New Alternator / Regulator

IStream · Mar 26, 2015

What kind of loads will you be imposing on your batteries. Refrigeration? LED or incandescent lighting? Inverter with coffee maker/hair dryer/computers?

Maine Sail · Mar 27, 2015

RonRelyea said:
MaineSail...

I'm will be installing 4 GC2 batteries on my Hunter 32. Also plan on a couple of solbian panels.

I have the stock Yanmar alternator now (55 amps?) ....

Is a beefier alternator (70 amp?) and smart regulator (Balmar MC614-h) in order ? I will be spending strings of days on the hook and would like to get batteries charged without too much engine time.

Thanks!

Ron,

We really need more information.

-How many nights are you away from dock power?

-Is your boat on a mooring or dock with shore charging on a regular basis?

-If you are on a mooring do you have solar?

The answer is that your stock alternator can work..

The reality is that it will not be healthy for your batteries because of the way these Hitachi alternators self protect by reducing charge voltage as they heat up. This leads to extremely slow charging and chronic undercharging, especially for golf cart batteries which prefer 14.6V - 14.8V absorption charging.

Can you convert your alt to external regulation? Sure, and I bet Honey Boo Boo's mom could ski Aspen, but it would not be pretty and performance would need to be limited more than a beefier alternator.

If converting the 55A you likely be looking at current limiting that alt to about 30A to keep it in a the safe temp range when charging a big bank. This is pretty much what the internal regulator does, it just goes about it in a completely different and less healthy manner, than an external regulator does.

Hello Below · Mar 27, 2015

RonRelyea said:
MaineSail .. thanks for the reply..

I don't mind adding a larger (amp wise) alternator and smart regulator but the idea of having to monkey around with getting a new mounting mechanism seems daunting to me. Can I do this with an alternator that will bolt in place?? Is 70amps enough ? 100?

Ron, I have a just replaced my Hitachi (80 amp) alternator on the advice of MS's posts/articles. I installed a Balmar kit which includes a 100 amp alt, MC-614 regulatator, battery temp sensor and alt temp sensor. Like you, I have 4 GC batteries. I also installed a Echo Charge for my starter battery (now renamed reserve battery). The Balmar 6 series drops right in place of the Hitachi. No belt change (Bando V-belt single pulley) and other than the running of cables I had no problems.

I have yet to find any info on programming the regulator for the flooded deep cycle GC batteries yet, so I am stuck at the factory default settings (FDC). I have done dockside trials and all seems to be okay. Today I will do a sea trial on the new system.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Mar 27, 2015

Hello Below said:
Ron, I have a just replaced my Hitachi (80 amp) alternator on the advice of MS's posts/articles. I installed a Balmar kit which includes a 100 amp alt, MC-614 regulatator, battery temp sensor and alt temp sensor. Like you, I have 4 GC batteries. I also installed a Echo Charge for my starter battery (now renamed reserve battery). The Balmar 6 series drops right in place of the Hitachi. No belt change (Bando V-belt single pulley) and other than the running of cables I had no problems.

I have yet to find any info on programming the regulator for the flooded deep cycle GC batteries yet, so I am stuck at the factory default settings (FDC). I have done dockside trials and all seems to be okay. Today I will do a sea trial on the new system.

I keep telling myself I need to do this upgrade but man $1000. I could double or triple my solar array for that. Then I think I could add an external regulator to what I have but I come to same conclusion as Maine Sail wrote about it regulating down to 30 A, the same as it does now. It's so tough to know where to stop upgrade and just go cruising.

IStream · Mar 27, 2015

If tripling your solar array will cover your power budget, it's a no-brainer to do it. Better to (almost) never need an alternator, upgraded or not. However, if the OP doesn't have the real estate or budget to add solar then he may be able to cut his charge time in half with a good externally regulated Balmar 70A setup (if his current Yanmar has a 55A, I doubt the belt/engine will be happy with anything >70A). That said, Solbian panels aren't cheap and if the OP has the real estate, he might be better off with a larger array of cheaper panels and an MPPT charge controller. We really need to know more about his power use, etc.

Maine Sail · Mar 27, 2015

RonRelyea said:
MaineSail .. thanks for the reply..

I'll be retiring soon and plan on cruising the East Coast. Ideally, I'd like to be able to keep the batteries charged without relying on shore power. Solar and an hour a day of running the engine????

I plan on adding a couple of Solbian panels to my bimini ala your PBase posts.

I don't mind adding a larger (amp wise) alternator and smart regulator but the idea of having to monkey around with getting a new mounting mechanism seems daunting to me. Can I do this with an alternator that will bolt in place?? Is 70amps enough ? 100?

