Networking NMEA 2000 ... help!

[Blitz]

Scott,

There have been 15 updates to the software for the i70 since the initial release. Maybe you might not need them, but the first time in which you have issues Raymarine will ask that you update the software to the latest and then troubleshoot from there. You are correct on the calibration; you'll need an I70 or I70s to do that.

I would suggest looking at the software update section of the Raymarine website. It was like the 8th update that brought the instrument fully compliant with the NMEA 2000 standard.

Product Support | Raymarine

Find the latest Raymarine software, manuals and product information here including report a repair, speak to an expert and new Raymarine product registration.

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I am by no means an expert, but have chosen not to mix brands but understand that it can be done and the benefits of looking at the B&G line.

By the way my only experience is with the installation and updating the following Raymarine items I have on my boat; SPX-5 wheel pilot with the ST6002 display, e3 Chartplotter/MFD, AIS 650, ST60 Wind, SeaTalk to Seatalk NG converter kit, I70 instrument, I70S Instrument, & the DST800 Transducer (Speed/Depth/Temp) on my boat along with the ICOM IC-M504A VHK with the Command mic.

 

[Ward H]

@Blitz is correct, you cannot update software with an i70. You need a RM CP to do the updates.

To clarify another comment made, transducer signals are not SeaTalk signals. The transducers need the appropriate dedicated display to send and interpret returned signals and in some cases voltages. And those dedicated displays hold the calibration settings for the transducer. It's my understanding the newer displays with STng connectors then put their data on the network for all network devices to use. What's the point of connecting one of the dedicated displays to the STng network if it does not put it's data on the network?
OR the transducers need to be connected to a iTC-5. The iTC-5 replaces the dedicated displays work of sending and receiving the data from the transducers, putting the data on the network and calibrating the transducers.
Just like the dedicated displays can calibrate their dedicated transducer, the iTC5 can calibrate the transducers by using the i70 display.

@Scott T-Bird You could leave your transducers connected to your current dedicated displays and should be able to see their data on the network. But you indicated that the connector on the wind cable or that display may not be working. That's a good reason to go with an iTC5 and then you only need one backbone cable run up to the pedestal for all of your STng instruments.

I found it interesting that my RM Axiom needed a device net to STng spur cable to connect it to the backbone.

As @Blitz said, the i70 and I believe the iTC5 get updates. The most critical updates are for the EV autopilot devices.
Probably most updates are ensure a complete system works well and to enhance features. For what you are doing, you probably don't need to worry about them.
Why is the CP needed for updates? RM uses their chart potters as the master device to look at all connected RM devices and determine what needs updating and then processing those updates. The updates are downloaded from a PC to a SD card and loaded into the CP. Then the CP takes over the updating.

I'm thinking if you can find a new connector for the wind transducer put that on the end of the cable and give it a go. Probably the simplest solution. If it's a bad display, then a replacement display may be the simple way to do.

If you do go with the i70 and iTC5 it will be simple to bring them over to my boat, connect them to my system and update.

With the i70 being able to display 10 different screens that let you control the layout of almost any data you have on your network, I think the tech side of you will love it.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

With the i70 being able to display 10 different screens that let you control the layout of almost any data you have on your network, I think the tech side of you will love it.

Thanks for all of the above, that helps clarify! I'm not so sure my "tech side" is up to par, even though I'm trying!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I would suggest looking at the software update section of the Raymarine website. It was like the 8th update that brought the instrument fully compliant with the NMEA 2000 standard.

I am by no means an expert, but have chosen not to mix brands but understand that it can be done and the benefits of looking at the B&G line.

By the way my only experience is with the installation and updating the following Raymarine items I have on my boat; SPX-5 wheel pilot with the ST6002 display, e3 Chartplotter/MFD, AIS 650, ST60 Wind, SeaTalk to Seatalk NG converter kit, I70 instrument, I70S Instrument, & the DST800 Transducer (Speed/Depth/Temp) on my boat along with the ICOM IC-M504A VHK with the Command mic.

Neal, thanks for that explanation! So, I assume that in purchasing a new i70 I will have the updated software? In any event, with @Ward H assistance, I'm pretty sure we can work it out. I already had a mixed brand system with a Garmin CP (NMEA 0183) anyway. I'm not very concerned about mixing the brands at this point. It seems that on NMEA 2000 all will be compatible.

I'll let everybody know how well it works when I have everything purchased and installed. That may take a month. Right now, I just have the new CP installed and everything is operating independently, except that I no longer have the GPS/AIS transfer of data between the CP and VHF as I did before on NMEA 0183. I'll be working on that asap.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

If you do go with the i70 and iTC5 it will be simple to bring them over to my boat, connect them to my system and update.

Why wouldn't the ones I buy already be updated? Would it be that the store models aren't necessarily current?

 

[Ward H]

Why wouldn't the ones I buy already be updated? Would it be that the store models aren't necessarily current?

