the batteries should be equalized as often as once per month. But twice in three years probably isn't enough. If I recall correctly, equalizing accomplishes two things, 1) to bring each individual cell up to 2.2 volts and 2) to slough off any soft material that may have built up on the plates. I'm in the NE so only get about 6 months a year in the water and we try to get at least 2 major crusies in. I equalize after each trip and before winter haul. On my third year with Trojans T-105's and can't see a noticable decrease in capacity yet. Bryce S/V Spellbinder H410
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Bryce, You May Be On To Something..

..regarding how often to equalize. The Heart manual will not give a recommendation, refering the owner to the battery mfg. It could well be that more frequency is needed. I'll step it up and try quarterly. Just a pain to kill all the electrics for a day and I don't have the nerve to sleep aboard and do it overnight, fumes and all. I agree that twice in three years is likely not adequate. Rick D.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
I thought I remember something about 21 days

I have a Statpower 40+ (now owned by Xantrex) www.xantrex.com. I through that I remembered a 21 day cycle for flooded battery equalization.
 
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Buck Harrison

Rick,

After a year and a half with origonal 4D's, I decided to replace them w/ AGM's last month. $315/per (for 4D's) at battery 'wholesaler'. Yes, they are a little more expensive, but, so far, they are excellent... Also, the fact that they are essentially 'no maintanance', is really nice. Don't need to ck and add water periodically. How long they last remains to be seen; but, so far, I'm very pleased; holding capacity has been excellent, and recharge time to 'float' from Balmar alternator is definately faster than old 'wet' 4Ds.......
 
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Bryce Grefe

more equalization

Rick, I found the article that talks about equalization. Its based around RV business, but still dealing with wet cells. Follow the attached link, its toward the bottom of the article. After re-reading, I still think thats part if not all of your problem. The charger this company sells is for RV's but still for wet cells. Their charger equalizes for 15 minutes every 21 hours. And the recommendation is once a month if you don't have their charger. And I hear you about doing it over night. I usually end up spending the entire day on board with everything open worrying about gassing etc. no pun intended. Bryce S/V Spellbinder H410 H410
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Equalizing Research

Thanks, Brice and Steve for the links. I also did some research including papers on maintaining UPS's. So: one suggests monitoring each cell and EQ when necessary. Most state 'periodically'. Another 'seasonally'. Another four times a year, and Bryce's last link, monthly. There may also be some definitional differences since some refer to 14.4 volts and others 16. Regardless, what I did get out of all of this is that once every 18 months is not nearly enough, by a factor of at least two, and probably more like four to nine. So, I think I'll stay with flooded, get the best deal I can, get the most amp-hours I can stuff in the case, keep my discharges down to 50% at most, equalize 'periodically' and hope I did the right thing. Rick D.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
6 Volt Gels too.

RD: If you ever want to go to Gels you can get them in 6 volt sizes too. I am thinking about doing this for my refrigeration bank (2 Group 31's). Change it to 4 - 6 volt batteries.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Good Point, Steve. And John, Let Us Know

..what you find about the Dynos, at least as to sizing. Trojan has quite a selection in a variety of case sizes. Steve, your experience with the gels is great. You have to win the most amps/buck. Come to think of it, my wife's Miata is 8 years old, has a gel and its going strong, at least twice as the best I've had before in any automotive application. Rick D.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Battery Input

Got a sore back! Just returned from dropping off my old Trojan 105s (golf carts) and picking up some new Dyno GC2s and learned some more in the process. 1. Light and Heavy Weights (= ampere-hours): Golf cart batteries come in more than one weight (read ampere-hour size). Trojans come in three models 105 (my old batteries that lasted 8 and 9 years - two sets of two), 125 and 145. The number is the ampere-hour capacity. Trojans have nation-wide distribution. Dyno is a smaller company apparently based in Seattle and they have two weights: GC2C (225Ah) and GC2 (245Ah). What I got out of battery shopping is the lightweight batteries are more of a "promotional" model where as the heavyweight models are more durable. 2. Testing: There are four tests one can perform on the old batteries to determine their condition: 1) Voltage, 2) Hydrometer, 3) Load, and, 4) Capacitance. If the voltage is low, replace. If any of the cells has a low specific gravity, replace. 3. Equalizing: The charger companies, like Hart, while having an equalizing circuit built-in to their chargers/inverters defer to the battery manufacturer if one should do this. Dyno said they don't recommend this as it consumes the positive plates. The batteries that I turned in had no less than 6.30 volts after 9 years, and this was by no means with a "proper" charge. The last time out I did a lot of sailing with the refrigeration running and only motored a very short distance from the breakwater to my slip - and this was almost a week ago. Hence, 6.3 volts, worst case, is really really good for 9 year-old batteries. However, they had lost a lot of their capacity as I could tell because I had to charge them sooner than years ago (no fancy testing required). 4. Charging devices: The charging devices I have on board include: (1) Balmar 70A alternator with ARS-2 three-step regulator and a (2) Heart Inverter 1000W. Their large charging capability are all that is needed to keep the batteries healthy. The Balmar alternator initial output is way above their rated output when cold (rating is a "hot" rating); bench tested at 125 amps! The Heart puts out 50 amps when connected to shore power. Based on my type of use (see previous post) these charging rates are apparently enough to keep the batteries healthy without equalizing. The Dyno person I talked to said that the way a person uses the batteries is an important factor in determining their life span. Note: In the entire 9 years I had the inverter I used the equalizer function only two times. Voltage: Golf carts retain a high voltage throughout their life. This is documented in Charlie Wing's "Handbook of Wiring" and in my own experience. High voltage is what electrical loads like, especially motor circuits. Low voltage is conducive to premature failure. Hope this helps.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,201
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Great Info, John.

..and I'm sure your Chiropractor will appreciate it too;^ Of course, the equalizing information must be added to the somewhat conflicting array of information on the thread. Doesn't give one a lot of confidence, does it? Well, I'm not looking forward to hauling mine out and replacing them either. Maybe I can draft a couple of dock mates. And, I REALLY hate reprogramming the stupid stereo everytime. Of all the electronics, it has the biggest manual and the worst ergonomics. Rick D.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Sensitivity to Weight

Conflicting information – isn’t that what this forum is all about? With regard to heavy weights: I'm getting really sensitive to lifting heavy weights lately. Just finished building a concrete patio with concrete block and pavers. Sacks of sand at 60#, cement at 96#, pavers, etc. Just about finished with that project and now I'm into batteries; hence my comments about "heavy" generators. Recently there was a Mayan mummy that was discovered and they determined he was higher up the labor chain because there was no damage of the vertebrae. Makes one have second thoughts about lifting heavy stuff. Found a bargain on a Honda 9.9 4-cycle short shaft but think I’ll pass because of it’s weight. It seems everything is getting heavier these days.
 
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Bryce Grefe

heavy weight

John, Rick, Its one of the main reasons I replaced my 4D's with golf carts. Bryce
 
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