My solution for winch override. Yours?

[stickinthemud57]

After wrestling with jib sheet fouling the winch (aka override), I have found a solution that works for me.

Condensed version: Elevate the forward end of the winch. See photos.

Longer version:

When I first started sailing this boat I did not use the winches. Even when I started racing, my crew's timing was good enough that they were rarely used. Until, that is, we couldn't release a jib sheet because of the excess tension it was under and got ourselves disqualified in a race. I decided then we needed to use the winches as a matter of habit.

We immediately ran into problems with the winches fouling. Nothing I could do seemed to be working. Nothing suggested online seemed viable for my situation. I was entertaining the idea of mounting a fairlead at the base of the winch to control the angle of the sheet as it entered the winch. Then my sailing coach/guru suggested using slanted shims under the winches, and sent me some sketches showing how and why that might help. He even made some wood wedges for testing purposes, and all it cost me was a bottle of Fireball! 8)

The test went well, and I installed and tested the final product made from HDPE today. Absolute success. No fouling whatsoever.

I was fortunate that I had the spacers made and all my "guru" had to do was grind them into wedges. He has this massive machine shop. Rebuilding an Aston Martin. that kind of stuff. No matter. There are lot's of ways to skin that cat.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I like that solution. Interesting that the boat builder didn’t design it that way. Harken recommends that the sheet come into the winch from 8 degrees below horizontal; I think other manufacturers are similar. It looks like your shims get to just about that, so it makes sense that the wrap should work well now.

I don’t like the fairleads on the output side of the winch though. When I tack I want to be able to throw those off as the jib luffs so there’s no extra friction, and the new sheet can come in quickly. It seems like the fairleads would force you to keep the wraps on for extra time and slow that part of the process down.

 

[stickinthemud57]

I like that solution. Interesting that the boat builder didn’t design it that way. Harken recommends that the sheet come into the winch from 8 degrees below horizontal; I think other manufacturers are similar. It looks like your shims get to just about that, so it makes sense that the wrap should work well now.

I don’t like the fairleads on the output side of the winch though. When I tack I want to be able to throw those off as the jib luffs so there’s no extra friction, and the new sheet can come in quickly. It seems like the fairleads would force you to keep the wraps on for extra time and slow that part of the process down.

Modifications from the original setup either created or amplified the problem, for sure.
Per original design, the jib sheets led to fairleads mounted to the deck, on the same level as the winches. Changing to tracks and cars changed the angle at the winch. 1" risers were added under the winches, but they did not seem to help.

The fairlead at the cleat arrangement is in flux. I switched out the non-rotating cabin-mounted clam cleats for these to make single-handing easier. This arrangement definitely has its pro's and con's. When single-handing today I had no problem uncleating and clearing the winch while tacking. There's plenty of room to grab and free that line. True, though, that it's a more fluid motion without the capture cap and fairlead at the cleat. It's a process. Always one more thing to balance.

 

[jssailem]

The shim is a solid idea to address the angle used by the sheet to enter the winch. Should be a required install for boats with cabin top jib blocks, as the fair lead from the block to the winch will be parallel. On boats that have the jib block on the deck near the gunnel with winch mounted on the combing the sheet entry to the winch is on an angle in the 8 degree range. When the boat deck and the winch are on the same plane for a boat then shims are needed to create that winch angle.

Good application of shims

I do not like the cam-cleat arrangement.

During a race your jib sheet with multiple wraps around a winch (friction) should reduce the level of force needed to hold the sheet in place. Crew, with sailing gloves, should be able to hold the sheet ready to adjust trim.

If speed and safety are your goals, I would invest in winches that are self tailing.

Remove the cam-cleat and fairlead that is designed for dinghies with out winches. The fairlead and Cam-cleat are so close to the winch that you will, at some point in time, experience a nasty fouled line. Either from a twist in the line or a back wrap from a flailing sheet creating an override.

Restating the question, ‘how do you solve a winch override?

I take a second line and tie an icicle hitch or wrap knot on the sheet between the winch and jib sheet block.

Icicle Hitch (Loop Method)

Very secure slide-and-grip knot, provides resistance in one direction.

www.animatedknots.com

I take up the strain of the jib sheet with the second line. With the winch now bypassed I can clear the wrap. Once the sheet is free I take up the jib sheet strain on the winch and clear the knot from the secondary line.

 

[rgranger]

 

[Sailfanatic]

The cam cleat does seem quite out of place with a winch setup. I would at least remove the fairlead off the top of the cam cleat, so the sheet does not need to pull through the fitting when tacking, and so it is easier to put the turns on and off the winch.

 

[thinwater]

The wedge is smart.

