Need 2QM15 expertise - SEIZED

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May 2, 2008
254
S2 9.2C 1980 St. Leonard (Chesapeake Bay), MD
I'm trying to see if anyone else has experience with this - Yesterday I was going to run my Yanmar 2QM15 for a few minutes, first time in 3 to 5 weeks. When it was run the last time there was nothing unusual noticed - no smoke, no unusual noise, etc. When I tried to start it the starter would not turn the engine. When I tried to use the hand crank it would not turn. It is completely seized. I tried with and without compression (using the decompression levers). I pulled the rocker arm cover - no water visible. No water visible in oil and oil is full. Pulled the #2 injector and no water present.

I'm at a loss as to how this could have happened without warning when it was running fine at the time I shut it down. Now I need to decide how to proceed. I am a fairly competent back yard mechanic but have no experience with diesel engines. I am not even sure about how to remove it from my boat (S2 9.2 Center Cockpit).
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,219
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
MAN ! Sorry to hear that, Gary..
Have ya pulled the exhaust hose? Pull that off to remove a source of water and close the raw water intake valve.. (raw water cooled, right?) It really sounds like some water got in and stuck the rings to the cylinder walls.. Most probable path is through exhaust side but could be a head gasket. Pull the both injectors and put some light lube in both cylinders and try to rock the crankshaft manually with the injectors out. and the valve cover off so you can see if the valves are stuck in the guides.. ya should be able to free it up.. be cautious with force application.. let the oil soak in a day or two if necessary and try to get it to release by turning backwards, away from whatever is jamming it. Make sure it transmission is in neutral. Make sure the anti-siphon valve in the water line to the exhaust ell is working. Good Luck!
 
May 2, 2008
254
S2 9.2C 1980 St. Leonard (Chesapeake Bay), MD
The valves will move freely (using a screwdriver in between the top of the valve and the rocker arms). I sprayed WD-40 into the valves while opening them. I also sprayed WD-40 into the air intake. I don't know if any of it got to the cylinder but I will try removing the injectors and spray some in there along with some penetrating oil. I also removed the water hose that feeds into the elbow. I'm not sure how to turn it backwards since the crank handle is only one directional (to spin off upon starting).
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Gary..

Gary it still may be water locked or even fuel locked, but the latter is more rare. If you only pulled one injector it may be the other cyl that is full. It seems odd that it ran fine, did not over heat, has oil and it seized. It could be a gear box issue too not allowing the engine to crank. I have seen 2 cycle engines cold seize from rust over a season without use but a little Marvel Mystery oil always does wonders.

Let us know what you find..
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,219
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Sometimes a socket wrench on the alternator will allow ya to move it backwards.. ya may have to tighten the belt.. Strap wrench on crankshaft pully after belt removal?
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
Gary,

Very sorry to hear about this. I hope things work out for you.

It doesn't sound like your issue, as your engine had been running, but I am really paranoid about starting my engine. My 2QM15 can be tough to start after sitting and it is my understanding that cranking the starter too long can suck water back through the exhaust into the engine. If yours is like mine it has no anti-siphon break in the exhaust, just a healthy height difference. If it won't start after cranking for no more than 5-10 seconds I usually rig a temporary line to the compression break and use that to spin the motor faster before releasing it. That usually cures my cold start problem.

Regarding unfreezing the pistons, my friend left the cylinder head off his jeep in the rain then let is sit for a few months and the pistons had rusted in the cylinder bores. He used Marvel Mystery Oil and it worked like a charm.

Be sure to pull the other injector, otherwise you can bend a rod and trash the engine if you have a cylinder full of water. At this point, you might want to just pull the head as a blown head gasket is another way to get a cylinder full. As the engine was running fine, I think that is far more likely. You just replaced the exhaust elbow right? So that is unlikely to be the source.
 
May 2, 2008
254
S2 9.2C 1980 St. Leonard (Chesapeake Bay), MD
Bob, you are right about no anti-siphon. And it had been hard to start but once started ran fine. I will pull the other injector and see what I can and then put some light oil in to let sit. If that takes care of it then my next question would be do I need to have rings, pistons and/or cylinder sleeves replaced??? But I will face that if/when that time comes. And yes, I had just replaced the elbow in the early summer.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Bob, you are right about no anti-siphon.
You & Bob may both want to seriously consider siphon breaks. A high loop does little to stop a good siphon. All it takes is for a blockage of your raw water intake, seaweed etc. and your impeller wears then has even less of a "valve" effect at stopping the siphon. Raw water pumps are not positive shut offs and water does get by them especially if worn.

