Peggy, I spoke to you on another forum....I was fed up with my marine head and decided to go with a Thetford 875 MSD. It arrived and I zoomed to the boat only to learn that it was just too big for my small area (Hunter 31). So....back to the starting line. I have cooled off and successfully removed all my head plumbing, and removed my sink which helped access tight areas quite a bit. I am now waiting on my Odorsafe hose, and have planned the routing of all the lines. Question #1 - You wrote: "Ahead of use, pump the toilet in the wet mode a couple of times to wet bowl (Marine toilets aren't designed to hold water, so you'll add with a cup ahead of solid waste)...switch to dry. Use the toilet, then pump enough times IN THE DRY MODE to move the bowl contents all the way to the tank...you'll have to figure out how many that is based on the distance. Switch to wet, pump 3 or 4 more times to rinse the bowl...switch back to dry to pump the rinse water all the way the way through". My tank is about 5 feet from the head and uphill. How many pumps (Raritan PHII) should it take to get fluid to my tank? Question #2 - How can you pump all the fluid to the tank in the dry mode? It seems that since you are pumping toward a vented tank, the air would bubble thru the fluids and thus, the fluids would remain in the lowest point of the hose. Maybe I'm thinking to hard, but it seems that there would have to be a check valve in the line to pump uphill. Question #3 - Do you know if anyone makes 45 degree 1 1/2" barb fittings? Thanks much
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It can do it...
Any manual toilet that's working anywhere near specs can move waste at least 6' in the dry mode. NO check valve!! The vent in the tank is at the other end of the whole system...it has nothing to do with whether the toilet can move waste to the bowl. If it did, it would also "aerate" water in the wet mode. However, if I were you, I'd put a loop--not vented, just an arch--in the head discharg...soo that you only have to pump enough times to get the bowl contents over the top of it...gravity will do the rest. Just be sure to pump enough times TO get it over the top of the loop. You can buy 45 and 90 radius fittings--and a 180 loop--at any hardware store...you can get the hose connectors--2 for each fitting (which you'll PVC cement into the radius...and btw, be sure the radius is female at both ends) from these folks: http://www.sealandservices.com/hose_fittings.htm It's part # 341513, at the bottom of the list. You can get the radius fitting from 'em too, but it'll cost you 3x as much as the hardware store.
Any manual toilet that's working anywhere near specs can move waste at least 6' in the dry mode. NO check valve!! The vent in the tank is at the other end of the whole system...it has nothing to do with whether the toilet can move waste to the bowl. If it did, it would also "aerate" water in the wet mode. However, if I were you, I'd put a loop--not vented, just an arch--in the head discharg...soo that you only have to pump enough times to get the bowl contents over the top of it...gravity will do the rest. Just be sure to pump enough times TO get it over the top of the loop. You can buy 45 and 90 radius fittings--and a 180 loop--at any hardware store...you can get the hose connectors--2 for each fitting (which you'll PVC cement into the radius...and btw, be sure the radius is female at both ends) from these folks: http://www.sealandservices.com/hose_fittings.htm It's part # 341513, at the bottom of the list. You can get the radius fitting from 'em too, but it'll cost you 3x as much as the hardware store.
Peggy will be along, but I'll take a stab...
