Looking for advice on the ideal sailboat for my purposes. I am an American living in the Salerno, Italy area. I'm looking for a used sailboat in the 28-34 foot range, prefer an aft cabin and head with holding tank. I wish to spend less than 35k as I must also pay to have the boat transported to the Med. I won't be participating in any regatas, just coastal cruising with my family. I know...why not buy here. The prices are much more here than in the US. Even after paying the transport fees, the 'good deal' comes out cheaper. Obviously, I'm looking for the most for the least. It has already been recommended that I go with a Pearson 28-2. I'm also interested in any costing analysis. I'm new to sailing, and wish to be informed as to ALL of the expenses. I'm sure that someone has some sort of spreadsheet that lists all of the expenses, time changes, etc. Something that takes into account the short as well as long term expenses, and breaks that down into a monthly cost. I appreciate any help at all.
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Don't underestimate buying it there
Steven, we haven't made it to Italy yet but, were I you, I wouldn't presume all boats are more expensive there than a 'good buy' is going to cost you, eventually, after you buy it here & ship it over there. Yes, VAT inflates the price of all boats in Europe, but there are also non-EU areas where goods may not be so highly taxed, charter fleets that rotate out their stock, and there are many cruising boats in the Med that have never paid VAT and so will be priced accordingly. How are you planning on picking your boat back in North America? What will it cost to insure & ship? What mods will you need to make in order to convert it to the European infrastructure? Slovenia, France and Germany have been making inexpensive boats for many years now, using high volume production to keep costs very low. I would never buy a boat in the UK because the prices are egregious...but I've seen many a reasonable buy on non-VAT used boats in the British periodicals, some located in the Med. Were I you, I'd dig deeper over there while shopping back here. Jack WHOOSH, wintering at St. Kat's Haven, London
Steven, we haven't made it to Italy yet but, were I you, I wouldn't presume all boats are more expensive there than a 'good buy' is going to cost you, eventually, after you buy it here & ship it over there. Yes, VAT inflates the price of all boats in Europe, but there are also non-EU areas where goods may not be so highly taxed, charter fleets that rotate out their stock, and there are many cruising boats in the Med that have never paid VAT and so will be priced accordingly. How are you planning on picking your boat back in North America? What will it cost to insure & ship? What mods will you need to make in order to convert it to the European infrastructure? Slovenia, France and Germany have been making inexpensive boats for many years now, using high volume production to keep costs very low. I would never buy a boat in the UK because the prices are egregious...but I've seen many a reasonable buy on non-VAT used boats in the British periodicals, some located in the Med. Were I you, I'd dig deeper over there while shopping back here. Jack WHOOSH, wintering at St. Kat's Haven, London
Expenses
Steven, You are asking a very broad question here. I was almost ready to ask if you wanted us to sail it for you as well, then I had second thoughts and decided to spell out a few things. Much depends on what kind of boat you get, meaning age, equipment on board and so on. A. Monthly maintenance. Fuel, Dockage, Insurance. B. Annual. Haul out/bottom paint. Inspect and service thru hulls, prop, zincs, cutlass bearing. Possible up grade of electronics, sails, running rigging, standing rigging. Buff/Polish of hull. Refinish teak. Inspect, repair or replace all outside canvas. Some idea of cost. Replacing sails cost me $4000.00 this year. I spent $6000.00 last year on having stuffing box replaced, new speed, depth, and wind instruments installed along with new cutlass bearing and a bottom job. None of this equates to cost in Italy. That you will have to check out yourself. Probably the best advise I can give you is to go hang out at a local marina and make friends. That way, perhaps a boat owner will guide you through all of the issues you have and be more effective than what you will find here on this site. And I am sure that you have heard this before, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it". Do a little research on your own over there and you'll probably get enough answers to your questions to help you make a decision. Good Luck.
