I went last night (Wednesday) to the local Power Squadron meeting. The program was a local but well known surveyor who spoke about what a surveyor does when you hire him to look at a boat. The information was good and helpful to many of the people at the meeting. However, toward the end of the meeting, someone asked him, "since you survey many boats, are their some that are betten than others?" His response was, "Well, I would not buy a Hunter." I asked why and he responded, "...that they are poorly made." It is interesting the way I felt. It was like someone had hit me in the stomach. I did not respond to him and am still feeling upset. I feel the Hunter's are well made, better than most in many respects. I plan to write this person a letter saying that I think he is un-ethical as he ought to have said, these are the things I do not like to see in a boat and leave the brand names out of it. He did comment that he liked Catalinas and Bayliners. I suspect when he sees my letter, he'll just circle file it. But I am concerned about the number of people who might believe him. Somedays I think I should have stayed on the boat.
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2nd Hunter and still thoroughly pleased.
Les, I agree that this guy's ethics were running low. I have had several boats in the last 25 years. My current H34 is the second Hunter. After having owned a 28.5 for 7 years, I actually looked at several other makes and decidededly went hunting for a Hunter (pun intended to boost your morale). I agree that my 34 is not a Hinckley, or a Swan, but it provides me with a lot of happiness. At a price I could afford. BTW, when I look at those expensive boats in the back of all those magazines, most of them say they have been up-graded or retrofitted after only a few years. Nothing is indestructable, and if well maintained, your Hunter should keep you afloat for many happy years. When you write that guy, ask him if he has a boat ? The largest share of surveyors do not ! I would ask the Commanding officer of your Squadron to write this guy a letter. It would carry more weight and might even shut him up in the future. On second thought, don't waste any more time with it. Just enjoy your boat. Have a nice season while the joker (also the name of a very smelly boat part !) sweats it out crawling all over boats with his little mallet while you're enjoying yet another beautiful day on your Hunter.
Les, I agree that this guy's ethics were running low. I have had several boats in the last 25 years. My current H34 is the second Hunter. After having owned a 28.5 for 7 years, I actually looked at several other makes and decidededly went hunting for a Hunter (pun intended to boost your morale). I agree that my 34 is not a Hinckley, or a Swan, but it provides me with a lot of happiness. At a price I could afford. BTW, when I look at those expensive boats in the back of all those magazines, most of them say they have been up-graded or retrofitted after only a few years. Nothing is indestructable, and if well maintained, your Hunter should keep you afloat for many happy years. When you write that guy, ask him if he has a boat ? The largest share of surveyors do not ! I would ask the Commanding officer of your Squadron to write this guy a letter. It would carry more weight and might even shut him up in the future. On second thought, don't waste any more time with it. Just enjoy your boat. Have a nice season while the joker (also the name of a very smelly boat part !) sweats it out crawling all over boats with his little mallet while you're enjoying yet another beautiful day on your Hunter.
VERY unprofessional surveyor!
It's not a surveyor's job to pass judgment on any boat "brand." IMO, his conduct is nothing shot of disgraceful...and definitelyHIGHLY unproffensional! A surveyor's own personal biases about any particular make of boat have no place in his work. It's not a surveyor's job to tell anyone whether his choice of boat is a good choice or a bad one...His/her ONLY job is only to find specifi problems that affect the fair market value of THAT particular boat and/or any that can affect the safety of its crew and passengers, and any other problems (i.e. a toilet that won't flush) that can cost the new owner money and should be either corrected by the seller or the price renegotiated downward to cover them. Expressing his personal "brand" bias was HIGHLY unprofessional. I hope you DO write him a letter, telling him this. And I hope you'll copy everyone who was at the meeting. We all know that Hunters aren't Hinckleys or Swans...neither are Catalinas, Cals, Pearsons, O'Days, Beneteaus, and a dozen other boats I can think of. But that doesn't make any of a bad choice...any more than a Ford is a "bad" choice compared to a Rolls Royce.
