Need a true varnish expert

[kampuniform]

All of those answers were in my posts.
Your other points about sanding I think are quite valuable. I sanded, but may not have been nearly sufficient. I'll be testing this theory on the next go.
The problem is that there is no way for a layman varnisher to judge sufficient sanding. Don't know what to look for. Most info on the net says to just scratch it with 220 to provide teeth. I don't want to sand off 12 coats. I'll have to practice on a small area as another suggested, with levels of sanding, thinning, etc.

You want the piece to have a glaze, and all errors (ridges, sags, runs, etc.) sanded away smoothly. You don't have to worry about ruining the finish, as the sanding glaze will not show through subsequent coats.

220 is a little too aggressive. I recommend starting at 400/600 wet-dry.

You will want to sand up to 1000 wet-dry on your final coat, then polish with a rubbing compound. Meguiars is the industry standard for polishing compounds.

FYI, 8 coats is far too many, and betrays the fact the original finisher did not fill the grain before applying the finish.

 

[Richard19068]

I'm not an expert but have recoated ( 3 - 4 coats) about once a year for 15 years or so. My experience with Epifanes is that it is more finicky than other varnishes I have used. I have had results resembling yours. It seems very thick and I have had better luck when it has been thinned 15- 20 % or so. Obviously you need to sand a bit to smooth out the problems you now have. Then, don't try to cover too much of a section with one brush dip. Do a short section and move on without restroking the section you previously covered.

For what it's worth I have found that when I get the Epifanes working that it lasts a bit longer than the other varnishes I have used. Also, I do think I got an old can one time because I just couldn't get it to lay down properly. Maybe that is your problem. There is a production number on the bottom of the can and when I buy it I try to get the highest number I can see on the shelf. I know West Marine Just had a sale on Epifanes and the numbers on some cans were much lower than others. Maybe I'm deluding myself about this. I also try to buy the freshest beer I can. Some people can't taste the difference, but I do.

None of this may be helpful but good luck.

 

[NICK1951]

Skipper.
When was the can first opened? I use Epifanes high gloss on my teak in Michigan. I have noticed, if the was opened previously, the air negatively affects the varnish. Try a product like Bloxygen to displace the air in the can before closing the lid.

Nick

 

[Skipper]

I'm not an expert but have recoated ( 3 - 4 coats) about once a year for 15 years or so. My experience with Epifanes is that it is more finicky than other varnishes I have used. I have had results resembling yours. It seems very thick and I have had better luck when it has been thinned 15- 20 % or so. Obviously you need to sand a bit to smooth out the problems you now have. Then, don't try to cover too much of a section with one brush dip. Do a short section and move on without restroking the section you previously covered.

For what it's worth I have found that when I get the Epifanes working that it lasts a bit longer than the other varnishes I have used. Also, I do think I got an old can one time because I just couldn't get it to lay down properly. Maybe that is your problem. There is a production number on the bottom of the can and when I buy it I try to get the highest number I can see on the shelf. I know West Marine Just had a sale on Epifanes and the numbers on some cans were much lower than others. Maybe I'm deluding myself about this. I also try to buy the freshest beer I can. Some people can't taste the difference, but I do.

None of this may be helpful but good luck.

Actually very helpful.
I think it's too thick too. I thinned it slightly on my last try yesterday, and it came out a little better, still not the glass that it was.
Since I'm on the subject:
Epifanes is too thick and dries too fast. It also does not have the same translucence or sheen that Pettit Flagship has, which I discovered was the undercoats.
The thickness and fast drying cause brush strokes and other irregularities. It does not settle. Even on fantastically prepped and smooth wood.
It might be fine in an enclosed, climate-controlled workshop, but most people don't have that option. I'm in the slip out in the open. Even the part that I did at 8:00am at 63 degrees had brush strokes. -Badger style China bristle brush.
This time I used a 3" roller, then tipped off with the brush. Excellent coverage but it wouldn't settle.
Also it fisheyed on the stbd outer, even though I had cleaned the wood with denatured alcohol.
Also I thinned it (not enough maybe), filtered it, applied in the cool morning, used a quality obnoxiously-expensive brush, cleaned with tack cloth, applied to baby smooth wood, and didn't touch it after tipping off. Was very quick with the application. So I did as I was told by the manufacturer whom I communicated with via email.
Still not very good results.
From 10 feet away, it looks good. From 1 foot away, it looks like a kid smeared tree sap on it and it dried.
I'll keep it (pictures below) and try Pettit next time. Just sand it smooth again. Also I still have other parts of the boat that are pristine that I haven't fouled.
Lesson: Don't use a foam brush for application of this thick fast-tack varnish. The brush folds under like a leaf. And the varnish dries in the brush which brakes the strokes. That was a big contributor to the initial mess on the first try.
A roller worked well and fast for application. Done in short sections. Quick with the brush to top off.
Don't use unthinned Epifanes outside, unless maybe you're under a tree or something.
By the way, the manufacturer was outstanding in their support effort. Exceptional service and willingness to help as best as possible from a distance.

