Need to Make Some Decisions...

[GorillaToast]

...before I go much further in the refit of my C22.

Certain things must be done, like re-bedding all the deck hardware and re-caulking the rub rail, to make the boat dry again. These projects don't involve much cash outlay, just a lot of my time, which is fine - it beats watching TV in the winter.

But other upgrades I'd like to do for myself will mean considerable cash investments - and that's ther key word here - will they really be investments? Since I plan to sell the boat in a couple of years and move up to a 26-27 footer, would the "investment" make the boat worth anymore?

A new switch panel, and complete re-wire is a must. But would adding an inverter and AC panel increase its value? I plan to sleep on the boat most of next summer and use my microwave and coffee maker.

New sails - I can hold off for 2 more seasons if I get them cleaned and reresined, but would a full suite of new sails increase the boats worth by $1000? I've got hank-on jibs right now, but would a roller furling unit and new 150 genoa add another $1000 value to the boat?

On my small lake, a depth meter is all the electronics I need, but I've got two 2" holes in the hull where the non-working transducers were, and the plastic fittings broke when I took them out to re-bed them, so should I put $700 out for 2 new transducers and a display, or just glass over the holes?

I paid $2k for her, and I'd like to get at least a grand more out of her if I do the upgrades, but with this economy and boat market...

I guess the biggest question is, do I do nice things for me; that will make my sailing more enjoyable, and eat the cost,

or just get her watertight, and save the $$ for the next boat?

Deferring to you folks greater experience.

Thanks for any opinions.
Bill

 

[Stu Jackson]

Bill, a boat is NEVER an "investment" and you will not get back what you put into it. That's a basic.

Another basic is to do with the boat what YOU need and want for enjoyable sailing.

Transducers: If you don't need 'em, don't do 'em. Close up the holes. We sailed our C22 for years without a depth sounder. The enxt owner can do what he likes.

Roller furling: Two approaches: One, you sail more with it. Two, it's an expense that will get you nothing out of it. We sailed our C22 and a C25 for over 15 years without anything but a jib downhaul. OTOH, I wouldn't be without it on our C34. If you like it and can afford it (usually a CDI for a C22) then go for it.

Inverter: You don't need an AC panel for that. Buy one that connects to your DC system with receptacles right on it. Simpler. BUT, and a big BUT, you need a healthy sized house bank to run a microwave. That in itself might be considered overkill for a C22 where a small unpressurized Origo alcohol stove would do as well. You'll also have to do an energy budget and deal with recharging the house bank, too.

I guess the biggest question is, do I do nice things for me; that will make my sailing more enjoyable, and eat the cost, or just get her watertight, and save the $$ for the next boat?

We had the same issues with our C22 and C25. We used it for sails, an autopilot (which you didn't mention and is a GREAT tool), and the Origo stove. Then sailed the heck out of them and sold them for good prices.

Sounds a lot like: Your boat, your wallet, your choice.

 

[Merlin Clark]

Bill,
I installed a fishfinder on my boat for use as a depth finder and it works great. Plus it keeps me and the younger crew entertained watching the fishes.
These can be had for under $100, more for the thru hull transducer.

 

[Eman]

I agree with Stu and learned the hard way with my old girlfriend, I mean, wooden sailboat; you will never get back what you put in. I also have a C22 and it's interesting as I too am rebedding everything, new wiring, lights, panel, etc. I too plan to some day upgrade but 3 yrs? 5-7 yrs? If/when it happens and I sell my C22 I know that it's been a complete overhaul. And in the meantime, I'm sailing a much more up to date, seaworthy vessel that I'll be happy with and proud of... do it for you and no one else...

 

[GorillaToast]

Stu,
I realize no boat is ever a recoverable investment, the way houses used to be. But I feel I should be able to get a little more than I paid for it based on current advertised prices for 22s. (yes, I know, they won't get the asking price). I think the PO knew there were water issues, and just wanted to get rid of it quickly.

