My solution for winch override. Yours?
- Thread starter stickinthemud57
- Start date
My Stiletto 27 had a 2:1 tackle on the jib and no winch. In a breeze you had to pinch up to tighten the sheet, and above 10 knots you switched down to a smaller jib. Some owners added winches, which included building a substantial platform, as there is no combing or bulkhead in the area.
As I understand it, you reach between the cam cleat and the winch to remove/add wraps? I can see that. Something to remember, on your boat and `00% on larger boats, is that you NEVER want you fingers that close to a winch, in that location, in that position. Should you loose your balance and the wind gusts you could find your fingers drawn into the winch, smashed under the sheet. On a larger boat that would be a trip to the ED. It never occurred to anyone on this thread that you would actually reach into that space. Ingrained habit to avoid. I would not do that on my F-24, I've been sailing a lot ot boats for a lot of years. Be careful. Better yet, loose just the fairlead. The rest is good. I'd move the cleat lower, I think, and probably farther away, but play with it.
Thanks for the advice. I am actively working on a way to have the flexibility of the swivelling cleats without the necessity of reaching into the "danger zone".
I like the idea. My solution was on the bulkhead, but I can see the merit. You cannot re-cleat the bulkhead position without walking over there. On the other hand, you can't cleat under high load without pulling the sheet toward you, which you can't if there is no purchase. In lighter winds, 2:1 jib sheets would be handy.
I had an idea while I was composing my previous message. If instead of a closed fairlead I had an open-topped guide (essential two posts) and I took the keeper off the cleat, then the sheet could be uncleated and the winch cleared in one motion (you know, like normal people do). The only downside is that if a jib sheet got away from me the next stop point would be the block, but that would be acceptable, and I might even utilize some tie-down loops that are currently installed on the bulkhead.
Food for Thought: Why are you looking for swiveling solution? Something fixed coming off the winch is simpler, and more predictable for location when reaching to ease.
I'm not really "looking" for a swivelling solution. It's already there. The swivelling cleats make single-handing much easier as they can be tensioned (in light breezes) from a broader angle - pretty much anywhere in the cockpit. Not so with the standard arrangement.
The location of the sheets vary by maybe a few inches. I have yet to reach for one and miss it.
If this evolves to a next-generation, please share it. I think it is interesting.
My thought, is that ideally, it would be a little farther from the winch and have only a single open top fairlead. I really like to be able to change wraps quickly.
In fact, you can ease the bulkhead mount cam cleat from any angle as well. But you do have to walk over to it to re-cleat. If there is a good breeze you will need to do that anyway, but in light winds it is an extra thing. Obviously, I think, in light winds a 2:1 sheet, like a dinghy or Stiletto27, would be better.
My thought, is that ideally, it would be a little farther from the winch and have only a single open top fairlead. I really like to be able to change wraps quickly.
In fact, you can ease the bulkhead mount cam cleat from any angle as well. But you do have to walk over to it to re-cleat. If there is a good breeze you will need to do that anyway, but in light winds it is an extra thing. Obviously, I think, in light winds a 2:1 sheet, like a dinghy or Stiletto27, would be better.
I am not sure how to tie the icicle to a line under tension because the illustration in the link involves passing a loop over the end of the pole but in this situation, the pole is the sheet and does not have an "end"....
Restating the question, ‘how do you solve a winch override?
I take a second line and tie an icicle hitch or wrap knot on the sheet between the winch and jib sheet block.
Icicle Hitch (Loop Method)
Very secure slide-and-grip knot, provides resistance in one direction.www.animatedknots.com
I have a Dacron endless loop strop that I use for a prusik to climb the mast that I keep in the cockpit locker, and it is an easy thing to wrap around any line, tucking through the center.
Rock Climbing: How to Tie a Prusik Knot - YouTube
I would then use the tail of another line tied to the prusik for a secondary tension line.