It's not a surveyor's job to pass judgment on any boat "brand." IMO, his conduct is nothing shot of disgraceful...and definitelyHIGHLY unproffensional! A surveyor's own personal biases about any particular make of boat have no place in his work. It's not a surveyor's job to tell anyone whether his choice of boat is a good choice or a bad one...His/her ONLY job is only to find specifi problems that affect the fair market value of THAT particular boat and/or any that can affect the safety of its crew and passengers, and any other problems (i.e. a toilet that won't flush) that can cost the new owner money and should be either corrected by the seller or the price renegotiated downward to cover them. Expressing his personal "brand" bias was HIGHLY unprofessional. I hope you DO write him a letter, telling him this. And I hope you'll copy everyone who was at the meeting. We all know that Hunters aren't Hinckleys or Swans...neither are Catalinas, Cals, Pearsons, O'Days, Beneteaus, and a dozen other boats I can think of. But that doesn't make any of a bad choice...any more than a Ford is a "bad" choice compared to a Rolls Royce.
Ignorant or just dumb?
I am a college professor and sometimes I feel sick when one of my students answers a question before the class and the response is less than optimum. I think that is what you are feeling. You do not enjoy seeing others display poor judgment in front of a group. And you are correct, it was poor judgment. There were numerous other ways for him to have made his point. On the lighter side, this guy may be a "locally well known surveyor," but if he likes Bayliners and does not like Hunters he probably has some other basic character flaws also. We know we didn't buy Island Packets. They are great boats but I cannot afford one. On the other hand, I own my Hunter and I am not part of the "what rate did you get" discussion that is currently under way. I like that. I would rather own my Hunter than service a mortgage on an Island Packet. As we all know, the world is full of A-- H---s. You are, unfortunately, correct about the value of your potential letter. If it lets you vent, then write it, but do not write it and then get upset because you do not get a response. Better to have a drink (if you drink) or a grape Nehi (can you get them out there?) and realize that there are more people in the world who would love to spend a few hours on your boat than there are snobs (we could drop the "n" if you talk dirty as I do) who would criticize our Hunters. Get your chin up.
I am a college professor and sometimes I feel sick when one of my students answers a question before the class and the response is less than optimum. I think that is what you are feeling. You do not enjoy seeing others display poor judgment in front of a group. And you are correct, it was poor judgment. There were numerous other ways for him to have made his point. On the lighter side, this guy may be a "locally well known surveyor," but if he likes Bayliners and does not like Hunters he probably has some other basic character flaws also. We know we didn't buy Island Packets. They are great boats but I cannot afford one. On the other hand, I own my Hunter and I am not part of the "what rate did you get" discussion that is currently under way. I like that. I would rather own my Hunter than service a mortgage on an Island Packet. As we all know, the world is full of A-- H---s. You are, unfortunately, correct about the value of your potential letter. If it lets you vent, then write it, but do not write it and then get upset because you do not get a response. Better to have a drink (if you drink) or a grape Nehi (can you get them out there?) and realize that there are more people in the world who would love to spend a few hours on your boat than there are snobs (we could drop the "n" if you talk dirty as I do) who would criticize our Hunters. Get your chin up.
You're right
I would send him a letter. As a speaker at the meeting he was acting as an opinion leader and should not have said what he did about a specific brand. It's kind of funny that a professional wouldn't understand that Hunters are still in the water after many many years and still going strong. I feel that Hunters are like a Ford or Chevy. Meaning that they are affordable. I would not be sailing now if my only opton was spending a half million dollars for boat. When my Hunter 40 was surveyed by a certified surveyor with over 20 years experience he told me that he felt that the hunter was a good boat. He gave me the feeling that I had made a good choice. He did his job.