Lose the fairlead. No safe (or even possible) way to change the number of wraps under high load. Also excess friction. Place an open cam cleat on the bulkhead below the winch. I have had this arrangement on several boats, larger and smaller, and it works very well.

Yes, it is a self-tailing winch, but in gusty conditions (quick release might be needed) or light/moderate winds (this is faster for grinding, slight easing, and when it comes time to tack again) we often used the cam cleat instead. The self-tailer is only helpful if you need to grind a bunch using both hands, which is less likely on smaller boats ... if you time your tacks properly.

 

[Davidasailor26]

The self-tailer is only helpful if you need to grind a bunch using both hands

Or if you single hand and steering leaves you with, well, a single hand.

 

[stickinthemud57]

First of all, thanks for the comments. Always good to get other perspectives.

If speed and safety are your goals, I would invest in winches that are self tailing.

Many have advised this, but these are pricey. Maybe after the Admiral forgets how much we spent on sails over the last year.

Remove the cam-cleat and fairlead that is designed for dinghies with out winches. The fairlead and Cam-cleat are so close to the winch that you will, at some point in time, experience a nasty fouled line. Either from a twist in the line or a back wrap from a flailing sheet creating an override.

This is a good argument. As mentioned, that arrangement is "in flux". The current arrangement has served me well for the type of sailing I do. The swivelling feature allows me to manage the jib sheets from anywhere in the cockpit, and have proven sturdy and reliable over the three years they have been in service. Also, the captive jib sheet arrangement provides a stop point that prevents jibs sheets from flying loose. Also as mentioned, I have no problem freeing the windward sheet from the winch when tacking single-handed. I will have to see if the wedge fix completely eliminates fouling. If not, my current arrangement will need to be scrutinized.

Restating the question, ‘how do you solve a winch override?

I would rather just be sure to prevent it rather than employ the "icicle hitch" approach. I have seen videos touting this solution, but it requires either a winch in line with the jammed sheet or a stout block in line with the sheet to redirect the load to the other winch. I have two winches and no plans to install more.

EDIT - An unintended consequence of angling the winches back is that the winch handle hits the fairlead forward of the cam cleat, reducing its arc of effective operation. Since I now know that angle of the sheet aft of the winch is not a critical factor, I will definitely be looking at lowering that arrangement.

 

[thinwater]

Or if you single hand and steering leaves you with, well, a single hand.

That is what autopilot or tiller lock is for.

Loading the turns and selftailer with one hand is barely possible. Not with any load, and it is slow. You don't do it that way.

Often tacking a smaller boat single handed means pushing the tiller over and holding it with a foot or something similar, depending on the boat. If not tacking, any sort of tiller lock will do. Singlehanders have a range of self-steering methods.

In any case, the cam cleat method is faster, which is why I know it so well. Obviously, I have both methods at my disposal. The self-tailer really only helps for suatained, hard grinding, which is hardly ever needed on a 24- to 26-foot boat. Raising a stubborn sail or grinding in from a reach on a very windy day.

 

[stickinthemud57]

The wedge is smart.

I agree. Wish I had thought of it myself.

Lose the fairlead. No safe (or even possible) way to change the number of wraps under high load. Also excess friction.

I find that two wraps is ample for me to tension the jib sheets in the conditions I sail in. What little friction the fairleads might be generating has not been a problem in the three years I have been using this arrangement.

Place an open cam cleat on the bulkhead below the winch. I have had this arrangement on several boats, larger and smaller, and it works very well.

Except when single-handing in light to moderate breezes (most of my sailing). Then the rotating cleats serve me much better.

The self-tailer is only helpful if you need to grind a bunch using both hands, which is less likely on smaller boats ... if you time your tacks properly.

This reinforces my current opinion that self-tailing winches are a solution in search of a problem for me. I just don't feel the need under my current setup.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Often tacking a smaller boat single handed means pushing the tiller over and holding it with a foot or something similar, depending on the boat. If not tacking, any sort of tiller lock will do. Singlehanders have a range of self-steering methods.

Plus a million to the tiller lock comment. I use the TillerClutch device and frankly don't see how anyone could safely single hand without a similar device.

 

[Apex]

I've had a jam cleat as opposed to cam cleat behind the winch on Catalina 25. LOVED IT. The jam cleat was on a wedge block aft of the winch.

Self tailers can get in the way at times and I find it slows me down. I won't be getting rid of mine though.

 

[thinwater]

Plus a million to the tiller lock comment. I use the TillerClutch device and frankly don't see how anyone could safely single hand without a similar device.

I strongly recommend getting a Raymarine ST2000 or similar (note that the minimal pilots are slower lock-to-lock, which is bad). You will love it. And by all means, keep the clutch.