Btw, I'll rethink the microwave. I can get by with a campstove in the cockpit, and a stern mounted BBQ. As long as I've got AC to run the coffee pot, re-charge the iPad and iPhone, and TV

I agree with Stu and learned the hard way with my old girlfriend, I mean, wooden sailboat; you will never get back what you put in. I also have a C22 and it's interesting as I too am rebedding everything, new wiring, lights, panel, etc. I too plan to some day upgrade but 3 yrs? 5-7 yrs? If/when it happens and I sell my C22 I know that it's been a complete overhaul. And in the meantime, I'm sailing a much more up to date, seaworthy vessel that I'll be happy with and proud of... do it for you and no one else...

That's the rub. Every $500 I spend to make this boat nicer for me now, is $500 less that can go into the boat I plan to live on, and cruise with.

thanks.
Bill

 

[Ken]

something to think about

Only upgrade the items you can move to your next boat, keep everything and when you get ready to sell the boat sell those items separately ie furler, head sail etc.

Of course you will have to write off the wiring upgrade...
But you can buy from the manufacturer and save some $$$ Pacer is one of three marine wiring companies in the US that makes tinned marine wiring.

 

[Holo Kai]

Hi Bill,

I wrestle with these same questions frequently. My Montego was in similar shape when i got her and I've done a lot of work to her now. I've definitely put money in that I won't get back and like you, i plan to upgrade to a 28-30ft live-aboard in the next 3-5yrs. Something that helps me prioritize my projects that i may have gotten from this site or a book is to separate projects into one of three categories. The first is it needs to be done to keep/make the boat seaworthy & safe, like rebedding hardware so it's dry (I highly recommend the butyl tape that mainsail sells for rebedding, after a full year of leaking stay chainplates that I rebedded multiple times with other products, they are finally dry after using butyl) or getting new chainplates made and replacing the standing rigging. I tend to go a little heavy duty in this category, meaning I do the work to the standard you would need for a blue water cruiser even though she's only a trailer sailer. By doing this i get a little extra piece of mind, which can't be underestimated, as well as learning techniques that will help me on my next, larger boat.

The second category are projects that are structural or hardware that isn't necessary but nice to have, such as upgrading blocks. I added jib lead tacks/cars, $300 on an "unnecessary" project but I sail better and get to better learn about sail trim. Not sure if you trailer, but my trailer was a complete mess and i've spent over $500 making it safe. That money paid off last a few weeks ago when I trailered her down to Biscayne Bay for a 4 day cruise!

The third category are projects that have little value to anyone but me and make me proud of my boat. This would be things like stripping all the teak and re-varnishing. I built several wooden shelves for the cabin that give me extra space when I spend a few days on it as well as make the boat look great.

Luckily, I've taken care of all but one or two cat 1 projects and get to focus on cat 2 & 3 projects these days. But what has worked for me is to balance my projects by slipping in some cat 2 & 3 projects with the cat 1 projects to keep me excited. I get bored easily! After working on nothing but the trailer for a few weeks, I started making the wooden shelves and varnishing. Laying a coat of varnish makes me smile and only takes 30min. My motivation was renewed and i was back at it working on the boring old trailer!

While I agree with Stu, that there are no financial investments on a boat, I consider most of this money an investment in my education. When i upgrade to a bigger boat, it will most likely need alot of these similar repairs. Doing all this work on this boat has taught me how to work with fiberglass, wood, varnish, etc. as well as helping me understand how to get the most from my boat. And doing this work on a smaller boat is cheaper in materials, allowing me to experiment. Also, mistakes aren't as costly! I only paid $2500 and have probably put that or more into her. I'll be happy to get $3500 - $4k when i eventually sell, all the extra money spent is considered tuition for an education in topics that will help me throughout my sailing career and may actually save me or my vessel when I'm cruising through tropical islands

Much thanks to Mainsail, Stu and the other captains! The articles you guys write and answers you give have helped me through ALL of my projects!!

Mike

 

[GorillaToast]

Hi Mike.

Thanks to you and everyone else that has weighed in.

I've already put my to-do list in a catagorized spreadsheet based on structural needs, features that would make it more comfortable, and finish items to make her look better.