Steven, You are asking a very broad question here. I was almost ready to ask if you wanted us to sail it for you as well, then I had second thoughts and decided to spell out a few things. Much depends on what kind of boat you get, meaning age, equipment on board and so on. A. Monthly maintenance. Fuel, Dockage, Insurance. B. Annual. Haul out/bottom paint. Inspect and service thru hulls, prop, zincs, cutlass bearing. Possible up grade of electronics, sails, running rigging, standing rigging. Buff/Polish of hull. Refinish teak. Inspect, repair or replace all outside canvas. Some idea of cost. Replacing sails cost me $4000.00 this year. I spent $6000.00 last year on having stuffing box replaced, new speed, depth, and wind instruments installed along with new cutlass bearing and a bottom job. None of this equates to cost in Italy. That you will have to check out yourself. Probably the best advise I can give you is to go hang out at a local marina and make friends. That way, perhaps a boat owner will guide you through all of the issues you have and be more effective than what you will find here on this site. And I am sure that you have heard this before, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it". Do a little research on your own over there and you'll probably get enough answers to your questions to help you make a decision. Good Luck.
Brother
I recommand a Hunter 28 1989 - 1993 model. The most boat for the money in the US! The go for around 25,000 US.
I recommand a Hunter 28 1989 - 1993 model. The most boat for the money in the US! The go for around 25,000 US.
Empty your wallet
Cost analysis is easy. Take ALL of your discretionary income and some of the non-discretionary income and put it in the boat account. That will be the minimum!
Cost analysis is easy. Take ALL of your discretionary income and some of the non-discretionary income and put it in the boat account. That will be the minimum!
Yacht Search
www.sailnet.com/boatsearch One way to search for a boat is to get on a site where they are for sale and plug in your parameters (price, size, location, etc) and see what pops up. Here are some good sites to try: www.yachtworld.com www.catalinaowners.com www.boatus.com www.ablboats.com www.boats.com
www.sailnet.com/boatsearch One way to search for a boat is to get on a site where they are for sale and plug in your parameters (price, size, location, etc) and see what pops up. Here are some good sites to try: www.yachtworld.com www.catalinaowners.com www.boatus.com www.ablboats.com www.boats.com
Coronado 35
I recently purchased a Coronado 35. It's a center cockpit, aft cabin, LOTS of headroom, small keel (shoal keel, but not a centerboard). My boat needs lots of "fixing up", but I've seen them around for far less than 35k, that are in good shape.
I recently purchased a Coronado 35. It's a center cockpit, aft cabin, LOTS of headroom, small keel (shoal keel, but not a centerboard). My boat needs lots of "fixing up", but I've seen them around for far less than 35k, that are in good shape.
Check the Salerno newspaper
Classified ads there will give you a good range of prices and context for what you can afford.
Classified ads there will give you a good range of prices and context for what you can afford.
Consider Import Tax
In addition to the shipping costs you need to check out the import tax for a boat to Italy or whatever port you decide to keep the boat in. I suspect you can buy a lot of boat for the cost of shipment and import tax which buys you nothing.
In addition to the shipping costs you need to check out the import tax for a boat to Italy or whatever port you decide to keep the boat in. I suspect you can buy a lot of boat for the cost of shipment and import tax which buys you nothing.
S-2 for sale
I have a S-2 26FT Center cockpit aft cabin with a Volvo Diesel.6ft.headroom ex.cond.can be shipped in a continer.$20,000 call for more info.619 436 9484
I have a S-2 26FT Center cockpit aft cabin with a Volvo Diesel.6ft.headroom ex.cond.can be shipped in a continer.$20,000 call for more info.619 436 9484
Cruising World Article
Cruising World had an article this past spring about an American who'd had his boat in the EU and had to pay the VAT in France. Good insight as to the ins/outs and how it works there. Probably applies double in Italy.
Cruising World had an article this past spring about an American who'd had his boat in the EU and had to pay the VAT in France. Good insight as to the ins/outs and how it works there. Probably applies double in Italy.