@stickinthemud57 commented that he did not have another winch in line behind his winches. The Prusik can be placed anywhere between the winch and the clew. Then run the secondary line back around the pulpit stanchion as a turning point and across the cabin to the windward winch.
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I will be glad to share any changes to the current cleat arrangement.
I could maybe get the cleat an inch or so further from the winch, but I see no advantage to be derived. Clearing the winch is easy - after popping the sheet, I just take it loosely between the forefinger and thumb and pull up. I've sailed this rig single-handed more than 300 times and at no point have my fingers even been drawn toward, much less into, the winch. That said, I don't take the potential danger lightly, especially for my crewmembers. Also, I play drums in a hobby band, and keeping my fingers attached to my hand is a priority.
Looking at photos of the 2:1 jib sheet set-up I think I will pass. It's a pretty complicated arrangement to begin with, and having a rig that doubles the amount of sheet that needs to be handled and does not work across the broad range of lake winds, which can change significantly, in mere seconds is not a viable solution for me. Thanks for introducing me to the concept, all the same.
A Prusik or a klemheist are easy to tie onto a taught line. You just need a loop line And then wrap it around the taught line. Depending on how you wrap it, it can be a Prusik or a Klemheist. I keep a couple of loop lines with my mast climbing gear as they can be very useful as a backup (wrapped into another halyard, etc.).
Then you need to another line to the Prusik, and run it to another winch so it takes the weight off your wrapped sheet. If you don’t have a winch behind the wrapped one, then you need to a block behind the wrapped winch, again so you can take the tension off the wrapped sheet. Then run the line to a forward winch (I was able to get to the cabin top winch).
Greg
OK, I think I have this little issue with the swivelling cleats sorted out. The lighting was a little flat when I took this photo, so let me explain. The keeper at the cam cleat has been removed. The fairlead nearest the winch has been removed and has been replaced with a U-shaped plastic block. This allows the sheet to pull free of the cleat assembly in one single motion without getting one's fingers anywhere near the winch and allows the swivel cleat to function properly.
It worked fine in sea trials yesterday. Not surprisingly, the process of releasing the sheet and clearing the winch happens much more quickly that with the other winch which has not yet been modified. It does require a modicum of attention to be sure the sheet is in the U, but that did not prove problematic. Thanks to those who nudged me into coming up with a safer and quicker way to release a loaded jib sheet. Thanks to me for not giving up on my swivelling cleats.
My plan is to have a friend machine a couple of these U-shaped peices out of aluminum.
It worked fine in sea trials yesterday. Not surprisingly, the process of releasing the sheet and clearing the winch happens much more quickly that with the other winch which has not yet been modified. It does require a modicum of attention to be sure the sheet is in the U, but that did not prove problematic. Thanks to those who nudged me into coming up with a safer and quicker way to release a loaded jib sheet. Thanks to me for not giving up on my swivelling cleats.
My plan is to have a friend machine a couple of these U-shaped peices out of aluminum.
Attachments
Thanks for the comments and again to all who nudged me gently to address the downside to the former arrangement. As a married man I should know that just because something is not a problem to me that does not mean it is not a problem.
I'll post any further changes or observations.
I'll post any further changes or observations.
I like it! I think it is an elegant application and I'm a little surprised the sailing hardware makers haven't already made a part like this. In fact, looking at the angle the sheet comes off the winch in thinwater's application (Post 7), which I don't really like, it looks like a good application for improving that angle!
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... As a married man I should know that just because something is not a problem to me that does not mean it is not a problem.
/QUOTE]
Yeah, I suppose that is open to a number of interpretations. It's just that I have been surprised on more than one occasion to find myself the victim of my wife's ire for things I thought would be fine. Live and learn. In the case of my cleat arrangement, I had gotten so used to it so did not see a problem until the good folks here and my racing crew said otherwise.
Often, if asked why I did something that is seen as a mistake, no matter how minor, and there is arguably another solution or path, I respond "because I'm an idiot." It really shortens the discussion. And there is probably an element of truth in it!