Need a true varnish expert

[Skipper]

Had the exterior teak restored at (was)Hinckley yard in Annapolis. 8 coats of stunning.
Then maint coats each year for 3 years. Always fabulous.
Now we and the boat are in SoCal, so my trusted varnish guy ain't here. Tried maint coats myself. Hideous. Stopped varnishing.
I sanded with 220, cleaned with acetone, then alcohol. Still hideous. Ridges, runs, blotchy. Like old varnish is rejecting new. Looks like bad paint job. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Tried very light coat, then heavier. Tried foam and bristle. Crap.
Any ideas?
Also wood was not hot. Not direct sun.

 

[Skipper]

This is what it has always previously looked like. Glass.

 

[agprice22]

You want Chris Patterson...

 

[Rick D]

Well, I had a wooden boat for 19 years, so I have a little experience. It was a long time ago with real resin-rich oil base varnish, however. Are you using California AQMD low-VOC varnish for the first time? That may be one issue. If you have used it in the past without a problem, then it sure seems like a compatibility issue. For my part, I *might* favor out-of-state formulas. I did touch ups a couple of years ago in Mexico. Got the varnish at Home Depot there. Flows and holds up very well. I'm sure some real experts will weigh in on this with better analysis. Hang in there! Hope you don't have to strip it.

 

[Skipper]

Well, I had a wooden boat for 19 years, so I have a little experience. It was a long time ago with real resin-rich oil base varnish, however. Are you using California AQMD low-VOC varnish for the first time? That may be one issue. If you have used it in the past without a problem, then it sure seems like a compatibility issue. For my part, I *might* favor out-of-state formulas. I did touch ups a couple of years ago in Mexico. Got the varnish at Home Depot there. Flows and holds up very well. I'm sure some real experts will weigh in on this with better analysis. Hang in there! Hope you don't have to strip it.

Thank you, Rick.
I'm using Epifanes high gloss. I'm assuming the formula is the same nationwide(?). I had asked for this brand to be used in Annapolis, but the reality is that it's unknown what was actually used.
Edit: am using new can, dispensed into working cup.

 

[Rick D]

Thank you, Rick.
I'm using Epifanes high gloss. I'm assuming the formula is the same nationwide(?). I had asked for this brand to be used in Annapolis, but the reality is that it's unknown what was actually used.
Edit: am using new can, dispensed into working cup.

In the far reaches of what masquerades as my brain, I seem to recall that Epifanes changed their formula a while ago. I'd suggest sending the photos to them and see what they come back with. You probably already did. Good luck!

 

[TomY]

It looks to me like your varnish didn't flowout flat. Like it was too thick on the brush, at the time of application.

Maybe due to the conditions: Dry, windy, too much sun, hot?

Or the varnish needed thinning to start with. Whatever the cause - the varnish didn't flow out flat to start with.

Maybe a combination of the two.

Let it dry several days and flat sand with a block to keep the surface flat. You might have to go to a coarser grit to start (because of the rough new varnish coat), and finish with 220 or finer.

When you're ready to put on the new finish coats, make sure the weather is right. Start before (or after) direct sunlight is on the boat, little or no wind.

Test a patch: Brush on a thin coat. Does it slide easily on the surface? Does it lay flat after just a few strokes? Do you have time to keep moving without it starting to drag on the brush? If not, you should thin the varnish with small amounts of the recommended thinner(or figure the conditions are wrong).

A trick that might help: Use a small foam roller and pan. Even though the surfaces are small, the roller helps distribute an even coat of varnish on the surface. Roll out a couple - three feet of toe rail, then tip it off with your wet brush. I could see in one of your closeups of the toe rail, the coat was very uneven - some parts were not coated and some too heavily. The roller helps to cover the surface evenly.

Good luck, the boat looks nice and the brightwork is well done. You can fix it!

 

[DougM]

My limited experience has been with Epifanes and had good luck with it. I always used a clean high quality varnish brush, which I think helped the varnish to flow better during application.
Base coats were clear, thinned 50 percent (usually 2 coats). scuffed with a maroon Scotchbright pad between coats and wiped down with a tack cloth and thinner. Followed the same process with 3-4 more coats thinned 25 percent. Final coat was straight semigloss. I used semigloss for the final coat because it had at least some albeit slight UV inhibiting ability.

