Neutral of Forward gear while sailing?

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Feb 6, 1998
11,711
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Why would the engine guy care what position it is in if the motor will not turn over? Perhaps the loads on the transmission input shaft spline will cause some wear, otherwise I doubt the compressive and tension loads on the connecting rods will be a problem as they will see higher forces in operation. Besides in reverse these forces should be the same just in opposite directions. Assuming a static propeller (not turning) the forces from the flow stream will cause a torque in the shaft in the same direction whether in forward or reverse. Having the transmission in reverse should cause the torque transmitted to the input shaft to be in opposite direction than in forward gear. So the question of the day is why is this important?
Jibes,

1- The HBW series of gear boxes will "slip" if left in forward gear while sailing. This will eventually ruin the clutch plates. Locking it in reverse will prevent the clutch plates from slipping. Neutral is also fine on these gear boxes just not forward while sailing.

2- Remember that most of the HBW's are a 2:1 reduction gear. Ignoring "slip" in forward gear, trying to spin it from the prop end is multiples harder than spinning it from the engine end.

Think of an old ten speed bike with the chain on the small sprocket at the pedals and the big sprocket at the wheel. It makes for easy but slow pedaling. This is how the engine sees the gear box, small sprocket first then to big sprocket. Now flip that scenario around and you'd have the big sprocket in front and the little one at the wheel. Considerably harder to turn the pedals or crank in this scenario. This is like spinning the engine from the prop end..

Considering a 3 blade 16X10 "Mickey Mouse ears" Michigan Wheel prop will only give roughly 36-39 pounds of drag when locked at roughly 4 knots, and the same prop freewheeling will yield about 14 pounds of drag, at the same speeds when freewheeling. From this one can draw some conclusion that perhaps 100% of the force of a locked prop is not necessarily driven to rotational force on the shaft or gear box as you already have some cutlass and stuffing box resistance too.

36 pounds locked, minus 14 pounds freewheel, still leaves 22 pounds on the table to play with. It seems apparent that not all of the 36 pounds of drag when locked gets to the gear box to begin with. Even at 36-39 pounds that is clearly not enough to turn over a motor when going backwards through a 2:1 + reduction gear.. I've even surfed down waves in mono-hulls with locked props at over 12 knots and still never had an engine turn over.

I see your point but the real issue is that the HBW's will "slip" in forward, not lock as they do in reverse, This can kill the clutches hence the warning of reverse or neutral while sailing on the HBW's...

Hope that made at least some sense?:confused:
 
Sep 1, 2009
14
Beneteau Oceanis 351 Seattle
If a boat prop works like and airplane prop, there is less drag on a stopped prop.
 
Feb 5, 2009
255
Gloucester 20 Kanawha River, Winfield, WV
What's best?
Setting aside the mechanical considerations that are being bandied about, when I leave the outboard down on my little boat while sailing, I leave it in neutral and let the prop freewheel. It makes a very noticeable amount of drag, so much so that in light wind (which is where I do most of my sailing) I can feel the boat surge forward when I lift the motor up. So when the warm weather returns, if I still remember by then, I think I'll try putting it in gear to see if there's a noticeable difference with the prop stopped. (I'll worry about whether to use forward or reverse when the time comes.)
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,105
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Small outboards typically have dog clutches and not cone clutches like most inboard transmissions.. If yours has a dog clutch, it really doesn't make any difference which gear ya leave it in other than prop drag.. best to tip it up in anycase.. A cone clutch left to freewheel in forward gear will wear out the forward clutch..
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
A locked prop can cause more drag on a sailboat..
There are combinations of boat speeds and props that will have less drag freewheeling and there are others that will have less drag when fixed. I've looked at every "scientific" study I can find and I see flaws in the methods of each.

The only way to know for sure is to test it on your boat provided that freewheeling is an option for the transmission.

Personally I can't stand the noise and my folder drives the boat and reverses just fine. It seems to me that anyone that spends enough time sailing to worry about prop drag under sail should have a folding or feathering prop. The boat should be faster and more comfortable under sail than motoring anyway. I think that is why they call the engine an auxiliary? :)
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,711
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
There are combinations of boat speeds and props that will have less drag freewheeling and there are others that will have less drag when fixed. I've looked at every "scientific" study I can find and I see flaws in the methods of each.
Which studies have you looked at? I am curious to know what flaws you found. All three of the major published studies/white papers/articles agree with each other that a typical fixed blade prop, like those found on sailboats, cause more drag when locked..
 