I can't imagine owning a diesel engine in a sailboat without a siphon break before the injection elbow. Cheap insurance and about ten minutes to install. Cut the hose at the high point, insert siphon break, tighten hose clamps, done. I like to make my own manifold, as show below, then use a threaded siphon break that can be removed for yearly cleaning. Simple and easy..
 
Last edited:
Nov 6, 2006
10,219
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Ohhh.. forgot to mention.. if it is water, best to suck it all out before putting oil inside.. use a baster or something that can get into the injector hole to make sure the liquid is out.. if it is water, the oil could float on top and not get where ya need it.. Again, Good luck ..
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Possibilities include a hydrolock from water being 'sucked back' from the exhaust system with one (or two pistons - piston rings actually) frozen/rusted to the cylinder walls). This is 'reversable'. It is VERY IMPORTANT that you DO NOT FORCE the engine over, either by starter or by hand at this time .... or you can crack/break the piston rings.


1. SHUT OFF the FUEL SYSTEM at the tank shut off valve.
1a. Get a long handled 1/2" 'breaker bar' and appropriate metric socket. Place on the pulley bolt thats mounted to the crankshaft and GENTLY (DO NOT FORCE) attempt to SLOWLY rotate the engine clockwise. If the piston rings are frozen to the cylinder walls or the piston ring grooves are frozen and you force it, you WILL break the piston rings.

If the breaker bar freely and slowly turns the crankshaft, then look for a jammed starter with its 'bendix drive' still engaged into the flywheel - remove and repair the starter and the job is done.

2. IF the starter is free and the engine is still 'frozen': GENTLY attempt to turn the engine clockwise, you may attempt to rock the breaker bar back and forth ... but do this 'gently' and without much force.

3. If the engine wont turn: Immediately go to an automotive parts shop frequented by 'mechanics' (NAPA, etc.) and get some "Marvel Mystery Oil" - a quart will do.

4. Clean out / Vacuum out the injector bores to prevent any crud from entering the engine when you remove the injectors. remove the injector holddown bolts, the injector feed lines .... re-inspect for crud in the bore holes, then remove the injectors.

5. pour a few tablespoons of Marvel Mystery Oil down the Clean injector bore holes and into the combustion chambers.

6. Let soak for a few DAYS.

7. Attempt to gently rock the crankshaft bolt back and forth ... but with LOW pressure from the breaker bar. If it breaks free, then fine ... add more Marvel, turn the crankshaft TWO full turns, add a few tablespoons more of Marvel Mystery Oil and let soak for a day or so. If it doesnt break free, just keep adding MMO and let soak a day or so more, then repeat the 'rocking back and forth' adding MMO .... until it does break free. Patience and MMO eventually will get the piston rings free of rust.

8. After the piston rings 'break free' ..... add more MMO and 'with the breaker bar', rotate the crankshaft many times.... but do not force it if you feel a LOT of resistance.

9. Once you are SURE that there is no resistance in rotation, then add a bit more of MMO and crank the engine with the starter (dont overheat the starter).

10. Drain the engine oil and add a 50:50 mix of Marvel Mystery Oil and normal engine lube oil. Important - Suck out any MMO that you can from the combustion chambers. Reinstall the injectors, bleed the fuel system. and START the engine. (CAUTION: REmove the 'air cleaner' and its sheet metal container from the air intake of the engine. Have a thick rag standing-by in case the engine 'runs away' at INFINITE rpm - jam the balled-up RAG, not your hand!!!!! into the air intake to stall the engine). Start the engine and allow to run at IDLE SPEED ONLY. Let the engine slowly come up to operating temperature .... increase the engine speed to a 'high idle speed'. When at operating temperature (140-180° F) slowly increase the rpm to 1/2 cruise speed and keep the engine at this speed for an HOUR. It is VERY IMPORTANT that you DO NOT APPLY ANY LOAD to the engine with MMO in the crankcase ... no putting the engine in forward or reverse gear, etc. This will 're-polish' the cylinder walls, re-polish the piston ring grooves, etc.

10. Remove the engine oil/MMO mix and replace with engine oil.

To prevent future 'sieze-up' and 'suck back' of muffler water into the combustion chamber. (Get back to me on this and I will describe) You will need to modify the exhaust system so that the highest physical part of the exhaust system (between the exit of the exhaust manifold and the injection nozzle to the water lift muffler) ... is several FEET above the present elevation. This will build a large 'suction breaker loop' out of threaded black iron pipe and a new (aluminum) water injection elbow, and insulation 'lagging'. You will 'trash' the current 45 degree down-sloping Yanmar water injection elbow that is attached to your engine's exhaust manifold ... if your waterline is at or near the SAME elevation of the present Yanmar injection elbow ... you will have to build a 'dry stack' bewteen the engine and the water lift muffler to prevent future 'water suck back'.

