Really? That's awesome! I'd been told it's really aimed at US waters. Got a link?
dj
Navigation: Old School vs New School
- Thread starter Phil Herring
- Start date
dj
LOl makes me think.
On a trip to Mexico a few years ago, the 41 footer i was aboard had a good set up, BUT, had zero info on north shore of Yucatan- he was headed for Quintana Roo !!. We were 100 miles off, and had just torn a sail. ZERO input from his aboard instruments. navigated to in between the rocks of the entrance to Progreso, Yucatan, with my phone with Inavx .
On a trip to Mexico a few years ago, the 41 footer i was aboard had a good set up, BUT, had zero info on north shore of Yucatan- he was headed for Quintana Roo !!. We were 100 miles off, and had just torn a sail. ZERO input from his aboard instruments. navigated to in between the rocks of the entrance to Progreso, Yucatan, with my phone with Inavx .
ALWAYS have up to date paper aboard- silly to not- electronics can get blown in a lightning strike, and then you are screwed
Basic navigation courses are a good idea for newbs, I think. I suspect most still revolve around basic paper chart mechanics. All the basis and tools of piloting still hold with echarts: bearings, navy buoys, hazards, currents etc.
Even after years of practice, you’ll never reach the surety of gps which in my east coast is like 10 feet.
The issue with most is backup. For many older sailors, electronic charting, like computers, can be daunting.
Younger sailors, newbs, in comparison, are IT techs. They’ll choose electronic back ups and feel safe. The basic courses will likely give them good framework, but they won’t use the tools enough to gain the needed experience.
Another sailor might feel safer with familiar paper and tools as opposed to an iPad addition that trips them up with Problems someone else won’t experience.
The methods are subjective to what makes each feel safe.
Leased a sailboat in 1990 from a client. She took the loran out and required me to take nav lessons. Did it at the NY planetarium. First trip from Oyster Bay to port Jefferson Harbor, we hit heavy fog and used dead (ded?) reckoning to navigate to the marker just outside the harbor. Hit the can! Very precise and still keep the tools of paper chart navigation, just don't have any paper charts left. My chart book for the Hudson River just disintegrated into tiny pieces. 12 yrs old but they were good for overview that you do not get with GPS. The chart plotter has not been turned on but once. Can't see it from the tiller and too complicated for day sailing. If I can't see where I am going I do not go. Look at weather to see if my day may have a no see time. If so I don't go.
True if the older sailor has little experience with the electronics.
Agree to a point. The challenge for young and old is to know the limits of the systems and to be able to use them.
This can occur through experiential activity, or through the experience of others. And then even the professionals can make mistakes. Some are costly.
Examine the event of, Team Vestas Windduring the Volvo Ocean Race in 2014... Electronic charts and grounding - a cautionary tale
Experienced sailors run around on a reef in the middle of the ocean. Spoiled their day.
It is not about the tools it is about knowing how to use the tools. It is about knowing the limits of the tools
Before I heard this story, I had it almost happen to me. Plotted a long course on the laptop during a planning session. Before I d/l'ed it to the GPS, I took the time to zoom in and check the route. Right in the middle was a hump with only 3 feet of water over it. Would have been interesting to run over that with a 4 foot keel.
Baby Boomers gave the world the moon landing, personal computers and the World Wide Web.
I have embraced technology as it has come along. I once told an employer, as I was drafting with paper and pencil, if he didn't go with CAD, he wouldn't be in business 15 years later. I retired, 20 years later, working in a Building Information Modeling environment.
I've used maps, compasses and a watch since the Boy Scouts. I bought a first generation Magellan GPS device, and a second generation, on the "Oh, this is a niffty gadget". I always looked at them as a augmentation to my back county navigation, a verifyer, if you will.
I approach sailing the same way. While sailing my local area, sight of land and landmarks do me well. I use my laptop with OpenCPN mostly to make decisions as to where I want to make a tack to get to my given destination. Otherwise, it is used to keep me in the good habit of being on the correct side of shoal marking buoys. It's high water now - low water can mean my keel.
If the only things left to me were a chart, a compass and a watch, I would feel confident in my ability to safely sail my boat. In my opinion, the best navigation technology to come along is binoculars with a built-in compass.
I have embraced technology as it has come along. I once told an employer, as I was drafting with paper and pencil, if he didn't go with CAD, he wouldn't be in business 15 years later. I retired, 20 years later, working in a Building Information Modeling environment.
I've used maps, compasses and a watch since the Boy Scouts. I bought a first generation Magellan GPS device, and a second generation, on the "Oh, this is a niffty gadget". I always looked at them as a augmentation to my back county navigation, a verifyer, if you will.
I approach sailing the same way. While sailing my local area, sight of land and landmarks do me well. I use my laptop with OpenCPN mostly to make decisions as to where I want to make a tack to get to my given destination. Otherwise, it is used to keep me in the good habit of being on the correct side of shoal marking buoys. It's high water now - low water can mean my keel.