 

[Gunni]

I don't believe the Epiphanes we buy in Annapolis is the same Epiphanes you can buy in California. VOCs

 

[Skipper]

It looks to me like your varnish didn't flowout flat. Like it was too thick on the brush, at the time of application.

Maybe due to the conditions: Dry, windy, too much sun, hot?

Or the varnish needed thinning to start with. Whatever the cause - the varnish didn't flow out flat to start with.

Maybe a combination of the two.

Let it dry several days and flat sand with a block to keep the surface flat. You might have to go to a coarser grit to start (because of the rough new varnish coat), and finish with 220 or finer.

When you're ready to put on the new finish coats, make sure the weather is right. Start before (or after) direct sunlight is on the boat, little or no wind.

Test a patch: Brush on a thin coat. Does it slide easily on the surface? Does it lay flat after just a few strokes? Do you have time to keep moving without it starting to drag on the brush? If not, you should thin the varnish with small amounts of the recommended thinner(or figure the conditions are wrong).

A trick that might help: Use a small foam roller and pan. Even though the surfaces are small, the roller helps distribute an even coat of varnish on the surface. Roll out a couple - three feet of toe rail, then tip it off with your wet brush. I could see in one of your closeups of the toe rail, the coat was very uneven - some parts were not coated and some too heavily. The roller helps to cover the surface evenly.

Good luck, the boat looks nice and the brightwork is well done. You can fix it!

Thank you, Tom.
I thought the weather was perfect. 65-70 degrees, no wind. Light humidity. The sun was up but too high to be directly on the vertical surfaces. Also the starboard bow was in the shade as the sun was on the other side.
The uneven part to which you refer was coated in the same technique and brush content on the whole area. It just took to part of the wood and not other. Also no amount of tipping off would remove the ridges. Looked like a chemical reaction. Or product itself too thick maybe as you suggest. Also seemed to get tacky fast and began resisting strokes. But why would new can need thinning? But from what you are saying it sounds like it needs it. Is Epifanes known for too thick?

Also on another rail, not pictured, the varnish went on even, but after drying saw it was loaded with brush marks. Very sloppy job. So I've got multiple reactions on different pieces.

When you thin the varnish, how do you know when it's the right consistency? Or just use a measure cup?

 

[Skipper]

I don't believe the Epiphanes we buy in Annapolis is the same Epiphanes you can buy in California. VOCs

Thanks Gunni. I'm going to email them today. Although I did search their website and found nothing about it. Also checked online stores in the east and no indication i.e.: version or won't ship to CA, etc.

 

[Bosman]

Try Flagship Varnish by Pettit. Absolutely deep, high gloss finish. http://www.pettitpaint.com/product.asp?id=62

 

[jon hansen]

i own a couple of varnish farms. have had pleasant dreams of painting it all with latex exterior house paint. epiphanes user. they claim best uv protection. who knows. as a young pup i asked to dad to varnish. he said that i had to have 10,000 hrs of sanding first because you can do more damage with a varnish brush in 10 minutes that will take weeks to get out. practice on a piece of scrap plywood till you find whats best for your area. use straight, add a little thinning agent, try again, add some more agent,......... and so on. find your best recipe.

 

[Eddie7045]

I've had problems with oil based paint and water based paint not being compatible when applying successive coats. Then too you cannot be sure what was actually used previously. Also California has very strict environmental laws so very possibly there are slight but significant formula differences in batches sold in different states. Immediately I got the feeling that is the main problem.
Prepping the previously coated surface using bronze wool was the preferred method used by the old pros. I learned that from a guy 2 slips over from me who was stripping the varnish off his wood because he unwittingly prepped it with steel wool and it developed "freckles" as microscopic particles off the steel wool rusted within the latest layer of varnish. Could'da been me.

 

[Skipper]

Thanks Gunni. I'm going to email them today. Although I did search their website and found nothing about it. Also checked online stores in the east and no indication i.e.: version or won't ship to CA, etc.

Update: Epifanes says there is no difference.
Says because they are classified as "marine" and not "household", the varnish is not affected.