Gary, I'm a fellow H31 owner whom Peggy nursed through this process. I have a Jabsco, so I can't answer your Q#1. I will say this: when we are out sailing, we don't worry about getting the stuff all the way to the holding tank because somebody will use the toilet shortly. (BTW, if you sound too organized, Peggy will accuse you of being an Engineer *yks) she did that to me and I had to confess ;D On Q#2, I wrassled with Peggy on this one for quite a while, then tested it myself - that danged pump is a LOT more powerful than I thought it would be, just like Peggy said it would be. In truth, it won't pump ALL the contents to the tank, but you'll have a cup or two in the uphill side of the loop (see below) that will just help keep the Joker Valve closed. Now, here's another wrinkle... if Peggy didn't get there, you need to put a loop in the hose between the head and the holding tank (yes, the pump will hoist the toilet contents over the loop). Here's a picture of what it looks like on our model of boat. BTW, I removed the shower seat.... NOBODY ever used it, and every time I stood up in the head I would slip the hook off the eye and it would slam down on part of me! Q#3 - I dunno... I was fretting about that, when I discovered that my new Jabsco came with one! Keep working at it, you'll get there! Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Gary, I'm a fellow H31 owner whom Peggy nursed through this process. I have a Jabsco, so I can't answer your Q#1. I will say this: when we are out sailing, we don't worry about getting the stuff all the way to the holding tank because somebody will use the toilet shortly. (BTW, if you sound too organized, Peggy will accuse you of being an Engineer *yks) she did that to me and I had to confess ;D On Q#2, I wrassled with Peggy on this one for quite a while, then tested it myself - that danged pump is a LOT more powerful than I thought it would be, just like Peggy said it would be. In truth, it won't pump ALL the contents to the tank, but you'll have a cup or two in the uphill side of the loop (see below) that will just help keep the Joker Valve closed. Now, here's another wrinkle... if Peggy didn't get there, you need to put a loop in the hose between the head and the holding tank (yes, the pump will hoist the toilet contents over the loop). Here's a picture of what it looks like on our model of boat. BTW, I removed the shower seat.... NOBODY ever used it, and every time I stood up in the head I would slip the hook off the eye and it would slam down on part of me! Q#3 - I dunno... I was fretting about that, when I discovered that my new Jabsco came with one! Keep working at it, you'll get there! Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
OK, I admit I'm a little thick....
None of the hose fittings listed in the link are barb fittings??? Am I missing something here, or are you saying to glue the hose into PVC fittings just as you would PVC pipe? You say "be sure the radius is female on both ends".....that sounds like an ordinary PVC pipe fitting to me. Next question....I understand the purpose for the loop from the head, but must the height of the loop be above the top of the tank? Bob....would love to see that pic if you find it. My seat was removed by the PO, and I really don't miss it. Still wondering how you can determine how far the flush contents are pushed by each pump. Without transparent hose, how do you know? Back to fittings.....if we are talking barb fittings, none of the hardware stores here have 45's. Thanks for your patience with me!
None of the hose fittings listed in the link are barb fittings??? Am I missing something here, or are you saying to glue the hose into PVC fittings just as you would PVC pipe? You say "be sure the radius is female on both ends".....that sounds like an ordinary PVC pipe fitting to me. Next question....I understand the purpose for the loop from the head, but must the height of the loop be above the top of the tank? Bob....would love to see that pic if you find it. My seat was removed by the PO, and I really don't miss it. Still wondering how you can determine how far the flush contents are pushed by each pump. Without transparent hose, how do you know? Back to fittings.....if we are talking barb fittings, none of the hardware stores here have 45's. Thanks for your patience with me!
What you're missing...
No, you don't cement the hose onto the fittings...double clamps only. No...they aren't barbed, but they don't have to be. Hose WILL stay on a smooth fitting. The part you're missing is that all those fittings aren't just one piece, they're components--1 radius plus 2 hose connectors. The components have to be PVC cemented together. Stop by a local hardware store and take a look at the PVC plumbing fittings and how they go together. Unfortunately, houshold plumbing doesn't use hoses, so hardware stores don't carry the component needed to connect hoses. Take a look at # 230311--the 90 radius (I dunno why the 45 isn't shown, 'cuz SeaLand offers it)...then at the 341513 "hose adapter"...the big end of the hose adapter fits into each end of the radius...the hose fits TIGHTLY (but not so tightly it won't go on if you warm it first and use a little dish soap to lubricate) onto the little end. The really neat part about component inline fittings is that you can put each end of hose onto the hose adapters first--where you have some room to work...then just slap some PVC cement onto 'em, and stick 'em into each end of the radius...instead of having to fight with the hose to get it around a bend, or get one end on, then fight to get the other end on. Btw...the threaded tank fitting works the same way...put the threaded piece into the tank, put the hose onto the hose adapter...glue 'em together. However, after all this it's just occurred to me to ask: you ARE asking where to get an INLINE radius fittingand how to install it? Not a toilet discharge fitting...