I would send him a letter. As a speaker at the meeting he was acting as an opinion leader and should not have said what he did about a specific brand. It's kind of funny that a professional wouldn't understand that Hunters are still in the water after many many years and still going strong. I feel that Hunters are like a Ford or Chevy. Meaning that they are affordable. I would not be sailing now if my only opton was spending a half million dollars for boat. When my Hunter 40 was surveyed by a certified surveyor with over 20 years experience he told me that he felt that the hunter was a good boat. He gave me the feeling that I had made a good choice. He did his job.
emotional rescue <g>
The fact the he stated a Bayliner was a good boat should have given you a clue, ,it is the snobbery thing, my ford is paid for, , chin up and all of that, if u let every simple ass get you down life will be a real bummer, Mike
The fact the he stated a Bayliner was a good boat should have given you a clue, ,it is the snobbery thing, my ford is paid for, , chin up and all of that, if u let every simple ass get you down life will be a real bummer, Mike
two letters
In addition to sending the "guest" speaker a letter,I would make also write to the local power squadron and copy them your letter to the "guest" letting your displeasure be known. (you might want to check his credentials befor hiring him to do a survey as most states have no legal standard to become a surveyor) At the very least he used poor judgement to have made such a broad statement.
In addition to sending the "guest" speaker a letter,I would make also write to the local power squadron and copy them your letter to the "guest" letting your displeasure be known. (you might want to check his credentials befor hiring him to do a survey as most states have no legal standard to become a surveyor) At the very least he used poor judgement to have made such a broad statement.
Many thanks to all of you who responded
I'm feeling much better and am on top of things once more. Your responses helped a great deal--even made me laugh at the situation. I e-mailed my dealer in Seattle and he may hire this surveyor to do a new boat survey and then talk to him afterwards. Sounds like a positive approach to the problem. I'm drafting a letter to the surveyor expressing regrets, etc. with a copy to the Power Squadron Commander and the Seattle dealer. Then I shall commence to forget about it. I still have one of the best and most beautiful boats that I would take anywheres in the world. Thanks again. And by the way, Peggy, thank you for all the excellent advice on heads and other marine problems. You've been a wealth of good information.
I'm feeling much better and am on top of things once more. Your responses helped a great deal--even made me laugh at the situation. I e-mailed my dealer in Seattle and he may hire this surveyor to do a new boat survey and then talk to him afterwards. Sounds like a positive approach to the problem. I'm drafting a letter to the surveyor expressing regrets, etc. with a copy to the Power Squadron Commander and the Seattle dealer. Then I shall commence to forget about it. I still have one of the best and most beautiful boats that I would take anywheres in the world. Thanks again. And by the way, Peggy, thank you for all the excellent advice on heads and other marine problems. You've been a wealth of good information.
Are some surveyors better than others?
I guess you could say that among surveyors you found one that was of real Bayliner quality. David H-27 Renegade
I guess you could say that among surveyors you found one that was of real Bayliner quality. David H-27 Renegade
Les, Great response.
Intelligence, class and style are not universally equal traits in all people. Your response, and to then leave this matter behind is great. While he will be a prisoner to his biases and opinions, you will be sailing on the fair winds, in a damn good boat. Now who has the best outlook? Ray
Intelligence, class and style are not universally equal traits in all people. Your response, and to then leave this matter behind is great. While he will be a prisoner to his biases and opinions, you will be sailing on the fair winds, in a damn good boat. Now who has the best outlook? Ray
Les, did you negelect to mention something?
Les: Did you negelect to mention who this dofus is or were you just trying to be a little more professional than this guy. I think that publishing his name for all of the boat owners in your area would be a honorable thing to do. You never know when you hook up with a guy like this and get a satisfactory survey from one like him on a Catalina, Bayliner or some other boat (because he like them) and then get an unsatisfactory survey on a Hunter or the other boats because he does NOT like them. *Professionals* like him deserved to driven out of Dodge.
Les: Did you negelect to mention who this dofus is or were you just trying to be a little more professional than this guy. I think that publishing his name for all of the boat owners in your area would be a honorable thing to do. You never know when you hook up with a guy like this and get a satisfactory survey from one like him on a Catalina, Bayliner or some other boat (because he like them) and then get an unsatisfactory survey on a Hunter or the other boats because he does NOT like them. *Professionals* like him deserved to driven out of Dodge.
Time Tells...
Les, when I bought my Hunter in 1982, people in California were VERY snooty about them....and I felt like you did..until I realized that I was usually out sailing while they were fixing things....on some pretty prestigious boats, by the way. Now, nineteen years later (living aboard for fifteen and doing a good bit of cruising), I still have my Hunter and she is still going strong. I wonder about those other guys who were fixing their boats...maybe they have Hunters, now. By the way, over the years she has been surveyed on five different occasions. All five surveyors (and they were all known to be tough) liked the boat. Cheers!