Edit: that first pic looks ok, but the camera doesn't see the loads of brush strokes and ridges. The previous varnish had zero.

 

[Skipper]

Skipper.
When was the can first opened? I use Epifanes high gloss on my teak in Michigan. I have noticed, if the was opened previously, the air negatively affects the varnish. Try a product like Bloxygen to displace the air in the can before closing the lid.

Nick

It was a new can. Thanks for the air displacing tip.

 

[TomY]

Much better!

I agree with your first thought: Too thick for whatever reason - or the conditions.

I've used most of the brands of varnish and have not settled on one that I prefer so much that I go looking for it.

I've used Epifanes and I recall it was more finicky. It was thicker than most right out of the can. But it's a nice varnish and if you can work with it, will build fast.

I've used cheaper hardware store spar varnish for many years and got some of my best results. Easiest to apply I think because it's thinner right out of the can. There are varying reports on the amount of UV protection in the various brands. A bit of mystery, a bit of marketing. I've never found a bad one.

The boatyard in my harbor has varnish wizards. Most of their work is done inside. But quite a bit of their maintenance varnish work is done at the docks. In spring (notoriously wet here), there is often a boat with it's house fogged by flat sanding.

When I look at this prep work for a maintenance coat, I note that they use sanding blocks of various kinds and lightly hand sand until the entire surface is foggy, no gloss. But you can see it's a light sanding. On this boat - with a varnish coating probably over 10 years old - some dimples and dings are below the surface and still look glossy.

Keep in mind: Because they (yard) have always maintained this boat that is painted and varnished; all of those surfaces, through seasons of maintenance - are dead flat from their skilled prep work.

Lot's of dings and damage but the wood (over 60 years old on this boat), is protected from the elements. Protection; that's what the yard is looking for. Varnish, often mistaken for a cosmetic coating is first a protective coating.

Because it's a clear coating, you can see the state of the wood beneath(which you can't with paint). The fact the look of varnish is appealing, is secondary. Over all, for this type of wooden boat with a bright house, varnish (easy on- easy off), is the best and cheapest way to preserve the wood.

Because they are pro's - and the owners expect it(and pay for it), they achieve that beautiful coating, even outside(waiting for cooperative weather). For them, it's little more work; in fact, a near perfect finish, is probably the fastest; it will make next years prep easier.

I don't achieve these results, but I learn quite a bit just watching them.

Actually very helpful.
I think it's too thick too. I thinned it slightly on my last try yesterday, and it came out a little better, still not the glass that it was.
Since I'm on the subject:
Epifanes is too thick and dries too fast. It also does not have the same translucence or sheen that Pettit Flagship has, which I discovered was the undercoats.
The thickness and fast drying cause brush strokes and other irregularities. It does not settle. Even on fantastically prepped and smooth wood.
It might be fine in an enclosed, climate-controlled workshop, but most people don't have that option. I'm in the slip out in the open. Even the part that I did at 8:00am at 63 degrees had brush strokes. -Badger style China bristle brush.
This time I used a 3" roller, then tipped off with the brush. Excellent coverage but it wouldn't settle.
Also it fisheyed on the stbd outer, even though I had cleaned the wood with denatured alcohol.
Also I thinned it (not enough maybe), filtered it, applied in the cool morning, used a quality obnoxiously-expensive brush, cleaned with tack cloth, applied to baby smooth wood, and didn't touch it after tipping off. Was very quick with the application. So I did as I was told by the manufacturer whom I communicated with via email.
Still not very good results.
From 10 feet away, it looks good. From 1 foot away, it looks like a kid smeared tree sap on it and it dried.
I'll keep it (pictures below) and try Pettit next time. Just sand it smooth again. Also I still have other parts of the boat that are pristine that I haven't fouled.
Lesson: Don't use a foam brush for application of this thick fast-tack varnish. The brush folds under like a leaf. And the varnish dries in the brush which brakes the strokes. That was a big contributor to the initial mess on the first try.
A roller worked well and fast for application. Done in short sections. Quick with the brush to top off.
Don't use unthinned Epifanes outside, unless maybe you're under a tree or something.
By the way, the manufacturer was outstanding in their support effort. Exceptional service and willingness to help as best as possible from a distance.