No, you don't cement the hose onto the fittings...double clamps only. No...they aren't barbed, but they don't have to be. Hose WILL stay on a smooth fitting. The part you're missing is that all those fittings aren't just one piece, they're components--1 radius plus 2 hose connectors. The components have to be PVC cemented together. Stop by a local hardware store and take a look at the PVC plumbing fittings and how they go together. Unfortunately, houshold plumbing doesn't use hoses, so hardware stores don't carry the component needed to connect hoses. Take a look at # 230311--the 90 radius (I dunno why the 45 isn't shown, 'cuz SeaLand offers it)...then at the 341513 "hose adapter"...the big end of the hose adapter fits into each end of the radius...the hose fits TIGHTLY (but not so tightly it won't go on if you warm it first and use a little dish soap to lubricate) onto the little end. The really neat part about component inline fittings is that you can put each end of hose onto the hose adapters first--where you have some room to work...then just slap some PVC cement onto 'em, and stick 'em into each end of the radius...instead of having to fight with the hose to get it around a bend, or get one end on, then fight to get the other end on. Btw...the threaded tank fitting works the same way...put the threaded piece into the tank, put the hose onto the hose adapter...glue 'em together. However, after all this it's just occurred to me to ask: you ARE asking where to get an INLINE radius fittingand how to install it? Not a toilet discharge fitting...
I think I got it.....
You are saying that I can buy ordinary 1 1/2" PVC slip fittings from the hardware store and then use a short piece of PVC to join the fitting to adapter #341513 which accepts the hose. Right? Question#1....I am ready to do this now, and really don't want to wait on the adapters to come in the mail. I can get to all the areas necessary to run the hose. So, would you have a problem with using barb fittings or not? Question#2....must the height of my loop from the head be higher than the top of the tank? Thanks again Peggie
You are saying that I can buy ordinary 1 1/2" PVC slip fittings from the hardware store and then use a short piece of PVC to join the fitting to adapter #341513 which accepts the hose. Right? Question#1....I am ready to do this now, and really don't want to wait on the adapters to come in the mail. I can get to all the areas necessary to run the hose. So, would you have a problem with using barb fittings or not? Question#2....must the height of my loop from the head be higher than the top of the tank? Thanks again Peggie
Not quite...
" You are saying that I can buy ordinary 1 1/2" PVC slip fittings from the hardware store and then use a short piece of PVC to join the fitting to adapter #341513 which accepts the hose. Right?" You don't need the short piece of PVC (which wouldn't work anyway because the ends have to be different sizes)...the large end of the hose adapter (which looks like it should be female, but is actually male) will fit right into in the female ends of the radius. I dunno how you'd get a barbed fitting to work. My advicee: buy the radius. Run your hoses, leaving the bend where you need the radius open. It'll be a 15 minute job to insert it. Again...we ARE talking about an inline radius to go around a tight bend...right? Yes, the loop should be above the top of the tank. If it's not, how would anything run downhill from the loop into the tank?
" You are saying that I can buy ordinary 1 1/2" PVC slip fittings from the hardware store and then use a short piece of PVC to join the fitting to adapter #341513 which accepts the hose. Right?" You don't need the short piece of PVC (which wouldn't work anyway because the ends have to be different sizes)...the large end of the hose adapter (which looks like it should be female, but is actually male) will fit right into in the female ends of the radius. I dunno how you'd get a barbed fitting to work. My advicee: buy the radius. Run your hoses, leaving the bend where you need the radius open. It'll be a 15 minute job to insert it. Again...we ARE talking about an inline radius to go around a tight bend...right? Yes, the loop should be above the top of the tank. If it's not, how would anything run downhill from the loop into the tank?
Got it....
Never mind about the barb fittings.....I just tried to push one in the old hose and it won't go. I forced it and it tore the hose. So, the adapters are required, not optional. This is what blows my mind.....you must buy them online. None of the chain marine stores sell fittings for sanitation hose WHICH THEY SELL. I'll order them tomorrow from the link below, as they are a little cheaper here than at Sealand. Yes Peggie, I am talking about turning corners between the head and the tank, and the head and the thru hull/pumpout fitting. Thanks much
Never mind about the barb fittings.....I just tried to push one in the old hose and it won't go. I forced it and it tore the hose. So, the adapters are required, not optional. This is what blows my mind.....you must buy them online. None of the chain marine stores sell fittings for sanitation hose WHICH THEY SELL. I'll order them tomorrow from the link below, as they are a little cheaper here than at Sealand. Yes Peggie, I am talking about turning corners between the head and the tank, and the head and the thru hull/pumpout fitting. Thanks much
I think I got it.......
