near dismasting - permanent problem?

[John]

Several months ago I had my standing rigging replaced. Yesterday, my boat partner was out sailing and the lower shrouds on the starboard side pulled through the base of the spreader. Fortunately, there was not much wind so the mast did not buckle. However, when I got to the boat I saw that it was slightly bent at the point where the lower shrouds attach. This would be natural since the port shrouds would hold their tension. Most, but not all, of this bend went away when I relieved tension on the port lower shrouds. If I am able to straighten out the mast when I reattach the lower shrouds on both sides, do you think there is no permanent damage?

On the cause of the shrouds pulling through - Luckily I saved the old shrouds. The top fitting is cup shaped and sits in a depressed hole at the base of the spreader. What the rigger (West Marine) did was use a slightly smaller (about 1/16" or slightly less) fitting. I will be seeing them this morning.

 

[Steve Dion]

I suggest that you contact a surveyor immediately. If this becomes a WM problem you need to go after them. If you end up needing a new spar, LeFiell in Santa Fe Springs can probably help you out.

 

[CharlieCobra]

Agreed, once the mast has been compressed out of column, it can come down easier. Time for WM to step to the plate...

 

[Chuckbear]

I didn't know West Marine did rigging. You learn something new every day. If there is indeed damage, you need to document it through a rigging surveyor, especially to be sure the mast has not been stressed too much. With the survey report in hand you can go after whoever is responsible. At the very least it will give you piece of mind to know there is not a more serious problem. Chuck

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Hard to follow your description ...

Maybe it's just me because I am not familiar with your Catalina, but where did the lower shroud pull out? On our boat the lower shroud is attached to the mast just below the spreader as the photo shows. Did you mean to say the shroud pulled out at the base of the chainplate? If you are looking at the mast and see a sweeping curve because the port shroud is pulling the middle of the mast, I would guess that you have no damage to the mast because the aluminum can take the flexing. However, if you are seeing a crease in the aluminum where the bend is, then you would have a problem. In earlier posts, you indicated rot inside your boat at the bulkhead where the chain plate attaches. Could the shroud have pulled out due to a structural problem? On the other hand, you seem to indicate that the lower shroud is attached to the base of the spreader (I'm not familiar with this type of attachment). I woudl guess that it is critical to have the right size fittings for this to work, and if WM substituted the wrong size, they have a problem. I have a hard time imagining a professional rigger making a substitution like that.

 

[sailaway78]

Get a surveyor

Find a surveyor who is familiar with not only rigging but your particular boat. If your going to have any success with WM taking care of this, they are NOT going to take your word. And they will also more than likely have someone on their payroll look at it. If he used the wrong size fittings, and works for WM, then they should bite the bullet, and take care of any and all damages. I agree with Scott, that if there is no crease or deformity in the aluminum, the mast should be OK. But don't take my opinion for this. FIND A GOOD SURVEYOR

 

[catsailor]

Is the mast still bent with ALL tention off?

At dock, with JUST enough to keep it from falling over? In other words, did the mast actually take any permanent bend?

If yes, probably a new stick. If no, you probably did not actually take the material to its elastic limit and there should be no concern. Any dent would also condemn it.

I suspect you will need more than one qualified opinion, if you feel this is going to get into $$.

 

[John]

photos plus...

Here are two photos. The one of the mast isn't that clear, but look at the spare halyard. It is attached at the center of the mast on top and goes to the center at the bottom. You can see how the middle is at the side of the mast. There was no wind and the halyard is pulled taut, so it is in a more or less straight line. I did not see any crease, but it's definitely bent.

I think I could probably bend it back in column by tightening the starboard lower shrouds more than the port ones, but it doesn't seem to me that this is a good idea to do permanently.

The second photo is of the fittings. You can see that there is a ring that slides up over the cone shaped fitting (with the base of the cone at the end). See how one fitting the ring slides up to where it is flush with the base of the cone while in the other - the new one - it slides up past there. In other words, rather than the solid stainless steel piece - like a plug, really - holding the shroud, it's just that cone shaped washer that's holding it.

And to clarify, yes, this is the top end of the shroud, and it passes through what looks like a cast aluminum piece on the end of the spreader right next to the mast.

Monday WM's riggers are in there and I'll talk with them and take it from there. I guess if there is any question the best thing is to let the insurance handle it and they can fight with WM if they like.

 

[Chuckbear]

John, I can bend my mast like a snake by adjusting the rigging. Only someone on site and doing a close up inspection can determine if there is or is not an issue. Chuck

 

[Snotter]

A couple of years ago I replaced all the lower shrouds on my old Pearson 30. I ordered a set from West Marine rigging. They completely screwed the order up. When I called to discuss their mistake, it became very apparent that the person who did my rigging had little experience. Thankfully, they did take the rigging back and paid my in full (shipping included). I then bought wire elsewhere and some new cones for my existing sta-lok terminals. I did one wire at a time--the mast still standing--cut the wires to match the old and reused the old sta-loks. It was a breeze and much less of a hassle then dealing with a bunch of...