For that type of use you will want to invest in a decent alternator & regulator. Ideally your alt should be able to get you back to 80-85% SOC, in approx an hour +/-, then you can try and let the solar do the rest, back to 100% SOC, at least 1-2 days per week.

In order to do this on a 450Ah bank this means replacing approx 35% of capacity in bulk or approx 160Ah's. To do this in an hour would require a large alternator with a serpentine pulley kit.

A 100A alternator, current-limited and running at around 80A, would net you an approx two hour per day bulk charge from 50% to 80-85% SOC. Once absorption voltage is attained you'll want to run an additional 15-20 minutes or more if you can.. As the batteries age & sulfate bulk will take longer and longer.

Getting back to 100% as often as possible will allow your batteries to remain healthier and stay in bulk longer and this is where solar or shore charging come into play, unless you motor for 10+ hours.. If you don't discharge all the way to 50% SOC then your bulk charging time will be shorter.

There is really no sense in alternator charging more than 20-30 minutes beyond bulk or once the battery terminal voltage has attained 14.6V to 14.8V (at the battery terminals) as the CAR (charge acceptance rate) means very inefficient charging beyond this point and solar can then take over.

The last 10% of returned Ah capacity can take 3-5X as long as the previous 40% yet is still very critical to the longevity of the batteries. Stock regulators simply lack the proper absorption voltage to charge golf cart batteries, in a healthy manner, but they can work if all you do is bulk charging (except Hitachi & some Paris-Rhone etc...). Most stock alts are set between 14.2V and 14.4V and this is really too low for PSOC cycling and alt charging with deep cycle golf cart batteries..

A 100A alternator and MC-614 regulator would be a good fit for your prescribed use. If you anticipate eventually adding a serpentine pulley kit, then purchasing a 120A - 140A alternator now will give you growth room and you just current limit the larger alternator, in the regulator settings, to work with your current belt. A larger alternator, working less hard, will last longer.....

Installation & proper programming of a high output alternator is as critical as anything and wiring it properly makes measurable performance differences...

Hello Below · Mar 27, 2015

JK_Boston_Catalina310 said:
I keep telling myself I need to do this upgrade but man $1000. I could double or triple my solar array for that. Then I think I could add an external regulator to what I have but I come to same conclusion as Maine Sail wrote about it regulating down to 30 A, the same as it does now. It's so tough to know where to stop upgrade and just go cruising.

JK, I mulled over installing solar panels rather than a new alternator/regulator. for a long time. However, given the binary sunshine that the PNW experiences through a typical year, the alternator won out. Maybe panels in future years.

We are fortunate that we can sail all year round. Little if any winterizing is necessary. Fall and winter gives us our most consistent winds, albeit with little or no sun and lots of rain. May and October may or may not have sufficent sun to tickle the panels. June through September are normally very dry and will provide an abundance of sun to make a solar system worth while. So given that an alternator is useful 12 months of the year and a solar system maybe 4-6 months, I chose the Balmar.

Different locations may begat a different decision.

gettinthere · Mar 27, 2015

I've always been focused on not getting below 50% SOC. Now that I added 2 more panels, we're not getting below 85% SOC. Yea. And I dialed the Victron down to 750 a/h from 900 and set all the other parameters as instructed.

Except that now I'm sensing that hitting 14.1 volts every day isn't good enough? I bought the base version of the Blue Sky 2512i so I cannot adjust them higher.
Did I commit another sin? Must I repent? Father, I am trying to do the right thing, please forgive my transgressions. Save my soul, or at least save my golf cart batteries.

Stu Jackson · Mar 27, 2015

Hello Below said:
I have yet to find any info on programming the regulator for the flooded deep cycle GC batteries yet, so I am stuck at the factory default settings (FDC). I have done dockside trials and all seems to be okay. Today I will do a sea trial on the new system.

Len,

Nice job. I think the voltage answer would be what the battery manufacturer recommends.

Here's another question for Maine Sail that may, just may, pertain to your question:

The MC-612 AND the 614 regulator manuals both have tables on pages 11 and/or/to 13 of the factory program settings.

I note that the TIMES for the bulk and absorption stages for, for example, the FDC pre-programmed between the two are significantly different. The MC-612 is 36 minutes, the 614 is 18 minutes.

Have you discussed these differences with Balmar?

*************

In my opinion, the times should be adjusted to reflect the type of cruising you do, and the loads on your house bank.

Paul Mermelstein · Mar 28, 2015

I upgraded last year with an Electromaax kit consisting of their 140 amp alternator, Balmar MC614 H external regulator, and temperature sensors for both the alt and batt. I have 2 4D house batteries (400AH combined) and one starter battery, all AGM. To handle the larger alternator, I also installed their pulley and serpentine belt kit. Took some work, but not rocket science. The folks at Electromaax were very helpful by phone and email, and their instructions where great. (I am not connected to the company in any way, just a customer.)