Look at the description of the Sealand 230311 90 degree bend kit. It INCLUDES 2 of the 341513 Custom Hose Adaptors and they are shown in the drawing to the left. *yks I was getting myself tied in knots trying to figure out how all this stuff is supposed to fit together when it was so simple when I did it. As an alternative, what about a West Marine (I know, we all hate them, but they have a REALLY NEAT catalog with everything in it and then you can go buy it from somewhere else) #1856392 ? Peggy, can you help? I LOST those 2 great pictures of the loops in my head. Can you post them, please if you still have them? Thanks. Yes, Gary, the fit will be tight. Dishwashing soap is the best lubricant for this. We used to use it by the gallon when trying to fit a 3.5" piece of coaxial cable into a 4" piece of flex conduit to run down to Minuteman Launch Control Facilities... but that's another story. That old hose is going to be brittle, too. And in my experience (which is much less in this area than Peggy's) 1.5 inch hose and 1.5 inch fittings will fit together, you shouldn't need any adaptor. Lube them and heat them gently and double-clamp them and you'll be fine. Peggy, I'm suspecting that Gary is an ENGINEER, so you'll need to treat him accordingly... you did a great job with me
Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8 PS, the Commodore thinks I'm in a CHAT ROOM.... what should I say *yks
Look at the description of the Sealand 230311 90 degree bend kit. It INCLUDES 2 of the 341513 Custom Hose Adaptors and they are shown in the drawing to the left. *yks I was getting myself tied in knots trying to figure out how all this stuff is supposed to fit together when it was so simple when I did it. As an alternative, what about a West Marine (I know, we all hate them, but they have a REALLY NEAT catalog with everything in it and then you can go buy it from somewhere else) #1856392 ? Peggy, can you help? I LOST those 2 great pictures of the loops in my head. Can you post them, please if you still have them? Thanks. Yes, Gary, the fit will be tight. Dishwashing soap is the best lubricant for this. We used to use it by the gallon when trying to fit a 3.5" piece of coaxial cable into a 4" piece of flex conduit to run down to Minuteman Launch Control Facilities... but that's another story. That old hose is going to be brittle, too. And in my experience (which is much less in this area than Peggy's) 1.5 inch hose and 1.5 inch fittings will fit together, you shouldn't need any adaptor. Lube them and heat them gently and double-clamp them and you'll be fine. Peggy, I'm suspecting that Gary is an ENGINEER, so you'll need to treat him accordingly... you did a great job with me
Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8 PS, the Commodore thinks I'm in a CHAT ROOM.... what should I say *yks
The site I gave you isn't SeaLand, they're just vendors
SeaLand shows all the hose fittings in their hard copy of their retail catalog, but not on their website...the link I gave is the only site I've been able to find that does. You can buy just the hose adapter from the site you found, or you can get any of the components individually directly from Sealand...call 'em at: 800-321-9881. Bob, these aren't the same type of fittings you're thinking of. You do need hose adapters. If you look under the sink in your bathroom at home, you'll understand why...'cuz they're the same kind as we're talking about. Btw...K-Y jelly is an even better lubricant than dish soap. Much slipprier, and water soluble, so it dries out like dish soap.
SeaLand shows all the hose fittings in their hard copy of their retail catalog, but not on their website...the link I gave is the only site I've been able to find that does. You can buy just the hose adapter from the site you found, or you can get any of the components individually directly from Sealand...call 'em at: 800-321-9881. Bob, these aren't the same type of fittings you're thinking of. You do need hose adapters. If you look under the sink in your bathroom at home, you'll understand why...'cuz they're the same kind as we're talking about. Btw...K-Y jelly is an even better lubricant than dish soap. Much slipprier, and water soluble, so it dries out like dish soap.
Hot Dang, yesterday I couldn't spell engineer....
and today I are one! Bob, are you saying that you used ordinary grey 1 1/2" barb fittings that they sell at home depot/lowes for ~$1 each into the sanitation hose? I didn't try lubricant, but standing at my workbench, not on my ear under the sink, I couldn't get one on without ripping the hose wall. Perhaps the old hose was more brittle than new, as you said Bob.
and today I are one! Bob, are you saying that you used ordinary grey 1 1/2" barb fittings that they sell at home depot/lowes for ~$1 each into the sanitation hose? I didn't try lubricant, but standing at my workbench, not on my ear under the sink, I couldn't get one on without ripping the hose wall. Perhaps the old hose was more brittle than new, as you said Bob.
