my offer was rejected and countered.. cal 3-34

[Sumner]

... the small blisters/pimples seem to only be a problem for the seller during the sale of it..

.... and sooner or later we are the seller :cry: and have to deal with a buyer who is going through everything we've talked about .

It is interesting to read some of the different forum posts over the years where all of us are giving our buddy the buyer advice on how to low-ball the seller but when we are selling our boat it should get top dollar . I like the ones also where all lawyers are crooks, but as soon as someone has an issue with something or someone everyone's advise is 'you had better go get a lawyer' :cry:. Sorry to get off topic as the blister deal already has taken us off topic of you buying a boat and I'll take more than partial blame for that ,

Sum

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[centerline]

If you get it then stop looking and saying 'if only' ,

Sum

it isnt my nature to dwell on what could/should have been.... the last time i said "if only" was about 25 years ago, I had been drinking a little, and thought it should be a blast to go for a ride on my brothers dirt bike... anyway, as funny, stupid, enlightening, and entertaining as the story may be, I wont tell it here, 'cuz there are a lot of cuss words and "if onlys" in it.... I have always been a fairly quick learner once i got the concept, and from that one experience (and maybe some leading up to it) I learned to make decisions based on self preservation of life, limb and fortune, and, so there can be no reason for any "if only" thoughts afterwards..

 

[centerline]

.... and sooner or later we are the seller :cry: and have to deal with a buyer who is going through everything we've talked about .

It is interesting to read some of the different forum posts over the years where all of us are giving our buddy the buyer advice on how to low-ball the seller but when we are selling our boat it should get top dollar . I like the ones also where all lawyers are crooks, but as soon as someone has an issue with something or someone everyone's advise is 'you had better go get a lawyer' :cry:. Sorry to get off topic as the blister deal already has taken us off topic of you buying a boat and I'll take more than partial blame for that ,

Sum

not at all off topic... its all in the process of making the right decision, which is not always the same for all people...

 

[bugaloo]

Boats are like women!!!! Follow your heart

 

[puddlejockey]

Boats are like women!!!! Follow your heart

Bug, this is great advice! I suspect you take a lot better care of your boat than I do.
Therefore, my wife should be arriving via ups shortly. Please open the box promptly and carefully.....she's gonna be pissed..
She likes spaghetti and shopping....good luck.
Keeping the boat.

 

[Chris Patterson]

Odd comparison. Recently a fellow contacted me and wanted to know if I would trade him one of my sailboats for his. Said it 'caused his divorce'. Actually I would have divorced the bloke as well from seeing the boat, and although he said he couldn't stand to see it anymore, I wondered how a different boat would have changed the equation.

Nuther thing. My wife makes over a quarter a year, my boat eats only a few thou. One eats, the other provides.

And if I were female, I think this comparison would disconcert me..


One more odd and insignificant observation. My boat is not a he, or a she. It is an IT. An inanimate object that has no personality, only a function. It would be belittling for both to address it as so. Gender inspecific. And close to a Scott Peck idea of affection and emotion displacement.
A mechanical object, to do what I want it to do without being 'good' to it, nor reprisals from profaning it. These feelings are in your mind, not your heart. Get over it.

 

[Sandy Stone]

One more odd and insignificant observation. My boat is not a he, or a she. It is an IT. An inanimate object that has no personality, only a function. It would be belittling for both to address it as so. Gender inspecific. And close to a Scott Peck idea of affection and emotion displacement.
A mechanical object, to do what I want it to do without being 'good' to it, nor reprisals from profaning it. These feelings are in your mind, not your heart. Get over it.

Don't let your boat hear you say that!

 

[BigEasy]

Been thinking a bit about your situation. If the surveyor's report indicates that the Cal's hull is sound enough for your intended use, if you purchase at a "dirt cheap price", if you don't intend to sink thousands into the boat on upgrades, if you are satisfied enough with the boat to clean it up and perform the repairs that are necessary yourself, as well as patch the blisters on an as needed basis.......What do you have to lose? At the price point that you would purchase, you probably won't lose too much on resale, especially on a boat as old as the Cal. Even if it depreciates 4% annually, we aren't talking about a huge amount of money.
Also, with regards to the blisters, do you guys haul out boats during the winter months in the PNW? If so, in addition to the colder water temps, I would think that blister activity would be a very slow process in Oregon as compared the Gulf Coast where our boats are in the water year round with water temperatures approaching 90 degrees in summer months. I have read that boats that have extensive blisters that are repaired have greater success when they are hauled & blocked for a few months annually to allow drying to occur. With any chemical reaction, the reaction proceeds at a much faster rate in the continual presence of a solution (water) and higher solution temperatures.
Just some observations, as some posters have mentioned, there are thousands of boats out there with blistering whose owners are quite content. This Cal may not be a bad deal for you if you willing to accept some limitations.