After most of one season, things seem to work very well. My previous stock 55 Amp Hitachi just did not have the power to charge rapidly enough. It was putting out 25-35 amps much of the time. The new system can, and does, put out over 100 amps when needed. I suppose it could go higher, but the need has not yet arisen.

Hello Below · Mar 28, 2015

Stu Jackson said:
Len,

Nice job. I think the voltage answer would be what the battery manufacturer recommends.

Here's another question for Maine Sail that may, just may, pertain to your question:

The MC-612 AND the 614 regulator manuals both have tables on pages 11 and/or/to 13 of the factory program settings.

I note that the TIMES for the bulk and absorption stages for, for example, the FDC pre-programmed between the two are significantly different. The MC-612 is 36 minutes, the 614 is 18 minutes.

Have you discussed these differences with Balmar?

*************

In my opinion, the times should be adjusted to reflect the type of cruising you do, and the loads on your house bank.

Thanks Stu, you reminded me that I had printed out a US 2200 XC2 battery data sheet a while back. From what I calculate the Bulk voltage and Absorption volts are identical at 14.8 and Float comes out to 13.02 which seems rather low to me; but, according to the data sheet "(Optioal Float Charge) - Constant voltage 2.17 vpc (6.51 volts per 6 volt battery) for unlimited time."

I am at a loss as to what to set the 3 times for each stage (Bulk, Absorption, Float). So for now I intend to proram as follow:

FDC (flooded deep cycle)
Belt Manager = 0 (default)
dLc/Start Delay = 45 seconds (per a MS post recommendation)
AHL/High Voltage Limit = 15.6V (default)
CL/Compensation Limit = 14.8V (default)
bv/Bulk Voltage = 14.8V (per US Battery data sheet)
b1c/Bulk Time = 18 min (default)
Av/Absorption Voltage = 14.8V (per US Battery data sheet)
A1c/Absorption Time = 18 min (default)
Fv/Float Voltage = 13.0V ???? (per US Battery data sheet)
F1C/Float Time = min 18 mins (default)
ALL/Low Voltage Limit = 12.7V (default)
FbA/Field Threshold - Bulk to Absorption = 65% (default)
FFL/Field Threshold - Float to Absorption = 65% (default)
AL1/Max Alternator Temp = 108C (default)
B1L/max Battery Temp = 52C (default)
SLP/Slope Voltage Correction = unknown but believe I should set it to 0.168V (per US Battery data sheet -/+ 0.028 vpc for every 10F above or below 80F)

These settings are no doubt far from optimium but hopefully are safe for both the alternator and the batteries (4 x 6V GC)

Thoughts????

Stu Jackson · Mar 29, 2015

Good morning, Len,

Smart idea to find that battery information. The ONLY settings I was questioning, not having heard back on this from Maine Sail, are the ones I left in the quote below. So, I did a little more research.

The goal is to obtain the most efficient charging from your alternator WHEN YOUR HOUSE BANK IS DEPLETED, say after a night on the hook. This generally means a reasonable time for the bulk charge to bring the bank back up. Your battery monitor will answer the "When is that?" question.

Only because my MC-612 regulator is twice the time, I had thought the bulk and absorption times were short, from my experience "on the hook" with the fridge running.

Try the 18 minutes. If you find, in real life, BASED ON YOUR USE OF THE HOUSE BANK AND DRAW-DOWN for various sailing experiences (i.e., daysails vs. one or two nights on the hook), that the charging VOLTAGE never gets to 14.8V in eighteen minutes, then you could increase the time.

The manual, page 7, says:

Calculated Bulk Charge - Holds voltage at bulk level for six minutes, then calculates battery condition by comparing existing voltage, time at voltage, and field percentage to target values. If values are met, the regulator advances to the next stage. If values are not met, the regulator continues to bulk charge and compares real-time to target values. This will re-occur until all values are met.

If values (the regulator can only sense voltage, it knows nothing about current) are not met it appears to be saying that the regulator will sense that the voltage level is not met and will stay in bulk. I say "it appears to be" ONLY because I have never personally seen this in operation (because I personally haven't looked) and is what I'm suggesting you check, and because my MC-612 regulator is the same but it is 36 minutes for this stage of charging. Remember, this is what prompted my post on this in the first place.

If the regulator will stay in bulk automatically, then my "chicken little" concerns are meaningless and everything will be just fine because the regulator algorithm will continue each stage of charging AUTOMATICALLY, until the voltages are met.

Maybe it's not an issue after all.:dance:

Here's a PERFECT case of when I should have said:

Hey, Stu, before you scare a friend about his new installation

RTFM

It really looks like you're fine with the factory settings to start off with, and then check as you sail around.