You don't know how long they have sat in a warehouse, another warehouse and on a store shelve. However, I doubt they may be far behind on updates. For your use they will probably be fine. In fact, I wouldn't update them if they all worked out of the box unless you read of a feature that you may not have on yours. I really think that most updates are for compatibility of various RM equipment, minor bug fixes and AP improvements.
Granted I've never read what the various updates contain. I updated my system when I installed it in 2019. I think I've updated once since then.

 

[Johann]

Thanks @Scott T-Bird for starting this topic. I think it is helping lift some of the Seatalk fog for me. So here is what I think I understand… maybe it is helpful. The STng signal is equivalent to N2k. The STng cable carries this N2k signal but also has an ST1 signal cable inside (look at the STng cable pinout). Raymarine must have done this for backward compatibility. So a device connected via an STng cable could be operating on either ST1 or STng(N2k). STng cannot be daisy chained. It must operate on a backbone with drop cables and a terminating resistor on each end of the backbone, but the ST1 signal inside the STng cable can be daisy chained. If you see daisy chained instruments connect via the STng cable they are communicating via ST1. This is you current setup, and if you simple connect these instruments to an STng network via a drop cable they won’t transmit STng data, but will transmit ST1. In order to get the data on the STng network, you need to either use the ST1 to STng conversion kit, or connect the transducers directly to the itc-5. If you use the conversion kit, you will not need the i70, since you will calibrate on the individual devices. But if you are planning on upgrading instruments in the future the itc-5 seems like the best choice… just not the quickest or cheapest.

 

[Ward H]

STng cannot be daisy chained.

Actually it can be but it does not meet MNEA 200 standards. Earlier RM displays did have two STng ports and could be daisy chained for the STng network.
It is my understanding from, I think, @LeslieTroyer, RM wants their devices to be NMEA certified so to meet the cert they stopped putting two ports on the back of the displays. When I was researching my system back in 2018-2019 I found i70s with two ports but by the time I pulled the trigger they were gone. A vender for RM at the Annapolis boat show confirmed this.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

@ward glad you're at my marina!

 

[Johann]

Actually it can be but it does not meet MNEA 200 standards. Earlier RM displays did have two STng ports and could be daisy chained for the STng network.

And the fog rolls back in…

 

[Scott T-Bird]

And the fog rolls back in…

Ha! That's the nature of fog!

 

[Johann]

Any update on the setup?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Nothing to report yet ... I purchased and started to install the networking components. The diagrams from Raymarine are pretty good. I'm still fuzzy about the need to install the iTC-5 and i70 display. I'm first going to see how the i60 and i50 displays network with the chartplotter after linking just the displays into the network. The transducers will still be connected directly to the displays. If that doesn't give me satisfaction, then I will purchase those 2 instruments and make the transducer links into the network. I'm confident with the connections for the autopilot controls and I bought a networking cable that links my 0183 VHF to the Chartplotter via a dedicated port for 0183 on the CP. That should give me the cross-talk between VHF and CP for the AIS and GPS positioning. The only thing I will need to check and correct if necessary is the BAUD rate on the CP. (The VHF needs GPS from the chartplotter, the chartplotter needs AIS from the VHF - both are connected via 0183).

I've been waiting on some deck penetration fittings that I want. I am dedicating this weekend to making a dry fit to see how this comes together, so I should have a better understanding after that. Like I said above, the only thing I am unsure about is the need for the iTC-5 and i70. I won't be disappointed if I need to purchase those instruments. I have an open spot for the i70 display anyway and won't mind installing it if it makes the difference!

 

[Ward H]

I've been waiting on some deck penetration fittings that I want.

Are these for your instrument set up? If yes is it because the pedestal guards are full of cables already?
If yes, I'd certainly reconsider the iTC5 and i70 before I'd start cutting holes to bring up more wires. With those two instruments installed you only need power, backbone cable and the SeaTalk 0183 cable. All you helm instruments can then be connected via spur cables to the backbone in the instrument pod.
Maybe using a device to put 0183 data on the STng network will let you do that at the radio for AIS and in the pod for GPS so you don't need 0183 cables going between the those two devices. Now you're down to power and backbone going up the pedestal guard.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Are these for your instrument set up? If yes is it because the pedestal guards are full of cables already?
If yes, I'd certainly reconsider the iTC5 and i70 before I'd start cutting holes to bring up more wires. With those two instruments installed you only need power, backbone cable and the SeaTalk 0183 cable. All you helm instruments can then be connected via spur cables to the backbone in the instrument pod.
Maybe using a device to put 0183 data on the STng network will let you do that at the radio for AIS and in the pod for GPS so you don't need 0183 cables going between the those two devices. Now you're down to power and backbone going up the pedestal guard.

I've already got one existing hole in the floor right next to the pedestal that I recently cleaned out. So, I want to put a proper fitting there for at least one cable. That's where I plan to put the new cable for the 0183 connection to the CP. It happens to be a 0183 & video port on the CP and it's a fat cable that won't pass easily through the guard. I already have the links dedicated & wired in the space down below the floor so I don't have to chase back to the VHF radio. I already have too many cables in the guard legs. Some have been abandoned from previous instruments and a radio. My intention is to clean them out, but I wasn't able to release the guard. The allen screws that secure the guard legs are frozen. I've tried pb blaster and various tricks to release. The allen keys are thin and feel like they will break in my hand if I apply to much force. The last thing I need is to slice my hand open on one of those things. My next step is to use an impact driver with an allen head to either release it or break the head off. Then I'll drill it out if necessary. Either way, the guards are coming out this weekend one way or t'other. Both ends of the guards have goop filling the holes and I can't pull cables with all that goop in there. It's getting cleaned out tomorrow, I swear. Then we'll see where I'm at.