Les, when I bought my Hunter in 1982, people in California were VERY snooty about them....and I felt like you did..until I realized that I was usually out sailing while they were fixing things....on some pretty prestigious boats, by the way. Now, nineteen years later (living aboard for fifteen and doing a good bit of cruising), I still have my Hunter and she is still going strong. I wonder about those other guys who were fixing their boats...maybe they have Hunters, now. By the way, over the years she has been surveyed on five different occasions. All five surveyors (and they were all known to be tough) liked the boat. Cheers!
From a slightly different perspective:
yes, I completely agree with Peggy and several other responders that his behavior was highly unprofessional and I do feel sorry for him that he made such a fool of himself in front of an audience of experienced sailors. However, it may be useful to try and understand why he would think the way he does. He is certainly not the only surveyor with a very poor opinion of Hunters. There is even one guy (Klopman, or some other Dutch name) who has posted his complaints abour Hunters on his website, if I remember well. IMHO the straightforward explanation goes as follows: (1) although a very well maintained Hunter may well be a better boat (in the eyes of a surveyor) than a very poorly maintained Hinkley, Morris, Oyster or Swan of the same age, a very poorly maintained Hunter is likely to be seen as a much worse boat than the latter; (2) poorly maintained Hunters are likely to represent a disproportionately large fraction of the rock-bottom priced used boat market (just do the math and look around you in some of the big city marinas); (3) thus, the Joe Blows of the surveyor world are likely to see relatively large numbers of poorly maintained Hunters since they are the ones that get hired by prospective owners trying to get into as much boat as they can at rock-bottom prices (this also includes the surveyor's fee); and (4) therefore, a surveyor operating at the underbelly of the boat market is likely to see a disproportionately large percentage of poorly maintained Hunters. Hey, I'm feeling better already myself! Flying Dutchman
yes, I completely agree with Peggy and several other responders that his behavior was highly unprofessional and I do feel sorry for him that he made such a fool of himself in front of an audience of experienced sailors. However, it may be useful to try and understand why he would think the way he does. He is certainly not the only surveyor with a very poor opinion of Hunters. There is even one guy (Klopman, or some other Dutch name) who has posted his complaints abour Hunters on his website, if I remember well. IMHO the straightforward explanation goes as follows: (1) although a very well maintained Hunter may well be a better boat (in the eyes of a surveyor) than a very poorly maintained Hinkley, Morris, Oyster or Swan of the same age, a very poorly maintained Hunter is likely to be seen as a much worse boat than the latter; (2) poorly maintained Hunters are likely to represent a disproportionately large fraction of the rock-bottom priced used boat market (just do the math and look around you in some of the big city marinas); (3) thus, the Joe Blows of the surveyor world are likely to see relatively large numbers of poorly maintained Hunters since they are the ones that get hired by prospective owners trying to get into as much boat as they can at rock-bottom prices (this also includes the surveyor's fee); and (4) therefore, a surveyor operating at the underbelly of the boat market is likely to see a disproportionately large percentage of poorly maintained Hunters. Hey, I'm feeling better already myself! Flying Dutchman
Partisan Opinion
I find this thread rather humorous. The jist of the posts are, I own one , ergo I am one. I am now personaly insulted by this individual. The surveyor has his/her opinion and gave it freely. Does this make him incompetent since he disagrees with those who have an opposite opinion. Professional? Who knows, until another surveyor or two critiques the surveyor in question surveys. Perhaps he ran into several Hunters which had not been well maintained or had flaws. Anybody who follows this thread is acutely aware of the many faults of Hunters. The same could be said of other brands. Just remember the 260 sagas of last year or all of those gatevalves. Then people turn around and equate the surveyor as being akin to a Bayliner. My, what all of those Bayliner owners must be thinking about now. All of this negative opinion can not have had too much impact given the number of Hunters being produced. Please relax and go sailing.