If the only things left to me were a chart, a compass and a watch, I would feel confident in my ability to safely sail my boat. In my opinion, the best navigation technology to come along is binoculars with a built-in compass.
Grounding forensics: These are fun, as long as you aren't the ground-er. This was just 2 days ago and unfolded nearly in front of us.
The facts: Afternoon, light Southerly winds (important component I think), beautiful day on the Fox Island Thoroughfare in Penobscot Bay.
The GRACE BAILEY is 80+' long. She sails week long charters of 'dudes' all season. This reach along the thoroughfare is a milk run for the captains. If you can sail your charter through the Fox's, it's a 10. Like most of these schooners, the GRACE is engineless. Her yawl boat is tied to the stern for power when needed, the 1 st mate is lounging in the yawl boat, ready to fire up the diesel.
Despite the light winds, a lumbering old square rigger, the captain (yellow shirt at the wheel), had her under sail. The 'dudes' (local derogatory term for charters) were getting their cup full of sailing. Everyone appears relaxed by THE soothing motion and pace as they enjoy the surroundings, not unaware that to most eyes (and lens), they are the spectacle to watch. Pride.
The tide is falling,...(also important-ALWAYS IMPORTANT ON THE COAST OF MAINE).
Later, in the community center on the island, I get my first data on my phone in days. A Facebook post comes into my feed. It's from the group of locals that live on the island (of which I am a member). The FB post - with a photo, reads:
"Cattle boat on the rocks at the end of the dumplings"
Cattle boat,...that's harsh. Derogatory local banter on tourists in mid August is to be expected, I guess, anywhere in NE.
What I could tell from the photo: First, she'd been aground for some time. Her waterline at the bow is nearly 2 feet out of the water. More importantly though, you can see the rocks - now awash - would have been below water at the time of the grounding. The benign conditions, no breaking waves, would have made the rocks invisible to the eye. On deck, all shoulders appear slumped. Pride is gone.
I know this stretch of water well. In fact I sail it quite often in similar conditions. More often that not, you enjoy a close reach where my first photo was taken. About a mile beyond, your course becomes more weatherly. You nearly always are pinched up at the end and wondering if you may have to tack once more, to clear the hazards.
From my phone navionics app: While the schooner wasn't visible from my location at the time, it appears from the FB photo, to be where I placed a black star at the end of the dotted line and arrow, which I presume to be their course.
I know from experience when those rocks are under water it appears wide open between the can and the island (yellow) that never goes below HW.
Inconceivable, right? Wrong! Having experienced more than my share self induced groundings over the years, I don't criticize the captains. Accidents happen, period.
A little online researched uncovered some info. Many of these old schooner operators prefer old school methods. In fact I found a couple lines that seem to support the owner of this fleet does not equip the boats with any electronics. No radar, no GPS plotters. I get that. They sail the same routes generally, year after year.
I make no criticism of the lack of GPS or radar (I'm happy without radar). GPS or not, boats go aground all the time on the coast of Maine, charts in laps or screens showing the approaching grounding, it's all the same. Some ones not paying attention
My suspicion of what may have caused the grounding: I put a second - solid - arrow on the chart. Often when pinching up to clear the hazards, I'll sail this arrow. It's safe, about a quarter of a mile of deep water between the nun and the hazards, and allows you to ride your port tack another 2 miles in safe water. A beautiful stretch of water.
Perhaps the captain had this in mind and mistook the open water (rocks covered at the time) for this safe passage?
She floated off safely hours later on the rising tide. In the 'old school' days, these grounding mostly went unreported. Pride was and is protected by captains at all costs. But times have changed. There's a camera in every passing boat and the accident could be online in seconds.
The facts: Afternoon, light Southerly winds (important component I think), beautiful day on the Fox Island Thoroughfare in Penobscot Bay.
The GRACE BAILEY is 80+' long. She sails week long charters of 'dudes' all season. This reach along the thoroughfare is a milk run for the captains. If you can sail your charter through the Fox's, it's a 10. Like most of these schooners, the GRACE is engineless. Her yawl boat is tied to the stern for power when needed, the 1 st mate is lounging in the yawl boat, ready to fire up the diesel.
Despite the light winds, a lumbering old square rigger, the captain (yellow shirt at the wheel), had her under sail. The 'dudes' (local derogatory term for charters) were getting their cup full of sailing. Everyone appears relaxed by THE soothing motion and pace as they enjoy the surroundings, not unaware that to most eyes (and lens), they are the spectacle to watch. Pride.
The tide is falling,...(also important-ALWAYS IMPORTANT ON THE COAST OF MAINE).
Later, in the community center on the island, I get my first data on my phone in days. A Facebook post comes into my feed. It's from the group of locals that live on the island (of which I am a member). The FB post - with a photo, reads:
"Cattle boat on the rocks at the end of the dumplings"
Cattle boat,...that's harsh. Derogatory local banter on tourists in mid August is to be expected, I guess, anywhere in NE.