Jul 17, 2006
75
Oday 302 Port Henry
Neutral

The only boat I am an expert on is mine. It has a yanmar 2gm20 with a motor oil filled splash lubricated reduction gear. Sailing the boat with the shaft locked is like dragging a bucket. The boat had a 2 bladed fixed prop and always sailed faster in neutral but I did not like the noise. Now we sail in neutral with a folding three bladed prop.

The boat owner is always right by default.
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
Which studies have you looked at? I am curious to know what flaws you found. All three of the major published studies/white papers/articles agree with each other that a typical fixed blade prop, like those found on sailboats, cause more drag when locked..
The most basic flaw is that they don't measure props that are properly pitched for the speeds tested.

In the study that used the MIT tunnel, look at the prop eff numbers that they used. IIRC they worked backwards:

We need X thrust to motor at Y speed. Rather than select a Thrust / Speed ratio that allowed the 13 x 10 props they tested to work at their peak efficiency of 70-80% they were loaded down to huge slip ratios. A sign of too much pitch IMO.

The drag of a prop blade is not a constant. The drag varies with angle of flow (Angle of Attack). A fixed prop is a stalled foil with little or no lift and the drag is a simple function of exposed area, kinematic viscosity of the fluid, and velocity^2. When the prop is freewheeling the blades are generating lift and that lift creates induced drag. At high AoA the induced drag is also high. The freewheeling speed of the prop is limited (even with frictionless bearings) to the RPM where the lift that is causing the prop to spin is equal to the sum of the induced drag and the form or profile drag. 100% of the spin producing lift is balanced by the drag. Any attempt to tow the prop faster turns the prop into a brake. The slip ratio increases and the blades are effectively stalled.

It should be obvious that higher pitched props will turn at lower rpm at any given tow speed. As long as that speed is below the point where the prop is stalled, the freewheeling drag will be lower than the fixed drag, once the speed reaches the limit where lift = drag the freewheeling prop will have more drag than when fixed.

You can test this very easily. Build two props with identical blade area, set the pitch of one prop to 60 deg and the other to 30 deg. tow them both. The higher pitch prop will have less drag and lower RPM for every towing speed. At some point the low pitched prop will "hit the wall" and the drag curve will no longer be linear but start going up exponentially.

If any of the tests had looked at the drag curves of the props over a range of speeds this pattern would be obvious and they would have discovered that at some speed the drag curve of the freewheeling prop would cross and exceed the drag curve of the fixed prop.

As long as the combination of pitch and towing speed is in the range where slip angles are low, the freewheeling prop will have less drag. This is the condition that generated all the data that leads to the false conclusion that freewheeling is always lower drag.

Add to this that sailboat props do not operate in a free stream or at zero shaft angles (in most cases). On a typical fin keel, prop, shaft, and strut are exposed to local flow with a pressure gradient. The local flow changes the AoA as the blades revolve because the prop is not square to the flow. This creates a disk that does not have even drag over its surface and the prop itself is modifying the local flow over the hull. None of these real world conditions were duplicated in the tests making the results even more suspect.

The basic rule should be, that at some low boat speeds a freewheeling prop will have less drag, at some measurable speed the drag will be equal, and above that speed the locked prop will have less drag.

The drag/speed curve is altered by the friction in the shaft and the higher speed of higher drag from the freewheeling prop may be faster than the boat can sail. This is the case for prop installations that require high pitch angles at low RPM (high slip ratios) to provide the thrust needed.

That is why when asked this question, the only real answer is, "It depends". Some props that must spin at high RPM and low pitch (like many/most Atomic 4 direct drives) will be better of with the prop locked. A big prop on a proper install that works at low RPM and higher pitch will probably be better freewheeling at low sailing speeds and locked at high sailing speeds.

There are too many variables that the tests did not take into account to make a blanket statement. If freewheeling or fixed was a black and white question with a 100% true in all cases answer, common knowledge would have stopped this debate 100 years ago.
 

Gary_H

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Nov 5, 2007
469
Cal 2-25 Carolina Beach NC
My Universal 5411 Operation and Maintenance Manual which includes the Hurth Model HBW-5 says simply "Transmission can be left in neutral when sailing."
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,078
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Gary, please

for searches: transmission position

re read Replies #7, 17 & 19 on page 1 of this thread. The engine manual alone is NOT the "final answer."
 
