New Anchor - Bruce or Delta?

Bad Obsession · Jun 3, 2010

I like my Lewmar Bruce Knock-off. Say what you will, but it has held my Catalina 30 in a 60 knot storm that started with a 180 degree wind change.

I have a friend that has a Manson Supreme and he swears by it. I have also heard that the Rocna is really good.

Make sure that you match the amount of chain to the anchor as well.

Stu Jackson · Jun 3, 2010

druid said:
Would I go back to steam? No, diesel engines have been proven. Has the Rocna? Remember it took 10 years for the love affair with the Bruce to wear off.

I believe you're missing the point. In the past, "new" anchor technology took about 1,000 years.l You remember the old "let's throw a heavy rock attached by some rope" idea. That lasted til the 1800s. Then came a few iterations and the fluke and "plow types" came on the market. The were significantly better than the rock, but not a whole lot of testing actually happened because Practical Sailor hadn't yet been invented! The CQR is at least a 50s design as I recall. That's 50 years old or more. Now comes in the 1990s and early 2000 and a few entrepreneurs come across with a new anchor design with roll bars!!! They are tested by PS, West Marine, I'll bet some "across the pond" and, more importantly to me, Maine Sail. Yup, he actually did a real live test, which you oughta read, instead of continuing with the "new nonsense." What his testing showed is what many, many, many of us skippers have actually proven based on purchase and use.

They set better

They hold better

They're harder to get up off the bottom

Need any more? Then, as suggested, please read Maine Sail's personal evaluation and test.

Here, too: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2705.0.html It's long, but I know you can wade through it all. Page 3 has the test.

You don't have to buy one, but you might want to consider discontinuing knocking them simply because they're new.

MoonSailer · Jun 3, 2010

My 33# Claw a Bruce knockoff has served me well for 5+ years. I bought a new 22# Delta that I have not used. Supposedly the Delta holds better but I haven't used it yet.

DannyS · Jun 3, 2010

I'm also a Manson Supreme club member. I love it! This thing is tough to pull out even when I'm right on top of it pulling straight up! We anchor in sand 95% of the time so that may skew my bias. I had a 16# Fortress that is now my backup/stern anchor. That worked well...until it didn't. A 180 deg. wind shift lifted the thing out and we ended up dragging to the point that we were bouncing on the bottom. No damage, no one around us even knew. That was enough for me to make the switch.

Maine Sail · Jun 3, 2010

druid said:
Remember it took 10 years for the love affair with the Bruce to wear off.

druid

Huh? IMHO the Bruce is the best of the older designs. It is no secret however that they have limited holding power for their size and most reviewers and real world users recommend going up at least one if not two whole sizes if you use a claw/Bruce. This is fine and will work very well but most don't really want a 44 pound anchor when a 22-25 pounder of another brand will work.

The love affair never wore off just like your tube TV vs. the flat screen plasma's and LCD's they are all still TV's but the latter simply perform better and folks have moved on to newer designs that have very impressive performance.

I might as well post the old vs. new video again..

Old vs. New - Hard Sand Setting (VIDEO LINK)

Stu Jackson · Jun 3, 2010

In addition to Maine Sail's re-post of his video

Here's what he wrote so eloquently about setting anchors, included in the link I suggested above.

...I own a Bruce and a CQR and though they perform ok they are not always quick setters (CQR) or high holding (Bruce). My assertion that 80% of boaters never actually set an anchor and get very lucky using basically a "rope on a rock" seems more true than ever.

Last summer on a friends boat he left me at the helm while he went to drop his CQR. I backed down, like I always do, gradually increasing to 80% throttle and the anchor dragged!

Here's how the conversation went "Geez that's never happened before","Really? Lets try it again",.

On the second attempt it had an initial bite (starting to burry) but when I applied power it broke free. "Your giving it to much throttle and ripping it out of the bottom", "it's an anchor!", "let me try", "ok".

So I now go up to let the anchor down & he puts the boat in reverse gets it moving and then puts it in neutral and we get an initial bite. "There see it's set", "No it's just starting to dig in it now needs to be set", "It's always held me before", "Have you ever experienced a 30 knot blow on the hook?", "No" "Well a 30 knot blow on your boat is the equivalent of roughly 900 pounds of pull on the anchor did you know that?", "No", "Did you know that the motor on this boat can barely re-produce 350 pounds of pull wide open?" "No", "Well let's let it set your way and in a couple of hours we'll simulate 20 knots of wind with the motor and see and happens", "You're on". You can probably guess what happened. Because we never properly set the anchor it dragged! We did get it to set that day using a 10:1 scope then shortening to 5:1. My friend could not beleive that the CQR could hold his boat using 80% throttle and was totally surprised by it! Scary I know.... From my experience I find a CQR likes a minimum of a 7:1 to set but it sometimes prefers more..

He now understands that an anchor should hold your boat at wide open in reverse without moving. This is a guy who has been sailing for 25 years and admittedly dragged "perhaps 20 times but never with my CQR"! Once is to much! It's imperative the anchor gets "set" properly. Yes the CQR sets better in soft bottoms than in sand but not all boaters are lucky enough to always drop the hook in a soft bottom. So if you're in a hard bottom make sure to get it set. The CQR will set well but it may take more than one attempt. Don't ever be fooled by the "initial bite". With a CQR this is a situation where the anchor is laying on it's side with the tip just starting to dig in. Like the picture at the beginning of Sail Magazines article. If you stop there on any sort of wind or current shift the anchor will twist out. A CQR needs to be vertical and buried to the shank or it's not properly set. If it's properly buried it can sometimes survive a 180 shift without "breaking free". I suggest some of you begin diving on your anchors in a shallow spot to see what's going on down there I think you'd be surprised...