 

[John]

WM

A couple of years ago I replaced all the lower shrouds on my old Pearson 30. I ordered a set from West Marine rigging. They completely screwed the order up. When I called to discuss their mistake, it became very apparent that the person who did my rigging had little experience. Thankfully, they did take the rigging back and paid my in full (shipping included). I then bought wire elsewhere and some new cones for my existing sta-lok terminals. I did one wire at a time--the mast still standing--cut the wires to match the old and reused the old sta-loks. It was a breeze and much less of a hassle then dealing with a bunch of...

Yeah, the rigger at WM was pretty young, but claimed he had lots of experience. In fact, he seemed a little arrogant to me. On the other hand,it served my interests as he based his original estimate on the assumption that it was all 3/16 wire, whereas the upper shrouds are 1/4". I insisted he go by his original estimate, which turned out to be about $1,000 less.

Anyway, I'll let you know what WM says on Monday.
John

 

[sfgary]

Good luck on monday. I have delt with the KIDS in WM's rig shop. I had all my standing rigging done at Svensens 2 years ago and they did a great job. I'm sure Doug in the rig shop could give you some good info about the condition of your mast. Again good luck and keep us posted. Gary

 

[Benny]

If the part was adequate and correctly installed and no one want's to take responsibility look towards your insurance coverage to take care of that accidental ocurrence. A failure that happens at sea is considered an accident.

 

[Bad Obsession]

That is very scary stuff. I have heard a few instances of WM stuff not working right and I have seen one first hand as of late. Kind of makes you wonder what is going on with the company.

I saw a splice that they did for an anchor rode come out and the person lost their anchor because of it. The spice was inadequate at best. It is like they have been using inexperienced people who don't care about the quality of their work.

WM should bite the bullet on this and fix what they caused.

 

[Roger Long]

Re: photos plus...

I doubt that you have damaged your mast. In any event, you can not assess it's condition with any tension on the other rigging. The photo you posted of the halyard running up it doesn't look the least bit alarming unless everything else is completely slack. Even then, it can probably tuned straight. Only a very experienced surveyor with special rig experiene can tell you for sure. WM should at least pay for that as a first step.

There was a great article in "Yachting" in the 60's about a 40 ish foot racing boat that rolled her spinnaker pole into the water. It came back on the stay and the compression strain put a huge bend in the mast, we're talking feet out of line here. They set up a strut from another pole and powerful tackles to push the mast back in line sufficiently to finish the race.

The mast was then removed and lashed down and a crane pulled up on the end to straighten it. The was an incredible photo of the mast bent in the neighborhood of 10 feet out of line to remove the set.

You had no where near these kinds of strains and aluminum sticks are pretty limber and forgiving. Please let us know how it comes out but I'll be surprised if you need anything more than a full new set of rigging from a competent shop.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

John, not to be too critical ...

Whose assumption was it that the shrouds were 3/16" when they were really 1/4"? How is that mistake made by either you or the rigger? Personally, if I had an estimate based on one size rigging when the need was actually for another size, I would never have badgered anybody into eating the difference in cost. If there was a question of ethics involved (selling you on one price to get the business and then changing the estimate) then I would go somewhere else to at least get a competing price. It almost sounds like you cheated the rigger out of the fair price for the wire that you needed. Anybody who is willing to be cheated like that is bound to make a mistake like the one you may have ended up with. It almost appears to me that you could have expected a problem merely because of the events leading to the job. In my mind, you never get anything good by dealing with the lowest common denominator and then working them to your advantage on price. Now that you have already worked WM for $1,000 on the rigging wire, good luck trying to get any more from them. I'm not surprised you have 1/4" rigging wire ... our 27' Starwind has 7/32". There is a big diffence between 3/16" and 1/4".

About the mast ... it doesn't look like there is any problem. It looks like you still have an unbalanced rig so the sweeping bend that you see would be natural. Not only do you have the lower shroud on port side pulling the middle of the mast, but you have the upper sroud on stbd side compressing the spreader which puts additional bend in the middle of the mast.

 

[sailingdog]

I would point out that any rigger that makes an estimate and mistakes 1/4" for 3/16" rigging should automatically raise warning flags... that's a pretty basic error... and either they didn't look at your rigging very thoroughly, which is a warning sign IMHO, or they didn't recognize what they were seeing, which is another indicator of a lack of skill or care in their service.

 

[Chuckbear]

Can someone explain this to me? Does West Marine, the discount supply store, have a rigging service that comes to your boat, does a rigging inspection and replaces needed rigging? I guess I have missed this over the years of dealing with them. Chuck

 

[sailingdog]

The do have a services department in some of their larger stores... the smaller stores don't offer this as a service...but WM has rigging, electronics and plumbing installation services IIRC.... but only out of their biggest stores.

BTW, I would seriously hesitate to call WM a discount store...

Can someone explain this to me? Does West Marine, the discount supply store, have a rigging service that comes to your boat, does a rigging inspection and replaces needed rigging? I guess I have missed this over the years of dealing with them. Chuck

 

[Chuckbear]

Thanks SD, I have never seen them in any of the stores I have dealt with. You are right about the discount store. Chuck