I find this thread rather humorous. The jist of the posts are, I own one , ergo I am one. I am now personaly insulted by this individual. The surveyor has his/her opinion and gave it freely. Does this make him incompetent since he disagrees with those who have an opposite opinion. Professional? Who knows, until another surveyor or two critiques the surveyor in question surveys. Perhaps he ran into several Hunters which had not been well maintained or had flaws. Anybody who follows this thread is acutely aware of the many faults of Hunters. The same could be said of other brands. Just remember the 260 sagas of last year or all of those gatevalves. Then people turn around and equate the surveyor as being akin to a Bayliner. My, what all of those Bayliner owners must be thinking about now. All of this negative opinion can not have had too much impact given the number of Hunters being produced. Please relax and go sailing.
It's more than that, Bill
How humorous would you find it if you were selling your Hunter, and the buyer had hired this surveyor? How humorous would you find it if you were selling your Hunter and he'd said the same thing to a roomful of people that included at least one strong potential buyer who was about to make you an offer, but now won't, because of that surveyor's personal bias? Think about it...
How humorous would you find it if you were selling your Hunter, and the buyer had hired this surveyor? How humorous would you find it if you were selling your Hunter and he'd said the same thing to a roomful of people that included at least one strong potential buyer who was about to make you an offer, but now won't, because of that surveyor's personal bias? Think about it...
Boat Brands
I am a marine surveyor and I would never publicly take a shot at another surveyor but since I don't know the individual in question or their qualifications I will tell you that in this case I agree with Peggy. I would never comment on the desireability of a specific brand. I approach each boat as an individual product with good and bad features. I have surveyed many so called "high end" boats that the buyer has rejected after the inspection. Every manufacturer at one time or another has a problem vessel slip out the the door. When hiring a marine surveyor ask what associations he or she belongs to. Ask about their experience. Also, a broker should give you at least three names. As with any profession you are going to run across a couple of bad apples.
I am a marine surveyor and I would never publicly take a shot at another surveyor but since I don't know the individual in question or their qualifications I will tell you that in this case I agree with Peggy. I would never comment on the desireability of a specific brand. I approach each boat as an individual product with good and bad features. I have surveyed many so called "high end" boats that the buyer has rejected after the inspection. Every manufacturer at one time or another has a problem vessel slip out the the door. When hiring a marine surveyor ask what associations he or she belongs to. Ask about their experience. Also, a broker should give you at least three names. As with any profession you are going to run across a couple of bad apples.
Bayliners?
The fact that he likes Bayliners should have made you feel genuinely uplifted.........HELLO......HE'S AN IDIOT
The fact that he likes Bayliners should have made you feel genuinely uplifted.........HELLO......HE'S AN IDIOT
Don, Why is it ok to bash...
Bayliners, but not Hunters? What do you know about the construction of Bayliners that makes them inferior in quality to Hunters? Or the construction of Hunters that makes 'em superior in quality to Bayliners? I've never owned a Hunter or a Bayliner, but both are comparable value for the money, and very good value for the money. However, I can name several makes that are inferior in quality to both, but cost more...and at least one that not only is inferior to both AND costs more, but are--hands-down--THE butt-ugliest boats on the water. I'm not gonna name it..boat bashing has no place here, and serves no useful purpose--except possibly to make someone who's insecure about his own choice feel better about it at someone else's expense.
Bayliners, but not Hunters? What do you know about the construction of Bayliners that makes them inferior in quality to Hunters? Or the construction of Hunters that makes 'em superior in quality to Bayliners? I've never owned a Hunter or a Bayliner, but both are comparable value for the money, and very good value for the money. However, I can name several makes that are inferior in quality to both, but cost more...and at least one that not only is inferior to both AND costs more, but are--hands-down--THE butt-ugliest boats on the water. I'm not gonna name it..boat bashing has no place here, and serves no useful purpose--except possibly to make someone who's insecure about his own choice feel better about it at someone else's expense.
I usually ignore this topic area, but...