 

[centerline]

Been thinking a bit about your situation. If the surveyor's report indicates that the Cal's hull is sound enough for your intended use, if you purchase at a "dirt cheap price", if you don't intend to sink thousands into the boat on upgrades, if you are satisfied enough with the boat to clean it up and perform the repairs that are necessary yourself, as well as patch the blisters on an as needed basis.......What do you have to lose? At the price point that you would purchase, you probably won't lose too much on resale, especially on a boat as old as the Cal. Even if it depreciates 4% annually, we aren't talking about a huge amount of money.
Also, with regards to the blisters, do you guys haul out boats during the winter months in the PNW? If so, in addition to the colder water temps, I would think that blister activity would be a very slow process in Oregon as compared the Gulf Coast where our boats are in the water year round with water temperatures approaching 90 degrees in summer months. I have read that boats that have extensive blisters that are repaired have greater success when they are hauled & blocked for a few months annually to allow drying to occur. With any chemical reaction, the reaction proceeds at a much faster rate in the continual presence of a solution (water) and higher solution temperatures.
Just some observations, as some posters have mentioned, there are thousands of boats out there with blistering whose owners are quite content. This Cal may not be a bad deal for you if you willing to accept some limitations.

the only place it hurts, is the resale value... but I have finally made up my mind to decline the offer for purchase at the current price.... no where near it and maybe not at all.
regardless of the blistered bottom, it needs bottom paint, the sails need a bit of work, or replacing,.... the dodger needs replaced, and the rubrail rubber is rotten.... there are no engine records or recorded hours, the LP gas system needs brought up to standards, and there are some minor wiring issues that need to be addressed... its a nice looking neglected boat that the owner didnt abuse, but neither did he maintain it....

 

[BigEasy]

Don't get discouraged. It is still a buyer's market and there are a lot of boats for sale.
Just takes time to find what you are looking for.

 

[Sumner]

I have no idea of what the true value of the boat this boat was but could see an easy $5000-$7000 going into what you listed. I'll bet you made the right decision and have learned a lot from the experience that will help in the future. I rushed ours and didn't have near the experience you have right now. We are very happy with what we have, but I got tunnel vision and have since learned that there were a number of other boats out there that might of also met our goals. Maybe even with less work and money spent.

One thing I learned was that if I was looking now I'd spend a lot of time going to yards where the boats are out of the water and it is easy to see the whole boat and view their condition easier. Then if you narrow it down they can put it in for a sea trials. Also there are a lot of boats in these yards that have for-sale signs on them, but aren't listed. Not sure if the yards are there like in Florida, but if so spend some time in them,

Sum

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[Joe]

I've been following this thread a bit and it seems that establishing market value for a damaged boat is nearly impossible unless you know the fair market value for a vessel in Bristol condition.... it appears that the seller has considered the cost of repairs and upgrades and subtracted them from the Bristol price..... to come up with his selling number.... does that make sense.

With that theory in mind..... you must do the same thing. You must decide what the market value would be if it were fixed up.... then figure your costs to put it that way... then see what makes sense.

When purchasing a "bargain" you must know it's finished value first. It's like buying a fixer property .... the neighborhood, i.e. marketplace, must support your price point... you decide that through research. Then you start crunching the numbers to come up with a fair purchase price that will absorb your fix up costs and adequate profit margin.... Then you make your offer based on this knowledge, including a small margin for negotiation.

Your seller did this... he set a negotiation margin based on the aforementioned method.... except he was on the other side.....

Now... in my opinion... this has been a great experience for you and will help you in your next effort. The problem all of us face is that we get emotionally involved in a particular purchase.... a house, a car, and especially a boat.... so we don't necessarily treat it as a business venture... and let's face it... buying a sailboat is about as far from a business venture as you can get.... and.. we don't buy boats to make money... we buy them because we love what they give us and what they say about us....... and how can you put a value on that?

If you truly love a boat for its design, reputation, style, etc.... then you will do what ever you can to acquire it.... I think that's what Sumner felt....he just wanted that boat and accepted its shortcomings.

So.... if a vessel appeals to you in an emotional, spiritual way.... I don't think you can pay too much for it.... because you can't put a price on love.

 

[jibes138]

I think a fair way to look at it would be to take the boat size and features desired. Then take the desired purchase price, in this case around 16K and then do a search on available boats for this price range in the area. Now put them side by side and compare the condition. My guess is that for this size boat at that price they will all have a host of issues that a survey will recommend a bunch of fixes or upgrades to current standards. So the question with this boat is whether it is a better deal than all the other available boats at this price point? Upping the price point will certainly get a boat with a shorter survey list but not a blank one.

 

[Chris Patterson]

That was well said, Joe.

 

[NotCook]

Not me , someone else, we paid for ours,

Sum

Oops! You're right (of course - you would know!).

I corrected my references. Sorry Sum!

B

 

[centerline]

I've been following this thread a bit and it seems that establishing market value for a damaged boat is nearly impossible unless you know the fair market value for a vessel in Bristol condition.... it appears that the seller has considered the cost of repairs and upgrades and subtracted them from the Bristol price..... to come up with his selling number.... does that make sense.

you must do the same thing.
When purchasing a "bargain" you must know it's finished value first.... You must decide what the market value would be if it were fixed up.... then figure your costs to put it that way...
Then you start crunching the numbers to come up with a fair purchase price that will absorb your fix up costs and adequate profit margin.... Then you make your offer based on this knowledge, including a small margin for negotiation.
.
in my opinion... this has been a great experience for you and will help you in your next effort.