But yes, if the instruments don't give me satisfaction with the ducers cabled directly to the instruments, I'll be pulling the cables out of the pod and installing an iTC-5 down below. I now have a 5-port backbone connector down below so I plan to run just the backbone cable up the guard leg to the backbone in the pod already. I'm not cutting any new holes in the floor or deck.

 

[HMT2]

Here is an old post that might help with the difference between Seatalkng and N2K

Seatalk NG Demystified

I recently installed a Raymarine EV100 Wheel pilot on my 1983 Hunter 31, the original ST 4000 finally gave up the ghost and went to "Iron Mike" heaven. I had an existing N2K network (also called "Devicenet" who knew?) with a wind instrument, Garmin 541s , Simrad RS35, and Ikommunicate on the N2K...

forums.sailboatowners.com

 

[Ward H]

@Scott T-Bird Sounds like a good plan to me.

 

[jssailem]

Scott, I have found the T-Handle Allen wrenches and an electric impact wrench with an Allen wrench bit can sometimes resolve a stubborn screw.

 

[Johann]

When I connected my ST60 wind and tridata to STng via the 5 way E22158 kit, and also connected my SPX-10 via STng, I selected the switch on the SPX-10 to power the STng. This ended up powering the ST60 instruments through the STng network, and so I didn’t use the dedicated instrument switch for the ST60s. Well I just decided I wanted to have my Garmin chartplotter display wind and depth at anchor without the autopilot on. So I turned the SPX-10 STng power switch off, and now when I turn on the ST60 instrument switch, it powers the STng network and I have the data on the Garmin. Now I just need an reasonably priced N2K heading sensor. FWIW.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Scott, I have found the T-Handle Allen wrenches and an electric impact wrench with an Allen wrench bit can sometimes resolve a stubborn screw.

What a FUBAR! I used an impact driver and 1/8" Allen bit and still couldn't free the guard from the pedestal top plate. When the bit started to strip the socket head on one side, I decided it was time to get the drill out. Close to an hour later, I had those suckers drilled out and a few newly dull drill bits! My goal was to simply slide the guard high enough, while leaving the top of the pedestal and compass in place, to clean out the sealant that was blocking the cable runs at the 2 feet (of the guard). Little did I know how futile that goal would turn out to be!

I removed my 2 instrument pods to get some leverage. That didn't help. So I finally decided to remove the binnacle head and unbolt the top plate. I probably could have done that at the very beginning and not bothered with those 2 devilish set screws! At this point, I was able to wiggle the guard around and with the help of a nylon-head persuader banging at the feet, I finally freed the feet and was able to lift the guard, feet and all, off the sealant-secured footing.

Finally, I achieved my initial goal! All along, what I wanted was to clean out the holes under the guards so I could pass the essential cables through the guard to my instruments and network backbone. I found that there were almost as many inactive transducer cables and power cables in there as the actively functioning cables! It was very satisfying to get those passageways cleaned out and now I have all the room I need for the cables I want to pass through the guard legs! What a job that was ... glad it's done now.

But what about my instruments? No love there, yet. I couldn't really focus on that aspect with all the time I was spending cleaning up the pedestal mess. I know that I have to change the BAUD rate on my CP to get the 0183 VHF communicating properly for AIS & GPS cross-talk. That has to be done in the CP software and I haven't learned that procedure yet. My instruments show up on the 2000 network but the CP isn't recognizing any data. I'm pretty certain that I need to connect the transducers into the network (the instruments don't network the data from the ducers, I think, when the ducers are connected to the instruments). I'll have to do this with an iTC-5. But now I'm rethinking this. My wind instrument is frazzled anyway. I think I'm just going to buy the B&G Triton package and leave my i50 speed and depth as independent instruments. My backbone connection for the instruments is below deck and I now have a backbone cable to the CP pod and a spur to new displays, so it will be an easy transition.

My autopilot only wants to operate in SeaTalk 1 even though I have it connected to STng backbone (spur cables from the SPX-5 and ST6002 both). I haven't figured this out either, but it works fine in ST, still, so not a problem yet.

Baby Steps ... I'll have it sorted by Spring!

The interesting development is that my guards now have holes poked through like swiss cheese from moving the pods around. I found that purchasing from Edson, I can get a kit that provides new pedestal guards, stainless steel top plate and ss guard feet for $554. I can also purchase a pedestal riser & compass weather shield (riser over the top plate) for another $300. For about $850 I can make my pedestal and guards look a whole lot better. Edson sure has elevated prices but I may just have to succumb after all this work and expense for improvements. The compass itself is in good shape, but I want to add a new LED lamp, since the original lamp is toast.