CW's article confuses rather than helps...
I would hope no one uses the CW article Paul mentions as 'guidance'. It wraps misinformation inside confusion and turns what is now a relatively simple issue into a grandiose saga full on nonsense. The author notes that he found himself the 'guinea pig of this process' with the officials, and also mentions his vessel's 'passport' was the first his boatyard had ever seen. These points are undoubtedly true because Mr. Storandt may possibly be the most ignorant non-EU skipper to ever cruise in EU waters. (It's remarkable he's been there 15 years). He also makes a big deal of obtaining an extension to deal with his VAT issue. In reality, this was nothing more than arranging a bond extension. I'll bet some visitors here have done this down in Trinidad; it's a common thing. Mr. Storandt also chose what may be the worst EU member state in which to seek VAT payment; the French have made regulatory processes into a national industry. Moreover, the process is probably different in every other French province, as France does not have a federal government and duanne procedures are 'customized' at the provincial level. And then he connects the EU's RCD and its safety standards with VAT liability? And wasn't sure what currency would be required, and so shows up with wads of AmEx checks in U.S. dollars? This fellow was emotionally exercised around this topic but clueless, had a Life Event and, because he is a talented writer (I've enjoyed his writing in the past...) sold this article to CW, who were equally clueless about its accruacy. If someone wants to read up on VAT and at least get the facts without all the handwringing, you can visit the link below and select the 'Cruising in Europe' section. I'm no tax attorney and only posted this to help other ssailors coming to Europe. Perhaps Steven will find it useful. At least it offers facts in perspective. Jack
I would hope no one uses the CW article Paul mentions as 'guidance'. It wraps misinformation inside confusion and turns what is now a relatively simple issue into a grandiose saga full on nonsense. The author notes that he found himself the 'guinea pig of this process' with the officials, and also mentions his vessel's 'passport' was the first his boatyard had ever seen. These points are undoubtedly true because Mr. Storandt may possibly be the most ignorant non-EU skipper to ever cruise in EU waters. (It's remarkable he's been there 15 years). He also makes a big deal of obtaining an extension to deal with his VAT issue. In reality, this was nothing more than arranging a bond extension. I'll bet some visitors here have done this down in Trinidad; it's a common thing. Mr. Storandt also chose what may be the worst EU member state in which to seek VAT payment; the French have made regulatory processes into a national industry. Moreover, the process is probably different in every other French province, as France does not have a federal government and duanne procedures are 'customized' at the provincial level. And then he connects the EU's RCD and its safety standards with VAT liability? And wasn't sure what currency would be required, and so shows up with wads of AmEx checks in U.S. dollars? This fellow was emotionally exercised around this topic but clueless, had a Life Event and, because he is a talented writer (I've enjoyed his writing in the past...) sold this article to CW, who were equally clueless about its accruacy. If someone wants to read up on VAT and at least get the facts without all the handwringing, you can visit the link below and select the 'Cruising in Europe' section. I'm no tax attorney and only posted this to help other ssailors coming to Europe. Perhaps Steven will find it useful. At least it offers facts in perspective. Jack
Speaking of Moody's and Cruising World articles,
A few short years ago CW ran a story about a Moody that lost its' rudder in the Atlantic. A lawsuit followed because the rudder stock was too small. The case was settled confidentially. Moody wanted it hushed up or they wouldn't pay. Check two things very closely on a Moody. First the odometer. The rudders fail at about 50 thousand miles. Second, check the rudder stock diameter. If it looks too small, it is. And Moody is still not talking last I heard.
A few short years ago CW ran a story about a Moody that lost its' rudder in the Atlantic. A lawsuit followed because the rudder stock was too small. The case was settled confidentially. Moody wanted it hushed up or they wouldn't pay. Check two things very closely on a Moody. First the odometer. The rudders fail at about 50 thousand miles. Second, check the rudder stock diameter. If it looks too small, it is. And Moody is still not talking last I heard.
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