Last edited:
Feb 6, 1998
11,711
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
There are too many variables that the tests did not take into account to make a blanket statement. If freewheeling or fixed was a black and white question with a 100% true in all cases answer, common knowledge would have stopped this debate 100 years ago.
It's not just MIT. The University of Strathclyde's Ocean Engineering Department also looked at this. Then, last year, Yachting Monthly, a European publication, actually pulled real sailboats through the water, at sailboat speeds, and came to the same conclusion.

You are right that this is not a simple question, it is not. I think though that it got more interesting when YM actually towed a real sailboat through the water, at sailboat speeds, with a strain gauge in fixed and free wheeling, and the conclusion was still that the locked prop caused more drag.

Interestingly enough I also did some of my own testing with a very typical 16"X12P three blade Michigan Wheel and the results were not even close. The locked prop caused significantly more drag when towed through the water. I even closely matched the bearing resistance to that of my own vessel.

In the video I could only get to about 4.2 knots towing the jig but I later replicated this with a larger motor and got to 6.5-6.9 knots and the results were similar except that the locked prop maxed out my scale so I could not discern max load of the locked prop with only a 50 pound scale.

[ttyouyube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI-UG9RSlJo[/ttyouyube]


Over last winter there were a few discussion that lead to no hard conclusions on whether a fixed prop or a locked prop causes more drag. There have been two studies that have both concluded that a freewheeling prop causes less drag but these studies were done in test tanks and some sailors argued that vortexes created within the tanks throw off the results.

I don't like not knowing.:doh:

I've spent a few late nights in the barn, over the winter, listening to good tunes and plugging away on this design. This jig should simulate and what we want to know. It was affixed off the side of my dinghy and dragged through the water ahead of the motor, to avoid vortexes & whirligigs and what ever else, and at a depth similar to that of my sailboats fixed prop.

I measured it both locked and freewheeling and I also measured the drag of the apparatus alone to subtract it from the actual drag of the props minus the test apparatus. I designed the bearings to have a similar resistance to the prop shaft on my own sail boat so from that perspective all quite comparable in terms of freewheeling. While not my boat I was only after the question "does a free spinning typical Michigan three blade sailboat prop cause more or less drag when it moves through the water than a locked one?"

The drag measurements were captured with a 50 Lb. analog scale (ditched the digital as analog showed better on video) and GPS SOG so as to more accurately compare between the same prop in both fixed and freewheeling modes. The range of motion on the scale (movement of the hook) from 0-50 lbs. is about 1/8" so this did not affect any readings what so ever by changing the angle of the test jig in the water..

The props I used are standard three blade fixed sailboat props. One is made by Michigan Wheel. I call it the "Dumbo ears prop" and the other was my new Campbell Sailor prop. Unlike Dumbo ears the Campbell Sailor has blades that are shaped like an airplanes wings (creates lift) so this will be a good test of the "helicopter theory"..

This is an age old argument, with a relatively easy test, yet surprisingly no one has done it, not even Practical Sailor..:confused::confused:


The Test jig:



The Shaft Mechanism (the nail is the shaft lock):



The Drag Measurement Assembly:



The Hinge Mechanism:



The Digital 50 Lb. Scale:



The Campbell Sailor Prop:




Michigan Wheel Data Updated 4/18/09:

The results of the Michigan Wheel MP prop have been completed. I want to reiterate some points below so there is less confusion.

1) This test was only to determine if a standard Michigan Wheel three blade fixed prop causes more or less drag when towed through the ocean at a similar depth to that of a sailboat and with a comparable shaft resistance to a sailboat (namely mine). It is not to give accurate numbers or data on how much drag the specific prop creates.

2) Drag is relative to the the drag jig I used. The drag jig alone, with no prop, created about 12 lbs. of drag in this configuration at WOT.

3) Because the jig is 100% the same in both fixed and freewheeling and the only difference between fixed and freewheeling was a 2.5 inch roofing nail the only differences in drag come from the prop not being able to spin and spinning.

4) The motor was always run up to wide open throttle to totally minimize any variability between locked and freewheeling and throttle position.

5) The pin point accuracy of the scale means little because it is only a control. The same scale was used for both fixed and freewheeling and it was only compared to itself in an A/B situation.

6) The difference between fixed and freewheeling was very, very large so a pound or two here or there means little. Average drag at WOT in freewheeling mode was about 20-25 pounds including the test jigs strut. Average drag in fixed mode including the strut was about 45-50 pounds. As you can see .001 differences in accuracy did not matter much when trying to answer my curiosity.

When I spun the strut around, with the prop facing forward, and ahead of the struts interference wake, I was surprised that i could not detect a discernible difference in drag load despite having to move the line a little higher on the strut. If there was a difference it was clearly less than one or two pounds and not noticeable in the scale of things.