If you truly love a boat for its design, reputation, style, etc.... then you will do what ever you can to acquire it....

So.... if a vessel appeals to you in an emotional, spiritual way.... I don't think you can pay too much for it.... because you can't put a price on love.

Joe,
what yo usaid makes perfect sense to me, and its the way I have been figuring it all along, but not knowing how many other factors I should be figuring in.....

considering a new 33-35ft offshore/bluewater boat outfitted like this one is, would probabley be in the 250-270,000 range (that may be a bit high), and a 10yr old one in bristol condition will probably command a price of around 100G....
I can reasonably see this boat, in bristol condition in the 30-35G range.......

so if in fact it is that high, the upgrades to put it there exceed the value....


BUT.... I dont really need a boat in bristol condition... somewhat a little below that is fine with me.... all I want is safe, seaworthy and somewhat pleasent to look at.

figuring the cost of the necessary items just to get it to an acceptable basic condition that will look good to a surveyor, will cost about 18G, (this is a complete and proper blister repair, new sails, rubrail, LPsystem repair, electrical repair, dodger/bimini, plus other minor issues, ECT...) if the work was to be hired out to a boat yard....

doing the work myself, and forgoing the need for "new" sails, but finding some good used ones, and leaving the bottom alone, other than the repair of any larger blisters that pop up from time to time, and doing most of the work my self, I can see cutting the actual cost to nearly 25% of the estimated cost.

but I dont think I should be "giving away" my time in the estimated costs of repairs... (if im willing and capable of doing most of the work myself to bring down the cost of repairs, that should go to my credit, not the sellers)... nor should I consider used or wore out sails to be acceptable, when figuring a bristol condition price.
so using all this for the purpose of finding a reasonable value of the boat, as it sits at this dock, in this condition, in my mind its somewhat closer to a 10 to 12,000 dollar boat....:cry:

 

[jibes138]

Why not offer 10 grand based on the results of the survey and see if the owner takes it? It is normal negotiations to use the survey to negotiate price, just like buying a house and getting a home inspection. You could ask the owner to repair the deficiencies at his expense or to take the cost of the repairs off the price. If the mandatory repairs are more than the current price then the value of the boat is zero. Why would someone spend 18 grand to sell the boat for 16 grand? If the owner spent 18 grand to fix it up he would likely be asking the 34 grand you note above. Either the owner has already discounted for the deficiencies in his asking price or the boat is a chainsaw candidate. I'm guessing he has already discounted for the deficiencies, but you should have some wiggle room to negotiate. As others have noted cost of storage will eat up his 16 grand in no time flat.

 

[Apex]

centerline: I think your post speaks to exactly what i thought reading this thread: it may not only be the financial decision, but a workload decision. Good on you for the thoughtful purchase.

Jibes is spot on: I would confer that an option is to factor in the offer to hire out what you don't want to tackle. that of course only confounds value and offering price: necessary hired repairs cost + discounted self-repairs + offer price = conditional value.

Since you have already foot the bill for the survey, you can always justify the offer you provide, ....or as you mentioned politely decline due to the amount of systems that require repair.

 

[Chris Patterson]

The equation can be simplified by deciding the basic, 'How much am I willing to spend, for the accepted condition of the boat, up to and including completion of repairs'?

Time has to be calculated differently. Basically depending upon how much of it you have. A very valuable, natural, and non renewable resource.

(Last year I was paying a guy to work on one of my boats, while I simultaneously worked on another one. Cost effectiveness, that the 'heart' shouldn't intrude upon)..

 

[fa102]

The equation can be simplified by deciding the basic, 'How much am I willing to spend, for the accepted condition of the boat, up to and including completion of repairs'?

Time has to be calculated differently. Basically depending upon how much of it you have. A very valuable, natural, and non renewable resource.

(Last year I was paying a guy to work on one of my boats, while I simultaneously worked on another one. Cost effectiveness, that the 'heart' shouldn't intrude upon)..

===
All this speculation is nice but:
Purchasing a boat in less than sound condition may preclude obtaining insurance coverage (in that situation your purchase dollars are un-covered along with the all repair / parts expenditures and you may not be able to store the boat at a marina as smart boat yards require proof of insurance.
1-- Study the survey report (especially the deficiency notes) and with out emotion / affection for the subject boat.
2-- Determine the Retail cost of all repairs (parts & labor as if you will be paying others to do all the work) as they could exceed the value of the boat. (How much time and money do you have to throw at a project and will all that exceed the boats value?)
My experience (as a marine surveyor and sailboat owner (doing nearly 100% of upgrades-repairs - maintenance) is by the best boat you can afford, in the best condition at a price commensurate with the condition - equipment - regional market place.
If sailboat values are high in your area why not look for a boat in areas with more rational
prices. (Keep in mind that it is difficult to insure boats at values that exceed published
price guides.)
Frank A (NY)