Neglected bottom - should I buy?

[Joe]

I can't believe there are no maintenance divers in that part of the world. Anyplace where boats are left in the water year round should be a business opportunity for a dive service. Look around for one in your area. Let the broker pay for it. At the very least, if you can't find one... buy a mask, snorkel and some fins and inspect it yourself.

 

[berner73]

Assume the bottom is perfect for a moment. Without pulling the boat for a power wash and inspection, you still won't know the condition of the keel/hull relative to any grounding, the hull to keel joint, the prop, the shaft, the strut, the cutlass bearing, thru hulls, etc. I wouldn't be comfortable with even the best intentioned diver to inspect these items under water.

 

[fstbttms]

Let me ask this, if it truly has been eight years without new bottom paint and just annual cleanings, what kind of hull problems or degradation would that cause? Marine grown that is annoying to clean is one thing, but increased risk of osmosis /core saturation / delamination / "pox" is much more structural.

As previously mentioned, anti fouling paint is not a barrier to water (in fact, it works by letting water penetrate its surface) and will not prevent blistering whether it is brand new or eight years old.

 

[druid]

My thoughts are similar to others here...

As for any damage from being in the water for 8 years, I can't see there being any problem. Osmosis is really not a big deal, and if the Owner can show it has been barrier-coated, I wouldn't give it any thought.

But not having an out-of-water survey is a BIG deal. There are so many things that a surveyor can see that would not be shown by underwater cameras (many still use a hammer to test hull integrity...), rudder, keel, thru-hulls... nope, wouldn't buy a boat without an out-of-the-water survey.

druid

 

[Stu Jackson]

Assume the bottom is perfect for a moment. Without pulling the boat for a power wash and inspection, you still won't know the condition of the keel/hull relative to any grounding, the hull to keel joint, the prop, the shaft, the strut, the cutlass bearing, thru hulls, etc. I wouldn't be comfortable with even the best intentioned diver to inspect these items under water.

But not having an out-of-water survey is a BIG deal. There are so many things that a surveyor can see that would not be shown by underwater cameras (many still use a hammer to test hull integrity...), rudder, keel, thru-hulls... nope, wouldn't buy a boat without an out-of-the-water survey.

We used to have our Catalina 22 in a freshwater lake during the summers for six months out of the year and trailered her back to SF Bay for winter sailing off the trailer (in the sea water for a max of four or five days at a time longest, usually just day sails). The scum buildup on the bottom when in the lake was quite a lot after the summer was over. There was an underwater bottom cleaning machine, like a car wash underwater, that the power-boaters used. We cranked up our keel and removed the rudder and used it! Worked great, but we never could get the green stain off the bottom.

As noted in the quotes above, the issue is less the bottom but rather all the rest of the running gear associated with a boat more complex than a Catalina 22 with an tiller/rudder and outboard engine.

Osmosis should be the last of your worries. I wouldn't buy unless you first checked all of these things out, and then took the boat out for a complete sea trial. Complete.

Can you find a trustworthy surveyor where the boat is located?

Whatever you decide, good luck.

 

[tgrady]

Your money. If it was me I would go for the crane for an hour assuming the surveyor knows what to look for. Up here I wouldn't want to go out very far without knowing the condition of the boat. There are to many other things to worry about. All good points above. Salt water is such a different animal than fresh apparently except the fact it is water.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Salt water is such a different animal than fresh apparently except the fact it is water.

Simple: all water corrodes, salt water corrodes absolutely.

 

[Apex]

..does a neglected bottom indicate potential for neglected "other" things...

 

[MrBill_FLL]

I'd assume the worst and negotiate the price accordingly, until seller proves otherwise.

 

[RichW9603]

Hey all,
Here's an update. Based on your responses, it became clear that the lack of bottom paint refresh doesn't affect blistering, that simply comes down to time in the water, quality of laminate construction and if there is a barrier coat. On the lake where the boat is, there are no haulout facilities, so basically no one has their boat hauled out of the water for any kind of below-waterline maintenance. I went ahead with the survey and although the surveyor couldn't examine the underside, he did reach under water and feel along the hull as best he could, and noticed 1) it was very dirty and 2) there definitely were blisters. However, there were some other things wrong with the boat too above the waterline - diesel was sorely in need of maintenance, there were some leaks (or had been), a large portion of the cabin topside surface was "wet" (water-soaked), and a few other things that indicated that someone did the "fun" part of owning a boat but didn't do much on the hard part (maintenance). So I'm either going to ask for a large price reduction or walk away, not even sure a large price reduction would compensate for what kind of problems the bottom might have given the condition of the top. This is a really good example of why one just about must hire a surveyor - one can clean up the inside of a boat well enough to make internet pictures look great, but it's things like picking up bilge covers and looking inside where the true problems manifest where you won't see online, and the owner/broker sure isn't going to tell you voluntarily.

I fully expect the broker, as nice as he is, to dispute the results of the survey. Sellers seem to like to tell buyers that "most surveyors don't know what they're doing." Yet if the surveyor didn't find anything wrong with the boat, I doubt the owners would tell you in that case the surveyor didn't know what they were doing.