 

[TomY]

Thank you, Tom.
I thought the weather was perfect. 65-70 degrees, no wind. Light humidity. The sun was up but too high to be directly on the vertical surfaces. Also the starboard bow was in the shade as the sun was on the other side.
The uneven part to which you refer was coated in the same technique and brush content on the whole area. It just took to part of the wood and not other. Also no amount of tipping off would remove the ridges. Looked like a chemical reaction. Or product itself too thick maybe as you suggest. Also seemed to get tacky fast and began resisting strokes. But why would new can need thinning? But from what you are saying it sounds like it needs it. Is Epifanes known for too thick?

Also on another rail, not pictured, the varnish went on even, but after drying saw it was loaded with brush marks. Very sloppy job. So I've got multiple reactions on different pieces.

When you thin the varnish, how do you know when it's the right consistency? Or just use a measure cup?

Sounds like weather wasn't a factor. You say it lifted in some areas while wet. Plus some areas acted differently. That sounds like something may be contaminating the surface.

I guess I'd ask somebody locally to look at it and see if they have an idea.

Thinning usually isn't needed for top coats if weather conditions are good. But if you do, with your varnish in a small container, just add a little thinner at a time so that it goes on easily -doesn't drag, and light tipping removes the brush marks.

It's hard to get the results that professional varnishers get, but for most of us, applying a reasonably even coat of varnish, is easy stuff to do. No trickier than any other one part coating. When you get it figured out, let us know what the problem was.

 

[Skipper]

I've just learned from my varnish guy in Annapolis that he may have used Pettit Flagship, not Epifanes.
I'm using Epifanes. Not sure if it matters.

 

[Skipper]

Sounds like weather wasn't a factor. You say it lifted in some areas while wet. Plus some areas acted differently. That sounds like something may be contaminating the surface.

I guess I'd ask somebody locally to look at it and see if they have an idea.

Thinning usually isn't needed for top coats if weather conditions are good. But if you do, with your varnish in a small container, just add a little thinner at a time so that it goes on easily -doesn't drag, and light tipping removes the brush marks.

It's hard to get the results that professional varnishers get, but for most of us, applying a reasonably even coat of varnish, is easy stuff to do. No trickier than any other one part coating. When you get it figured out, let us know what the problem was.

Thank you, Tom.
Will do.

 

[kampuniform]

A couple of things here:

- How it is brushed is irrelevant; how it "flows" is irrelevant; how it is thinned is irrelevant.
-Hand applied finishes are extremely labour intensive, and the easy part is slathering on a product.
-If you are doing it right, you will have just cause to never want to do it again. (I'm an antique restorer, so French polishing is my stock in trade.)

A couple of questions:
-Were you using an old tin of finish?
-Did you allow sufficient time for all the acetone and alcohol to gas off?
-Did you give the original finish a good sanding before applying the new?

In this instance, compatibility is almost irrelevant, as the original finish would have had a reactive thinner to allow it to harden.

If you are finishing by hand, this necessitates sanding, sanding, and more sanding. Once the sanding is finished, then the polishing commences. Hand finishing never ends at simply brushing on product. The up-side to all of this is that errors (runs, sags, ridges, etc.) are easily corrected with more sanding and polishing.

 

[Skipper]

A couple of things here:

- How it is brushed is irrelevant; how it "flows" is irrelevant; how it is thinned is irrelevant.
-Hand applied finishes are extremely labour intensive, and the easy part is slathering on a product.
-If you are doing it right, you will have just cause to never want to do it again. (I'm an antique restorer, so French polishing is my stock in trade.)

A couple of questions:
-Were you using an old tin of finish?
-Did you allow sufficient time for all the acetone and alcohol to gas off?
-Did you give the original finish a good sanding before applying the new?

In this instance, compatibility is almost irrelevant, as the original finish would have had a reactive thinner to allow it to harden.

If you are finishing by hand, this necessitates sanding, sanding, and more sanding. Once the sanding is finished, then the polishing commences. Hand finishing never ends at simply brushing on product. The up-side to all of this is that errors (runs, sags, ridges, etc.) are easily corrected with more sanding and polishing.

All of those answers were in my posts.
Your other points about sanding I think are quite valuable. I sanded, but may not have been nearly sufficient. I'll be testing this theory on the next go.
The problem is that there is no way for a layman varnisher to judge sufficient sanding. Don't know what to look for. Most info on the net says to just scratch it with 220 to provide teeth. I don't want to sand off 12 coats. I'll have to practice on a small area as another suggested, with levels of sanding, thinning, etc.