7) Freewheeling is little bit of a misnomer. The shaft was not actually allowed to freewheel with minimal to no friction. The friction bearings were tightened and adjusted to closely mimic the friction of my own sailboats shaft. This test was primarily for me and my own curiosity and then secondarily for the sailing community. This is why the depth of the prop in the water matches my CS-36T and the shaft friction was set to begin spinning at about .8 - 1.2 knots which is what it does on my own boat.

8) The results are quite clear and quite discernible and coincide with those of the MIT study, the University of Strathclyde study and some other prop drag tests like the one in Yachting Monthly magazine jwhere they towed actual boats through the water and measured the drag.

9) This experiment is about the prop used, a Michigan Wheel three blade "MP" prop. I make NO claims or suggestions about any other fixed type props including a two blade version of the Michigan Wheel MP. If someone wants to send me a two blade MP in a 1" shaft size I will be glad to test it too..;)

10) As far as I know this the only video proof that clearly shows a fixed vs. freewheeling three blade Michigan Wheel sailboat prop being load tested and compared to itself in both fixed and locked mode.


11) Before you get all fired up because you are a believer that fixed three blade props cause less drag, not more, PLEASE remember that the only difference between the fixed and freewheeling modes was a 2.5" nail passing through both the jig and the 1" shaft to lock it. There is no possible way that 2.5" nail caused a nearly 50% difference in drag or a 25 additional pounds of resistance.;)
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
It's not just MIT. The University of Strathclyde's Ocean Engineering Department also looked at this. Then, last year, Yachting Monthly, a European publication, actually pulled real sailboats through the water, at sailboat speeds, and came to the same conclusion.

You are right that this is not a simple question, it is not. I think though that it got more interesting when YM actually towed a real sailboat through the water, at sailboat speeds, with a strain gauge in fixed and free wheeling, and the conclusion was still that the locked prop caused more drag.

Interestingly enough I also did some of my own testing with a very typical 16"X12P three blade Michigan Wheel and the results were not even close. The locked prop caused significantly more drag when towed through the water. I even closely matched the bearing resistance to that of my own vessel.

In the video I could only get to about 4.2 knots towing the jig but I later replicated this with a larger motor and got to 6.5-6.9 knots and the results were similar except that the locked prop maxed out my scale so I could not discern max load of the locked prop with only a 50 pound scale.
Your tests at those speeds with a 12"P prop give predicable results.

A 12P prop at 4.2 knots is spinning at 420RPM if the slip ratio is zero. At 6.5 knots it is spinning at 650RPM at zero slip. (using 6000 ft / nm because I'm lazy)

The average speed of the water across a spinning prop is not the same as the towing speed. The speed of the water that the tip of the "sees" is equal to circumference X RPM. The average speed the blade "sees" is at one half the diameter.

For your 16x12P prop the average water velocity at your test speeds and zero slip RPM is 209% of the towing speed. A 16x6P prop would see 418% of the towing speed at the blade.

For towing speed 4.2 the average blade speeds are:
14.7 FPS for Pitch = 12
29.3 FPS for Pitch = 6

Drag = Cd x area x 1/2 x kinematic viscosity x velocity^2

The same blade at P=12 and P=6 will have the same area, the same CD, and the viscosity of the water is the same the constants become one factor the only variable is velocity ... so for this test:

Drag = Constant x V^2
Assume Constant = 1
The 6P prop will have Drag = 4 times the 12P drag just due to the higher RPM is must spin at zero slip.

If two props of the same blade area can have a difference of 400% in drag just due to pitch change, just how valid are the tests you ran?

It would be more valid to test two props with the same diameter and blade area with two different pitches. The drag curves will not be the same. The lower pitch prop will always have greater drag since it must spin faster at the same towing speed.

I'm not trying to argue or prove you or anyone else wrong, I am just pointing out that the biggest variable in towing drag tests is the pitch of the prop.

If you can get a feathering prop and lock the pitch at different angles you will get different drag numbers for the same towing speeds. A feathered blade will see water speed = tow speed. The drag will be X. Ad some pitch to the blade so it spins and the water speed over the blade will be higher than when not spinning and the drag will be increased by the square of that increase. At 0 pitch the prop will not spin and the full blade area will be the only source of drag.

Prop RPM will be zero when feathered (infinite pitch) and zero when set to 0 pitch. The drag will be directly proportional to the area at 90 degrees to the flow.