My priorities are:

1. keeping the boat dry, safety (re-bedding, new wiring, keel maintenence)
2. better sailing characteristics (sails, inboard genoa tracks, rope clutches,)
3. live-aboard needs (head repair, water storage, keeping food cool, cooking, power mgt., power for computer, coffee maker, phone, etc.)
4. refinishing things that could go another year at least (exterior teak, bottom paint)

Much of the running rigging was already replaced during this past season (new sheets, mainsheet blocks, boom vang blocks, boom kicker, mast gates, single line reefing, 4:1 outhaul, jib downhaul,) plus, handmade sailcovers, and companionway cover.

I have one major expense coming up - I must have a new outboard. My 1997 Honda has failed at critical times, so often, I can't trust it anymore. Everytime I think there's nothing left to break/replace, something new happens that puts me in danger. (It's a sad tale of woe!) I now have no trust in older, used motors (why would someone sell it if it "works great!"?) So, that's gonna be $1500 - $2000.

But that, as Stu suggests, it will be something that goes with me to my next boat, probably as power for a RIB.

What I'm wondering about is things like new electronics, like a Raymarine ST60 system. Is that something that would be easily transferrable to the next boat?

Roller furling, unless it would absolutely make the boat more marketable, is not something I particularly want or need at $700 for the furler, plus the cost of a new furling genoa. I can get a storm jib for about $250 and be fine.

Decisions...decisions....

 

[Holo Kai]

Yikes! I feel for you on the outboard. Like you said, at least you can bring that with you.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to transfer a Raymarine ST60, but if i spent the money i would do what ever i needed to do! What do you think the chances are that the next bigger boat will already have a similar system? Guess it depends on how much of a fixer upper you anticipate getting. Something to consider though. A system like this is something i will be expecting my next boat to already have.

I was pretty interested in roller furling when i first got my boat until i read some negative posts about them. Mainly that using the sail at anything less than completely unfurled is a inefficient sail. It also seems like a lot of extra hassle and extra things to break. I ended up getting a $10 block, attaching it to the jib/genoa tack with a caribener and running 3/16" line from the top hank, through the block back to the mast as a downhaul. It works great and i can drop the jib from the cockpit. For me it serves the same function the furler would have, but for only $20. My local sail loft said a furling sail would be expensive as well, so you might want to get some quotes to help with your decision. Also, I only had a genoa and wanted a jib, i found a good hank on jib for $75 on craigslist. The furler might make your boat more marketable, but I would expect to eat the cost on it.

Something to consider in the electronics department, it looks like you are racking up a large electrical budget. I do all my cooking and coffee with propane. I only have a 55ah deep cycle (currently shopping for a set of bigger deep cycle's) and i have to limit my stereo use to make it last as it's my biggest drain. I also have a trickle charger solar panel, but it doesn't offset my use. I was able to last 6 full days on the deep cycle and an old car battery by being frugal and using the solar panel, but running the batteries that low regularaly will kill them. This is something I'm actually working on right now so i can spend a solid 14 days onboard and hopefully only go ashore to charge once.

You might factor the amp-hours of your current batteries or if you are purchasing new ones, along with solar to offset some use, to help make some of these decisions about electronics. If i can do something without electricity, i go that route, even if it's a mechanical crank! You mention an inverter and AC panel, so maybe you're planning a fair amount of time at dock which would factor in. Onshore or on the boat I lean towards simple! You said "Everytime I think there's nothing left to break/replace, something new happens that puts me in danger", this especially applies to electronics in the salt air. Before buying something or when i'm looking into an upgrade, i consider how likely it is to break and how often as well as it's required maintenance. Seems like i read a lot of posts by people who spend more time repairing things that they could probably do without than actually sailing.

Keep us posted, I'm interested to see how you set things up. I'm going to work on writing shorter posts!

Mike

 

[DavoArts]

I just sold my Catalina 22, (sad day, but yes, I moved up). I also bought mine for $2000, it had almost new sails, but that was about it. The outboard was a joke (I sold it to a guy who turned it into a mailbox, rather fitting for all it was worth). I upgraded everything, chainplates, mast step, spreader brackets, bow eye, new vents, newer outboard, sanded and barrier coated the hull myself, paid for a antifouling coat, new hardware and haylards to run aft, blah blah blah....all in all, I probably put another $2000 into it (most likely a lot more but I refuse to admit it).