Tim R. · Jun 3, 2010

druid said:
Would I go back to steam? No, diesel engines have been proven. Has the Rocna? Remember it took 10 years for the love affair with the Bruce to wear off.

I think this is such a contentious issue because there IS very little difference between the anchors - they all do well (well, except for some notable exceptions!). People have been using CQR, Bruce, Danforth, Delta... for decades, and with there is a problem it's usually "user error" (ie not enough chain, for instance).

I have a Danforth and a small CQR, so I guess a Bruce would be the best compliment. Tim - how would I get the anchor from your place to my place? I'd be very interested as long as I could get it by Canada Day, when I'm starting my trip to the Broughtons.
PM me?

druid

Druid, I could ship it UPS or US postal tomorrow. It would get to you by July 1st easily. I would expect about 5-7 business days from Maine. I sent you a PM earlier. Make me an offer.

Scott B · Jun 3, 2010

druid said:
I have a Danforth and a small CQR, so I guess a Bruce would be the best compliment.
druid

Remind me to NEVER anchor downwind of you, I've had enough experiences of a boat passing by us sideways in a 30 knot thunderstorm ....

Craig Smith · Jun 4, 2010

If you're not going to listen to the feedback why do you ask the question?

Your points are illogical and full of fallacies. In 1935 the CQR seemed a rather impressive anchor. In 1945 the Danforth was amazing. In 1985 the Bruce provided far better setting ability than the CQR, despite the latter now having 50 years of monopoly driven tradition to its name. In 1990 the Delta proved a measurable jump again. In 2000 the Spade improved once more and so it goes. In another 10 years we might have thought of some more improvements, can't imagine any for the time being but that's not to say it's impossible...

You might as well say you refuse to drive a modern car because motoring journalist's reviews of the 1980 Car of the Year were so good.

The answer to your somewhat irrationally limited question, between a Bruce and a Delta, on a weight for weight basis, is: the Delta. It is a far superior general purpose anchor. Not to mention the genuine Bruce isn't available anyway so it's sort of a moot point, unless you find a second hand example, in which case check it hasn't been re-galvanized in its history.

The Delta will need to be approximately 50% heavier than certain new generation anchors to provide comparable holding. This is not a BS number and is fairly easy to demonstrate.

Good luck.

Liam · Jun 4, 2010

I believe that when people say that ten years of prctical use of "new technology or designs" is not enough to prove to them that something is "better" and that they are going to "stick with the old ways"...
They are not long for an assisted living and memory care facility.

med2463 · Jun 4, 2010

Below is a link to Practical Sailor's review of anchors. We bought the xyz with some skepticism since my husband has always preferred the cqr, but a cqr wouldn't work on our boat because of the bow roller. So far, the xyz is working great.
http://www.practical-sailor.com/boatus/anchors/4rhod4598/03anchor.html

druid said:
I'm looking at getting a new anchor for my Crown 28 - one that sits nicely in the anchor-chock. I'm looking at a Bruce (or Bruce-clone) or Delta. Any comments, suggestions, preferences?

The boat is 28ft, about 6800lb.

druid

MoonSailer · Jun 4, 2010

Druid I think I understand your point. You are saying that the claims are all marketing. An anchor is a very long lasting item and I'm sure that marketing a new miracle anchor increases sales. I bought my "Claw" after my CQR and Danforth both drug after a 180 degree windshift in a thunderstorm. The Danforth speared a conch and couldn't reset and the CQR apparently just drug over the bottom. My oversized Claw has reset many times in tidal shifts and wind shifts. I still put out a second anchor the Danforth when in doubt. Two lesser anchors is probably a better choice than one superior anchor. You can probablly buy 3-4 Claws for the price of one Rocna.

Liam · Jun 4, 2010

"two or three crappy things are better than one really good thing".... ???

Yeah right, that makes perfect sense!

Ross · Jun 4, 2010

I tend to go oversize when it comes to anchors and safety lines. Nothing too strong ever broke.

Prime Time · Jun 4, 2010

It's kind of like religion....

You have to have faith in your anchor or you won't sleep at night! On the way back from bermuda a number of yrs ago, we were caught in a full gale with 20 ft breaking seas in the gulf stream, lightning hitting the water all around us. My dad looked at our friend, who happens to be a protestant minister, and asked him to start praying, (we are not protestant), another crew man was praying his rosary.....I was saying the shma.

It pays to have different anchors suited for different bottoms, learn how to set them and use lots of scope. I would never put out just 4:1 with rope, if it was too crowded, I'd move on.

I happen to be fond of the cqr but also have a big old Bruce and a Hi-tensile Danforth.

Stu Jackson · Jun 4, 2010

It is NOTHING like religion

Really. Selection of anchors is based on testing and science. You would no longer tie a rock to a rope and use it for an anchor, would you?

If you maintain that one should employ different anchors for different bottoms, that is based on testing. The design of the anchors themselves is based on science.

Science and religion can certainly co-exist. They are not, however, the same thing.

Stu Jackson · Jun 4, 2010

druid said:
Stu: I believe you're missing MY point. If you take those tests and reviews, go back 20 years, and replace "Rocna" with "Bruce" and you'd get the same tests and reviews.

"If you go back 75 years, replace the Ford Fusion with the Model T."

No, I am not missing your point. You, however, are missing modern times. I hope you enjoy Tim's anchor, and I hope it's big enough for your boat. I still have my Bruce, but, like Maine Sail, I use my Rocna, because it simply HOLDS BETTER for the given weight of anchor.

Stu Jackson · Jun 4, 2010

MoonSailer said:
Druid I think I understand your point. You are saying that the claims are all marketing.

That's simply NOT true.

Please, both of you, why not read/look at Maine Sail's personal unbiased test results?