A freewheeling prop will reduce the effective area 90 degrees to the flow. To do this it must generate lift from the blades to overcome the increased drag due to the increased velocity from non-zero RPM. The same prop will have minimum drag when not spinning and feathered, more drag if pitch forces it to spin to align the blades with local flow and even more drag when locked with the blades at zero pitch.

I really admire your method. You have repeatable results and a scientific approach to the problem, however, like the other tests, your set of variables produce results that are only valid for the test conditions. You did not tow fast enough to get a 12P prop to reach it's limiting RPM.

One of the things to look at is the effective drag area of the props tested. For a 12P prop of the classic Michigan Wheel type the blades are twisted, they have a shallow angle at the tip and a steep angle near the hub. Ideally for one revolution each part of the blade will advance 12 inches. Since the tip travels twice as far through the water as the middle of the blade the tip angle will be about half of the average angle. Figure out what the area of the blade is at this angle and compare it to the area at 90 degrees to the shaft. It will be much smaller. Perhaps only 15% of the area when at the design point of 12P compared to its area at 90 deg.

Drag = Cd x Area x 1/2 x kV x V^2

We are only changing Area this time so 1/2 kV, V^2, and CD become our constant and drag is a linear function of Area.

I would expect a spinning prop to have only 15% of the drag of the locked prop based on area alone.

It is not as simple as this. The Cd also changes. For the blade at the design angle Cd might be .5 and for a flat plate (locked) it might be 1.17 or so.

Now we have:
Drag Locked = 1.17 x Locked Area x kV x V^2
Drag Spinning = .1 x Spinning Area x kV x V^2

A 16" diameter disk has area = 201.66 in^2 ... the blade area might be 25% of this for a three bladed prop? So 50 in^2? or .35 ft^2

Assume Locked Area to be .35 ft^2 the spinning area to be .05 ft^2 and the kV of water to be 1. (So the formula produces drag in pounds)

At 4.2 knots (7FPS)
Dlocked = 1.17 x .35 x .5 x 7^2 = 10 pounds Drag
Dspin12P = .5 x .05 x .5 x 14.7^2 = 3 pounds Drag
Dspin6P = .5 x .05 x .5 x 29.3^2 = 11 pounds Drag

Simple math suggests that you should have seen a 70% increase in drag for the prop when locked. It also suggests that had you tested a 6P prop you would have seen a drag increase when the prop was freewheeling.

It gets even more complicated than this. The drag estimates above do not consider shaft friction. The spinning drag estimates are the drag that must be overcome to spin the prop. That force has to come from lift generated by the blade. For constant RPM the lift will equal the blade drag. So the Cl of the blade will equal the Cd ... this gets us into 3D foil theory and induced drag. The result will be that the spinning prop will have higher drag than this estimate and the low pitched prop will have higher drag than when fixed at a lower boat speed.

High pitch props at the speeds tested lead to one conclusion, low pitched props tested under the same conditions will lead to the opposite conclusion.

As you said, your results are valid for those two props at those speeds. That does not mean that all props are lower drag when freewheeling at all speeds.

The relationships become very complex and all the testing done has not lead to valid conclusions for all cases.

This is something that I tested years ago with props on model aircraft. The same debate rages ... "How is glide effected by a locked, feathered, freewheeling, or folding prop?"

As you might guess the drag low to high is:
Folding
Feathering
and "It depends on pitch and glide speed" for Freewheeling vs Locked.

The same is true for sailboat props.

:D
 
May 24, 2004
154
Catalina 310 Virginia Beach, VA
UNIVERSAL DIESEL WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION Model HBW-50 (2:1)
Used on Models 12, M2-12, M-18, M3-20, M4-30, M25 and M-25XP

Model HBW-100 (1.8:1)
Used on Models 30, 35, and 40

Model HBW-150 (1.9:1)
Used on Model 50

Model HBW-150 V-Drive (2.13:1)
Used on All of our V-Drive Models

CAUTION
DO NOT LEAVE GEAR IN FORWARD WHEN SAILING. GEAR MUST BE IN NEUTRAL FOR FREE WHEELING OR SHIFTED INTO REVERSE TO LOCK PROPELLER WHILE SAILING.

A. DESCRIPTION:

The Hurth transmission housing is made of a high strength aluminum alloy that is resistant to sea water. The transmission is equipped with shaved and case hardened helical gears and with shafts mounted in heavy-duty roller bearings. Forward and reverse is accomplished by a mechanical friction clutch.
 
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