What I could tell from the photo: First, she'd been aground for some time. Her waterline at the bow is nearly 2 feet out of the water. More importantly though, you can see the rocks - now awash - would have been below water at the time of the grounding. The benign conditions, no breaking waves, would have made the rocks invisible to the eye. On deck, all shoulders appear slumped. Pride is gone.
I know this stretch of water well. In fact I sail it quite often in similar conditions. More often that not, you enjoy a close reach where my first photo was taken. About a mile beyond, your course becomes more weatherly. You nearly always are pinched up at the end and wondering if you may have to tack once more, to clear the hazards.
From my phone navionics app: While the schooner wasn't visible from my location at the time, it appears from the FB photo, to be where I placed a black star at the end of the dotted line and arrow, which I presume to be their course.
I know from experience when those rocks are under water it appears wide open between the can and the island (yellow) that never goes below HW.
Inconceivable, right? Wrong! Having experienced more than my share self induced groundings over the years, I don't criticize the captains. Accidents happen, period.
A little online researched uncovered some info. Many of these old schooner operators prefer old school methods. In fact I found a couple lines that seem to support the owner of this fleet does not equip the boats with any electronics. No radar, no GPS plotters. I get that. They sail the same routes generally, year after year.
I make no criticism of the lack of GPS or radar (I'm happy without radar). GPS or not, boats go aground all the time on the coast of Maine, charts in laps or screens showing the approaching grounding, it's all the same. Some ones not paying attention
My suspicion of what may have caused the grounding: I put a second - solid - arrow on the chart. Often when pinching up to clear the hazards, I'll sail this arrow. It's safe, about a quarter of a mile of deep water between the nun and the hazards, and allows you to ride your port tack another 2 miles in safe water. A beautiful stretch of water.
Perhaps the captain had this in mind and mistook the open water (rocks covered at the time) for this safe passage?
She floated off safely hours later on the rising tide. In the 'old school' days, these grounding mostly went unreported. Pride was and is protected by captains at all costs. But times have changed. There's a camera in every passing boat and the accident could be online in seconds.
Ha! Thanks to my own post, I think I'm wrong on my supposition. In fact, that is the outer nun in the FB photo (not mine even though my name is one it).
That being said, perhaps they were victims of the current. It would have been flowing out and carried them out of the safe 'quarter mile' between the hazards. If they had a CP and GPS, and someone was looking at it, that would have shown them riding toward the rocks. Were they tacking bearings and plotting their location on the paper chart?
What do you think happened?
That being said, perhaps they were victims of the current. It would have been flowing out and carried them out of the safe 'quarter mile' between the hazards. If they had a CP and GPS, and someone was looking at it, that would have shown them riding toward the rocks. Were they tacking bearings and plotting their location on the paper chart?
What do you think happened?
The schooner was in fact on the rocks, lower left- purple marker, on this screen shot.
I put a large dotted arrow as to current direction that would have been flowing out (I think), of the thoroughfare.
Slow sailing schooner, current drift, maybe it was stronger than the navigator/captain was using on the paper chart. Depth sounder would give you some warning as the bar is quite long, but I don't think they have one.
I put a large dotted arrow as to current direction that would have been flowing out (I think), of the thoroughfare.
Slow sailing schooner, current drift, maybe it was stronger than the navigator/captain was using on the paper chart. Depth sounder would give you some warning as the bar is quite long, but I don't think they have one.
The United States Naval Academy returned to teaching Celestial Navigation.
I wonder why?
I have a big format printer, 36" wide.
I printed big charts for Planning with friends. Two key charts on the boat. A Booklet of charts too.
Easier than passing around an iPad, plus you can mark on them for historic reasons.
Fun planning over beers and talk of high seas adventures.
Jim...
PS: Paper charts don't require power.
I wonder why?
I have a big format printer, 36" wide.
I printed big charts for Planning with friends. Two key charts on the boat. A Booklet of charts too.
Easier than passing around an iPad, plus you can mark on them for historic reasons.
Fun planning over beers and talk of high seas adventures.
Jim...
PS: Paper charts don't require power.
So, forgive if I’m off here. I don’t see how this incident says anything about plotters or other e-navigation aids. The schooner is out of the clearly-marked channel, on the wrong side of “RRR.” How could the skipper miss that the boat was making way for the wrong side of the nun? Was he trying to shoot the gap? The yawl boat could have been deployed to correct the course if due to drift. At this point in full visibility of the ATONs, what more could a chartplotter have done except to “guide” the boat through an unmarked “pass?” Isn’t that where “local knowledge” is supposed to come into play? 
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In case of cyber attacks, or other disruption, of GPS data during hostilities. Someone might decide to turn it off to interfere with cruise missiles, etc. The guys in the ships will still need to know where they are, etc.