Edit: that first pic looks ok, but the camera doesn't see the loads of brush strokes and ridges. The previous varnish had zero.

 

[Skipper]

Much better!

I agree with your first thought: Too thick for whatever reason - or the conditions.

I've used most of the brands of varnish and have not settled on one that I prefer so much that I go looking for it.

I've used Epifanes and I recall it was more finicky. It was thicker than most right out of the can. But it's a nice varnish and if you can work with it, will build fast.

I've used cheaper hardware store spar varnish for many years and got some of my best results. Easiest to apply I think because it's thinner right out of the can. There are varying reports on the amount of UV protection in the various brands. A bit of mystery, a bit of marketing. I've never found a bad one.

The boatyard in my harbor has varnish wizards. Most of their work is done inside. But quite a bit of their maintenance varnish work is done at the docks. In spring (notoriously wet here), there is often a boat with it's house fogged by flat sanding.

When I look at this prep work for a maintenance coat, I note that they use sanding blocks of various kinds and lightly hand sand until the entire surface is foggy, no gloss. But you can see it's a light sanding. On this boat - with a varnish coating probably over 10 years old - some dimples and dings are below the surface and still look glossy.

Keep in mind: Because they (yard) have always maintained this boat that is painted and varnished; all of those surfaces, through seasons of maintenance - are dead flat from their skilled prep work.

Lot's of dings and damage but the wood (over 60 years old on this boat), is protected from the elements. Protection; that's what the yard is looking for. Varnish, often mistaken for a cosmetic coating is first a protective coating.

Because it's a clear coating, you can see the state of the wood beneath(which you can't with paint). The fact the look of varnish is appealing, is secondary. Over all, for this type of wooden boat with a bright house, varnish (easy on- easy off), is the best and cheapest way to preserve the wood.
View attachment 135849
Because they are pro's - and the owners expect it(and pay for it), they achieve that beautiful coating, even outside(waiting for cooperative weather). For them, it's little more work; in fact, a near perfect finish, is probably the fastest; it will make next years prep easier.

View attachment 135850

I don't achieve these results, but I learn quite a bit just watching them.

View attachment 135851

Thank you Tom for your detailed information and nice pictures.
I'll be doing the cockpit combings in the near future - they're still unfouled by me -, and I'll use all of the info gained on this site. I'm going to try a different brand also.
Will pm you with results, if you're interested.

 

[Stephen11]

Hello, I'm also in the process of renovating the hull of my boat. Being a novice in this field, I'd like to ask you which type of varnish you prefer. There are so many options available online, and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. I've considered using a marine varnish that I found on Google, but I'm not yet convinced of its effectiveness. Thank you in advance for sharing your experience. By the way, I've finished painting it and I'm now in the finishing phase.

 

[jviss]

Hello, I'm also in the process of renovating the hull of my boat. Being a novice in this field, I'd like to ask you which type of varnish you prefer. There are so many options available online, and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. I've considered using a marine varnish that I found on Google, but I'm not yet convinced of its effectiveness. Thank you in advance for sharing your experience. By the way, I've finished painting it and I'm now in the finishing phase.

Perhaps you didn't realize this thread is 6 years old. Perhaps better to start a new thread.

Welcome to the site.

j

 

[jssailem]

Hello @Stephen11 Welcome to the SBO forum.

Varnish is a personal choice. Some owners swear by certain brands others swear at the varnish.

You might try looking in the marina near your boat for the best varnish job on the docks and start a conversation with the owner as to what is being used.

I have found that Total Boat makes good varnish. Outside I like the Gleam 2.0 to go on smoothly, level, hard surface, and permits 3 coats in a day without sanding between coats. Inside the boat I use their water based varnish Halcyon. No odors, water clean-up, same multiple coat application.

There is a YouTube boat repair guy Andy of BoatworksToday that did an interesting comparison.