You know what I ended up selling it for? $2500.

Everyone told me that was way too cheap, and maybe it was, but I wanted to move it fast so I could get the bigger boat. I maybe could have sold it for $3500, but not right now, it being winter and the lake so low still.

However, I did get an even better deal on my new boat than the guy got who bought mine...so in that, I can justify all of the work I put into the boat, plus, it will be appearing in the 22 nationals next year I hear, from the buyer's plans...

 

[txtowman]

WOW I am in the same situation I am fixing to buy a 30 footer. and don't want to waste any money on my 22 cause I'll never recoup the expenditures.
Only difference is I want to trade now.
No water in the lakes here so I am taking mine to houston to use while I wait to sell and trade up.

Good luck

 

[Sea22]

I hate to say, but I am too not far behind you guys. I'm ready to move up to a 27-30 on the way to a 34, which is my long term target.

But that is not likely to happen for anther few years, so how much do I spend in the mean time making my 22 better?

I don't have too much to add here, but I will spend what I need to make my 22 sail better. On my list:

Better Adjustable Back Stay
Inboard Jenoa tracks
Real Roller Furler(I have a home made PVC model)
New Sails

I know I won't get anything back from the investment, and am in total agreement with Mike. I look at this as practice and training for when I get the 27-30.

 

[littlescoop]

The more you do to improve your Cat22 the more and better sailor you become..You are what you do and for me I live to sail and breath the wind my boat loves...sick I know but so true

 

[philwsailz]

Stu,
I realize no boat is ever a recoverable investment, the way houses used to be. But I feel I should be able to get a little more than I paid for it based on current advertised prices for 22s. (yes, I know, they won't get the asking price). I think the PO knew there were water issues, and just wanted to get rid of it quickly.

Btw, I'll rethink the microwave. I can get by with a campstove in the cockpit, and a stern mounted BBQ. As long as I've got AC to run the coffee pot, re-charge the iPad and iPhone, and TV



That's the rub. Every $500 I spend to make this boat nicer for me now, is $500 less that can go into the boat I plan to live on, and cruise with.

thanks.
Bill

Bill-

Regarding your electronics load, consider this. An AC inverter is inherently inefficient, (power in does not equal power out) and most of your needs can be accomodated as there are 12-volt versions available, or there are other options. Avoid the route of going to an inverter, as the inefficiency is prohibitive.

* A porcelain coffee percolator makes a darned good cup of joe on the camp stove.

* Your iPod, iPhone or iPad can be charged from 12-volts, either through entertainment electronics such as made for iPhone head units, or similar devices. My company makes an amplified iPod controller that basically turns your apple device into your stereo, complete with charging. You can also buy 12-volt chargers at your normal phone nad MP3 player accessories store.

* 12-volt TV and DVD combos are very affordable and reliable these days. I can point you to a few brands if you like. Done right you can even connect them to your stereo for a semi-surround-sound experience.

* Solar panels will provide most if not all of the juice for weekend use, provided you are just a weekend sailor like myself, but have the solar panels out and charging all week.

I am on my third refit/refurb of three different boats I have owned over the years, and each time the system becomes a little more elaborate. You can see my latest monster, (19" TV/DVD combo, surround sound with subwoofer, LED color-changing mood lighting, pressurized water system with electric flush toilet) here:

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=123450


There are steps I am taking to divert power usage, (LED interior lights is one example) from critical systems to luxury systems and I added a dual bank battery system that will be charged with two solar panels when it is all said and done. While my craziness is extravagant likely to the point of stupidity, I want ot point out that I was careful to select items that were all 12 volts to prevent the need for an inverter.


Also note most of the things I have done with this latest boat can be taken out... For use in a larger boat.

Holler if you hav questions, happy to guide you to a few places whereI have had good luck sourcing 12-volt gear.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[jfrench]

<<There are steps I am taking to divert power usage...from critical systems to luxury systems...>>

Now does that line capture the essence of why we sail, or what?