Gary, I bought my stuff at West Marine -
the hose is right next to the fittings. They didn't even complain when I played with the fittings and hoses. More pricey, but I got exactly what I wanted. So I don't understand why you said 'none of the chain marine stores sell....' - unless I got the wrong stuff, and I don't think so! Peggy, I'll grant K-Y is a better lubricant,but I KNOW that everybody has dishwashing soap on any boat large enough to have a real head! And if you really want to get slippery, there's this stuff called Eros... but this isn't that kind of forum ;D Off to the Long Beach boat show to do a lot of walking and dreaming!!! Is there anything more beautiful than BRAND NEW gel-coat???? Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
the hose is right next to the fittings. They didn't even complain when I played with the fittings and hoses. More pricey, but I got exactly what I wanted. So I don't understand why you said 'none of the chain marine stores sell....' - unless I got the wrong stuff, and I don't think so! Peggy, I'll grant K-Y is a better lubricant,
but I KNOW that everybody has dishwashing soap on any boat large enough to have a real head! And if you really want to get slippery, there's this stuff called Eros... but this isn't that kind of forum ;D Off to the Long Beach boat show to do a lot of walking and dreaming!!! Is there anything more beautiful than BRAND NEW gel-coat???? Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Don't use 1.5" Gray PVC...
You'll never get a hose onto 'em. 'Cuz for reasons known only to God and the plumbing industry (and maybe only God, 'cuz I've never been able to find anyone who knows why), nominal 1.5" thread x 1.5" barb is ACTUAL 1.5 thread x 1 5/8" barb. This only applies to gray PVC, and only to 1.5" fittings. Marelon and nylon are actual 1.5 x 1.5. Bob, none of the marine stores sell the type of fittings Gary and I have been discussing. They only sell the thread-barb fittings...which are ok, but can be much harder to use in some locations than component plumbing fittings. Most only carry THREAD-barb tank fittings...it can be very hard to find barb-barb fittings at marine stores.
You'll never get a hose onto 'em. 'Cuz for reasons known only to God and the plumbing industry (and maybe only God, 'cuz I've never been able to find anyone who knows why), nominal 1.5" thread x 1.5" barb is ACTUAL 1.5 thread x 1 5/8" barb. This only applies to gray PVC, and only to 1.5" fittings. Marelon and nylon are actual 1.5 x 1.5. Bob, none of the marine stores sell the type of fittings Gary and I have been discussing. They only sell the thread-barb fittings...which are ok, but can be much harder to use in some locations than component plumbing fittings. Most only carry THREAD-barb tank fittings...it can be very hard to find barb-barb fittings at marine stores.
There is one option....
I went by the local farmer's co-op here in town and they stock agricultural barbed fittings which look like Marlon and are real tough stuff, AND THEY FIT THE SANITATION HOSE. He had a variety of fittings.....90's, male adapters, etc. I took a short section of san. hose with me to make sure it would fit. You are correct Peggie (as usual) that the grey barb ones are slightly larger diameter. The guy helping me, who's pretty sharp, said the grey fittings are for a different type hose. I think it's the black thin wall hose that is real hard and comes banded in large rolls. Not sure of its application. Now, the way I see it, for ease of application, go with Peggie's method, so as to simply glue fittings together in hard to get to places. If you can access the areas, the fittings mentioned here would work OK. Sheesh, the prep stage of this project might be worse than the installation. Thanks!
I went by the local farmer's co-op here in town and they stock agricultural barbed fittings which look like Marlon and are real tough stuff, AND THEY FIT THE SANITATION HOSE. He had a variety of fittings.....90's, male adapters, etc. I took a short section of san. hose with me to make sure it would fit. You are correct Peggie (as usual) that the grey barb ones are slightly larger diameter. The guy helping me, who's pretty sharp, said the grey fittings are for a different type hose. I think it's the black thin wall hose that is real hard and comes banded in large rolls. Not sure of its application. Now, the way I see it, for ease of application, go with Peggie's method, so as to simply glue fittings together in hard to get to places. If you can access the areas, the fittings mentioned here would work OK. Sheesh, the prep stage of this project might be worse than the installation. Thanks!
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