Anyway. I don't expect them to come off as much as I need to handle the required repairs plus other general unknowns given the now-known-knowns, so this is probably the end of this lead. Sad, Hunter 33.5's in the 89-90 year are rare, especially ones within 1,000 miles of where I live, but bad idea to pick up one which seems like it may have been rode hard and put away wet.

Thanks everyone for the great input, and I hope this thread helps others.
'Dubs

 

[shemandr]

I'm aware of the build up of expectations and then the disappointment of deflation of those expectations. You have to let your brain rule and not your heart. This or any boat will become your problem once you sign. And they cost money to store, and worse yet, cost money to get rid of. So be smart when you buy. If the boat needs anything, the units are $1,000 not $100.

 

[Jackdaw]

Sellers of well maintaied boats will WELCOME a survey. It will validate that they are asking a fair price. Only owners who have neglected their boats will denigrate the services of surveyor.

Boat prices of late 80s cruisers are all over the map. It's is not odd to see a 100% variance in the prices of similar boats on yachtworld. A LOT of this will come down to deferred (really: ignored) maintenance. The items listed on your survey could drop the value of the boat by 1/2. Really that's where it should have been priced. I'd walk. I always suggest that people but the BEST example of the boat they want, not the worst.

I could never do this deferred maintenance thing. I look at something needing replacing on my boats as an opportunity to UPGRADE, not ingore. It's probably why I'm sure the 260 is now worth more than I paid for it.

Most people probably do it because they buy 'the most boat they can afford', not understanding that that statement is NOT about purchase, price, but about annual maintenance cost.

A $22k 33-footer from the 80s is probably the most expensive (long term) boat you could buy right now.

 

[centerline]

Sellers of well maintaied boats will WELCOME a survey. It will validate that they are asking a fair price. Only owners who have neglected their boats will denigrate the services of surveyor.

I could never do this deferred maintenance thing. I look at something needing replacing on my boats as an opportunity to UPGRADE, not ingore. It's probably why I'm sure the 260 is now worth more than I paid for it.

Most people probably do it because they buy 'the most boat they can afford', not understanding that that statement is NOT about purchase, price, but about annual maintenance cost.

"I could never do this deferred maintenance thing. I look at something needing replacing on my boats as an opportunity to UPGRADE, not ignore."

I agree.... only those who have no real love for their boat would ever let the maintenance go on it.
any boat that has more than one system on it to maintain, is a project. and the bigger the boat or the more systems it has, the bigger the project is.... its a never ending project for as long as you own the boat. and for those that want to defer the project/maintenance costs, the longer you put them off, the more expensive they become, and the less value the boat has.

I really enjoy working on my boats and upgrading.... my wife says, If only I could be content to set in front of the tv all the time and never have a project to work on, or never have a need to go somewhere, we could have money in the bank and be RICH!... but that isnt going to happen because we have three boats that need lovin'....

 

[zeehag]

what is it 1 or 2 dollars per foot to clean in water, then someone can see what is going on. is so easy. if you are truly concerned, dive it yourself to see what someone else is gonna tell you. is better first hand anyway.

 

[fstbttms]

I can't believe there are no maintenance divers in that part of the world. Anyplace where boats are left in the water year round should be a business opportunity for a dive service.

There is little need for in-water hull cleaning in a freshwater environment. In a lake so small that there are no haulout facilities (meaning small boat population), it does not surprise me that there are no dive services. There are very few even in extremely large bodies of freshwater with many hundreds or thousands of boats.

 

[Joe]

There is little need for in-water hull cleaning in a freshwater environment. In a lake so small that there are no haulout facilities (meaning small boat population), it does not surprise me that there are no dive services. There are very few even in extremely large bodies of freshwater with many hundreds or thousands of boats.

In the Dallas/Ft Worth area there are a number of large lakes with big sailing communities. There are also many dive shops in the area that might provide resources for independent divers. I agree that a professional maintenance company may not be geared to private yacht maintenance rather than larger commercial jobs... so your comment makes sense. But, with all due respect, it ain't rocket science to mask and snorkel a few feet underwater. My pool is deeper than the draft on most boats.

 

[fstbttms]

But, with all due respect, it ain't rocket science to mask and snorkel a few feet underwater. My pool is deeper than the draft on most boats.

Yes, but that's not the point. You remarked that it was unlikely that there were no professional hull cleaners in the OP's sailing grounds. Further, until you've tried cleaning any boat (much less one that has lousy paint and is badly fouled) while simply holding your breath, you don't know what real fun is. Not to mention the risk of Shallow Water Blackout.

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...breath-hold-diving.178505/page-2#post-1288074

 

[RichW9603]

Apparently there is a company that services the lake where the boat was, many of the owners use that company to clean the hulls. In my case the owner only did it once a year, and according to the surveyor, that lack of frequency showed. I was more concerned with the blisters, and even though the boat wasn't out of the water, the surveyor reached down and felt around below the waterline and there were enough blisters there to cause concern. Also, I live 400 miles away from where the boat is, if I had lived locally I would have donned by snorkeling gear from my diving days with wetsuit and gone wet to check out everything myself. So that is why I was relying so much on input about likely status of the hull, because I couldn't check it myself, and neither really could a surveyor.