The use of MMO to un-seize a frozen engine is the first attempt to remedy the problem. It doesnt require that a mechanic totally disassemble the engine and 'replace everything in sight'. 99 times out of 100 you can 'free-up' the engine with MMO. The caution here is that MMO is combustible so you have to remove as much as possible before you actually start the engine or you risk a 'runaway' (engine rapidly building to INFINITE rpm followed by loud crashing noises, engine parts coming through the side walls of the engine and maybe going though the hull and human bodies parts nearby .... keep that rag standing by when you attempt to start and the engine 'runsaway'. Keep that RAG nearby !!!!

:)
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,353
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
STOP for a second

You wrote: When I tried to start it the starter would not turn the engine.

Have you checked the fuse between the starter button or switch and the starter solenoid?

Upon reading your post and all the answers, it is unclear to me why your first thought would be to pull the engine.

If the starter doesn't turn over, it may NOT be engine problems. Think electrical...

Or maybe you're way past this point already.
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
Stu

You wrote: When I tried to start it the starter would not turn the engine.

Have you checked the fuse between the starter button or switch and the starter solenoid?

Upon reading your post and all the answers, it is unclear to me why your first thought would be to pull the engine.

If the starter doesn't turn over, it may NOT be engine problems. Think electrical...

Or maybe you're way past this point already.
He couldn't spin it with the hand starter crank with the pressure relief open.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
He couldn't spin it with the hand starter crank with the pressure relief open.

It could be as a very remove possibility - that the solenoid bendix drive on the starter is partly still engaged into the flywheel teeth ... not engaged IN the teeth but held on the side/top of the teeth so that the bendix is applying force TO the flywheel (prony-brake) and is preventing the rotation. You can rule this out by engaging the started and carefully listening for the movement of the bendix .... but you have to KNOW what a bendix sounds like when it engages. Otherwise, one has to remove the starter .... and if it freely comes loose from the 'bell housing', it wasnt the problem.
 
May 2, 2008
254
S2 9.2C 1980 St. Leonard (Chesapeake Bay), MD
I just got back from the boat. I could not remove the #1 injector so poured penetrating oil around the base of it. Hopefully that will loosen it up otherwise I will have to start removing more things. I'm beginning to think that I might be better off to pull the head. As for the suggestion about the starter bendix being engaged, I don't think so. When I hit the starter button the couple of times before realizing it was a mechanical problem, it did make the normal 'clunk' sound when the bendix engages.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Before you start taking things apart see if you can get a wrench on the crankshaft belt pulley and turn the engine backwards a little bit. just a few degrees, if the starter pinon is jambed on the ring gear that will release it.
 
May 2, 2008
254
S2 9.2C 1980 St. Leonard (Chesapeake Bay), MD
I tried the wrench on the crank pulley in both directions. It did not budge.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Make certain that the transmission is in neutral and pull the starter next. I can't imagine that it seized after you had been running it if it had plenty of oil.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
You & Bob may both want to seriously consider siphon breaks. A high loop does little to stop a good siphon. All it takes is for a blockage of your raw water intake, seaweed etc. and your impeller wears then has even less of a "valve" effect at stopping the siphon. Raw water pumps are not positive shut offs and water does get by them especially if worn.

I can't imagine owning a diesel engine in a sailboat without a siphon break before the injection elbow. Cheap insurance and about ten minutes to install. Cut the hose at the high point, insert siphon break, tighten hose clamps, done. I like to make my own manifold, as show below, then use a threaded siphon break that can be removed for yearly cleaning. Simple and easy..
Where did you get that plastic syphon break? And what name brand is it? I have a bronze elbow but the Scot Plastic syphon break broke. I haven't been able to find one that fits so far. On your C30 did you cut a hole in the plywood under the cabinet and mount it in there?
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
While this may be rare on sailboat diesels sucking in saltwater it happens all the time on gas powerboats and you don't have a whole lot of time
 
May 24, 2004
470
Hunter 33.5 Portsmouth, RI
Hermit, The plastic vacuum break that on my H-33.5 boat (Yanmar 2GM20(f) engine), is: Scott Marine #VB-18. It is available at J.T.'s Chandlery in Newport, RI. Probably available in many other places.

Dick
S/V Puffin
H-33.5
 
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