Tiller pilot mounting modifications
More discussion
DIY tiller lock

 

[thinwater]

... Then the rotating cleats serve me much better....

I need to think on that.

• On one hand, I understand how cleating could be easier. But cleating a winch tail and a tackle tail are different. To avoid wear and cleat smoothly, the rope needs to be coming in, if only very slightly, and you can pull a tackle with one hand. But you can't pull a loaded-up winch tail in. You can hold it, but you can not pull in rope. That means just pushing the rope into the camcleat, which is bad for the rope and also require leverage. I'm not seeing it.
• Release is easier on the bulkhead. Better leverage.
• Nothing to step on or snag a rope around on the bulkhead. I can imagine a rope getting snagged around the pivoting cam cleat on the pedestal.

The fairlead could catch on a bend in the rope. But more vitally, it inhibits adjusting the number of turns. There is no way you are going to add turns under load. Most sailors pull the jib across during a tack with a single turn on the winch, and then add a 1, 2, or 3 additional wraps as they start grinding, depending on the wind load. This is done by bringing the tail around, which the fairlead blocks. Until you explain how how you change the number of wraps under load, I don't think anyone will agree with the set-up. I think many people use cam cleats for the tail, but I have only seen plain, open top cam cleats.

 

[thinwater]

Some examples for discussion. Some of these I know to be stock installations.

 

[BigEasy]

[QUOTE="jssailem, post: 1799996, member: 127717
Restating the question, ‘how do you solve a winch override?
I take a second line and tie an icicle hitch or wrap knot on the sheet between the winch and jib sheet block.
[/QUOTE]
A rolling hitch works similarly in clearing overrides by relieving strain on active jib sheet.

 

[thinwater]

[QUOTE="jssailem, post: 1799996, member: 127717
Restating the question, ‘how do you solve a winch override?
I take a second line and tie an icicle hitch or wrap knot on the sheet between the winch and jib sheet block.

A rolling hitch works similarly in clearing overrides by relieving strain on active jib sheet.
[/QUOTE]

There are really two questions running through this thread:

1. How to prevent an override (the OP's question, and the answer, which he found on his own, is establishing the correct lead angle)?
2. How to clear an override (take the tension off with a gripping hitch, something we all need to know)?

On a small boat most overrides can be cleared simply by pulling the tail straight up, hard. There is not that much load. On a larger boat line with a gripping hitch led to another winch is required. After you make that mistake about twice you circle back to #1.

 

[Tally Ho]

Restating the question, ‘how do you solve a winch override?

I take a second line and tie an icicle hitch or wrap knot on the sheet between the winch and jib sheet block.

Icicle Hitch (Loop Method)

Very secure slide-and-grip knot, provides resistance in one direction.

www.animatedknots.com

I take up the strain of the jib sheet with the second line. With the winch now bypassed I can clear the wrap. Once the sheet is free I take up the jib sheet strain on the winch and clear the knot from the secondary line.

I had this happen one night in some high winds…jib sheet wrapped and I was scratching my head about how Imwas going to undo the wrap….

I used a Prussic knot (or a klemheist) on the jib sheet between the winch and the jib, then ran a line off the Prussic to a block behind the jib winch, and then back to a cabin top winch, and tightened it to take tension off the jib sheet. Then it was easy to unwrap the over wrap and free the jib sheet.

Prussic and Klemheist knots are really useful knots…and that Icicle knot looks pretty interesting too… will have to add that to my list of knots.

Greg

 

[stickinthemud57]

I think a lot of the differences of opinion in how to approach the cause and the cure of winch override and attendant hardware choices might hinge on the the type of boat in question and the sailing conditions one must be prepared to deal with.

jssailem accurately pointed out that my rotating cleat and fairlead assembly is more suited to dinghies without winches. In fact, the ones I am using are original equipment on the Hunter 170 (my previous boat). In many ways, the hardware on the Hunter 170 (17' daysailer) was actually more robust than the standard hardware on my MacGregor 26S. I haven't broken anything yet, and if I do, I drop sail and motor into the marina. Far lower stakes that most of you here deal with, I am thinking.

To me my boat is an oversized skiff. I sail in protected waters, stay ashore when winds get above 20 mph, and would be extremely reticent about taking it out in the coastal and blue waters that many of you ply. This gives me the freedom to use solutions that would be sketchy and downright foolhardy in more demanding situations.

I agree that my cleat assembly comes with drawbacks. It also comes with advantages for the way that I sail. Melding the two is a challenge that keeps my mind active.

The food for thought here is rich and nourishing. Thanks to all who are providing their thoughts and opinions!