Nice way to start the day, eh?

Stu

Hello Below said:
I am at a loss as to what to set the 3 times for each stage (Bulk, Absorption, Float). So for now I intend to program as follow:

b1c/Bulk Time = 18 min (default)

A1c/Absorption Time = 18 min (default)

F1C/Float Time = min 18 mins (default)

Maine Sail · Mar 29, 2015

Guys,

A few quick thoughts..

The factory settings are "Lawyer Safe" not performance based....

If you want the best performance they should be adjusted..

Bulk Voltage or b1c - This is really NOT a bulk voltage because there is NO SUCH THING as a bulk voltage. Consider this ABSORPTION #1

So set b1c (ABSORPTION 1) to at least 1 hour and the bv to 14.8V

Set a1c (ABSORPTION 2) for at least 4 hours and the av to 14.7V

Set fv at 13.8V

Set Belt Manager to level 2 or 3

Set b1L (max batt temps) at 45C

Hello Below · Mar 29, 2015

Sorry for the tardy response, 3 days on the boat and some fine sailing.

Thanks to both Stu and Maine Sail for their current and previous posts with respect to the Balmar MC programming. Both were the motivating influence for the acquisition. The manual is far from helpful and there are places were they contradict themselves. Some of the written default values even differ from what the actual values preset in the regulator on flash up. I hope with this forum's assistance to at least improve the new alternator and regulator's performance if not get the best out of it. That's the least I can strive for after putting some 50 hours of install time (believe it or not).

So my job now is to input the new recommended settings, monitor the Victron and for now leave the remainder alone.

Len

So my job now is to reprogram the 614

Hello Below · Mar 30, 2015

Maine Sail said:
Set Belt Manager to level 2 or 3

Maine, I have noted on a number of occasions that you recommend dialing back the Belt Manager and I understand that by reducing the load, the altenator will no doubt have a longer life. However, would not decreasing the "Alternator Temperature Threshold" (AL1) down accomplish the same thing and may even be a more effective tool given that heat normally is a good measure of wear especially for an alternator? My thinking is that by doing the latter, the alt could (may???) operate at 100% for a period of time until if reaches a set temperature (AL1) at which time the point field current would be reduced. Maybe I just don't know enough about what effect the reduction of the point field current would be.

I have adjusted the bEL = 2 and left AL1 at the default (108c) until you advise me otherwise.

Len

Maine Sail · Mar 30, 2015

Hello Below said:
Maine, I have noted on a number of occasions that you recommend dialing back the Belt Manager and I understand that by reducing the load, the altenator will no doubt have a longer life. However, would not decreasing the "Alternator Temperature Threshold" (AL1) down accomplish the same thing and may even be a more effective tool given that heat normally is a good measure of wear especially for an alternator? My thinking is that by doing the latter, the alt could (may???) operate at 100% for a period of time until if reaches a set temperature (AL1) at which time the point field current would be reduced. Maybe I just don't know enough about what effect the reduction of the point field current would be.

I have adjusted the bEL = 2 and left AL1 at the default (108c) until you advise me otherwise.

Len

By using alt temp as the controller for the alt you will have belt dusting issues unless you also have a serpentine pulley kit.. 226F is a fine alt temp limit but alt temp limiting is a bit risky in that if the alt temp sensor were to fail, and on occasion they do, you have no other means of controlling alt temp during bulk charging. By setting belt manager you;

A) limit belt dusting
B) know your max amperage and it will be more consistent
C) if adjusted correctly the alt will never get much above 210 - 215F and this means longer life..
D) have a double insurance policy and alt temp becomes your redundancy policy

Alt temp limit also tends to be jumpy and drops in steps and rebounds in steps and generally yields less output than just limiting the field for a more consistent max output. The newer regs use a more adaptive alt temp adjustment, as opposed to the old 50% all at once cut then back to 100%, but it is still a bit clunky and you wind up in a game of ping-pong up/down up/down etc.. Don't get me wrong the new adaptive temp sensing is far better than the old but I still prefer to set the alt up to not exceed 210-220F under normal bulk charging conditions.

None of these small case alternators are constant duty so they are not designed to run for hours on end at full output. Yes they are a lot more robust than a stock alternator but still not an industrial alternator... This is why a good set up includes belt manager (formerly called amp manager).. The 6 series 100A alternator will output about 80-83A at 190F thus it is best to set it up for a max output of right around 80A but 70-75A is a bit better as 190F is often a dream temp in most boat engine bays and the more likely temp will be over 200F during a long bulk charge......

Paul Mermelstein · Mar 31, 2015

Maine Sail:

Great info as always. Question: are the values in your prior post for AGM too (specifically voltage settings)?

Thanks.