I have had some bad experiences with surveyors and I've come to the conclusion that if they were at all as knowledgeable as they claim to be and charge as much as they do to survey a boat, there would be no disclaimer at the end of the survey that says they are not responsible for anything they missed or that there are no assurances as to the integrity of the vessel or thier responsibility there-in. What a job! I wish I could tell my boss I'm not responsible if something goes wrong after I've just collected my paycheck. I know I'm generalizing here and that not all surveyors are bad, in fact most are very good if they have been at it for a long time, but a survey is just an opinion unless backed up by data and worthwhile tests and the opinion of the surveyor is just that if he's not willing to back it up with his reputation and assurance that you have a good vessel. With that said, I wouldn't put much stock in anyone who renders his opinion over fact and I certainly would'nt hire him for his services. Bottom line is; Hunter would'nt be in bussiness if they built a bad product. I don't recall any disasters I've read about due to structual defects caused by poor workmanship by the manufacturer, just bad judgements by the operators during it's use. Naturaly, when you pay more you get more, but more what? Dollars equate more to asthetics and covenience than function in the cases I've seen. A well made hull and deck on a Hunter designed for a particular use is just as sound as the big name boats where the cubic dollars go in after the F/G is done. More is not always necessarily better! After owning some of the big name boats in the past, I've come to the conclusion that I can overlook the snob appeal and be totally content in the knowledge that my Hunter will take me anywhere I want to go and that spending an extra couple hundred thousand doesn't make sense unless you have unlimited funds. I am unconcerned about the stock market, am contemplating early retirement and I'm secure in knowing that the money I've saved will be invested in enjoying some of the beautiful anchorages much sooner than if I had spent more. After all, I don't think the "sunsets" are any better off a Hinkley than a Hunter. Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop, WB4PAP Hunter 37C
I have had some bad experiences with surveyors and I've come to the conclusion that if they were at all as knowledgeable as they claim to be and charge as much as they do to survey a boat, there would be no disclaimer at the end of the survey that says they are not responsible for anything they missed or that there are no assurances as to the integrity of the vessel or thier responsibility there-in. What a job! I wish I could tell my boss I'm not responsible if something goes wrong after I've just collected my paycheck. I know I'm generalizing here and that not all surveyors are bad, in fact most are very good if they have been at it for a long time, but a survey is just an opinion unless backed up by data and worthwhile tests and the opinion of the surveyor is just that if he's not willing to back it up with his reputation and assurance that you have a good vessel. With that said, I wouldn't put much stock in anyone who renders his opinion over fact and I certainly would'nt hire him for his services. Bottom line is; Hunter would'nt be in bussiness if they built a bad product. I don't recall any disasters I've read about due to structual defects caused by poor workmanship by the manufacturer, just bad judgements by the operators during it's use. Naturaly, when you pay more you get more, but more what? Dollars equate more to asthetics and covenience than function in the cases I've seen. A well made hull and deck on a Hunter designed for a particular use is just as sound as the big name boats where the cubic dollars go in after the F/G is done. More is not always necessarily better! After owning some of the big name boats in the past, I've come to the conclusion that I can overlook the snob appeal and be totally content in the knowledge that my Hunter will take me anywhere I want to go and that spending an extra couple hundred thousand doesn't make sense unless you have unlimited funds. I am unconcerned about the stock market, am contemplating early retirement and I'm secure in knowing that the money I've saved will be invested in enjoying some of the beautiful anchorages much sooner than if I had spent more. After all, I don't think the "sunsets" are any better off a Hinkley than a Hunter. Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop, WB4PAP Hunter 37C
Speaking of Bayliners...
they DO make a pretty good boat, despite what many people think about them. I have read several reviews of their larger boats (over 30 feet) and the reveiwers were very impressed with the construction, handling, amenities and value. Like someone else said....if Bayliner built BAD boats they wouldn't be in business. As it is, they are the largest manufacturer of boats in the World! They gotta be doing something right!
they DO make a pretty good boat, despite what many people think about them. I have read several reviews of their larger boats (over 30 feet) and the reveiwers were very impressed with the construction, handling, amenities and value. Like someone else said....if Bayliner built BAD boats they wouldn't be in business. As it is, they are the largest manufacturer of boats in the World! They gotta be doing something right!
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