My 40 came with 4 cleats. Would like to add two more.

[limbodog]

Note: 365 liveaboard, my boat and I will be spending winters in the water with the wind and snow (hopefully under shrink wrap at the Marina tho')

I don't actually know if that's a thing people do. I kind of assume that the existing cleats aren't just placed along the gunwales, but in particularly reinforced areas. But with two cleats up front and two in the back, I've got my spring lines hitched to the rail. I do not *like* having my spring lines hitched to the rail.

So do people add cleats to a boat in places where there never was one? Is there a recommended process for this? I'd love to have a matching pair right at the 20' mark.

 

[kappykaplan]

Does your boat have a toe rail? If so, you may be able to mount cleats on the toe rail. I have one cleat on each side.

 

[limbodog]

It does. My spring lines pass through the holes in it presently.

Is that what people do is use the toe rails? I’m paranoid about damaging that seam... but maybe it’s better than alternative.

May I ask how you mounted your cleats?

 

[Capt Robbie]

Yes you can add cleats however they must be reinforced with a metal backing plate just like the factory cleats are. If you don't install backing plate they will just pull out of the decking.

I have a hunter 34 which is essentially a mini version of your h40. You have an aluminum toe rail that runs the entire length of your boat. I just attach a snap shackle to the dock line eye and snap it on the toe rail wherever I need it. Quick and easy. Most heavy duty stainless steel snap shackles are rated for 2200lb which should be more then enough for a spring line. That's a lot easier then installing mid ship cleats.

 

[Capt Robbie]

The toe rail is not just as rub rail it's designed for block and tackle to be attached for various points of sail and sail trim. They are designed to take a lot of load. Just don't try to haul the boat out with them. Spring line will not separate the deck to hull seam.

 

[Capt Robbie]

I saw someone bolt an aluminum cleat to a 1/2 inch peice of aluminum stock which was then bolted thru two of the toe rail bolts before and after the cleat. Seamed to be a lot of work and coast compared to a snap shackle.

 

[limbodog]

2200lbs seems kinda light for an 18000 lb boat, no? Also, the snap shackles are all stainless and the rail is aluminum, seems you'd want to avoid the combination wouldn't you?

I like the idea in general, but I'm concerned it's not enough for a storm. I feel like a proper cleat would be better.

I'm still a newbie, so I'm not sure if I should be this worried about it.

I see other people like the foldable cleat: https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|2259971|2709020&id=80333 But 2000 lbs still seems light to me (I have no idea how much tension a spring line is expected to be able to take)

 

[Capt Robbie]

Yes cleat is better, I thought you were looking for gerneral docking and not for major storms.
However, I'm sure commercial grade snap shackles are available that will fit thru the toe rail.
Look at the working load of your dock lines I'm sure you can find something to match the safe working load. I have had no issues with stainless on the aluminum rail 35 years and counting.

 

[jssailem]

I have no idea how much tension a spring line is expected to be able to take

This is a good question.
Note this is not going to handle the suspension of your boat (18000 lbs) in the air. It is to stop the force of the boat moving through the water, or to stop the inertia of the force that is causing your boat to move.
I have 5/8 th braided Nylon for permanent deck lines on my 35ft 16,000lb boat. They are over rated to hold my boat to the dock through the winter storms when I can not drive the 250 miles to check on the boat..

You will find 1/2 braided nylon to be more than adequate. And if the wind becomes a concern, then do what the US Navy does... Double up your lines, so a 1/2 in line does the work of a 1 inch line.

Here is a link to line specifications. https://www.ropeinc.com/nylon-db.htm

 

[Capt Robbie]

I agree with jssailem doubling your spring lines spreads the working load across two lines instead of one. Plus if you are concerned about strong winds you can add line snobers to help take some stress shock from the spring lines. I still think you should be ok with commercial grade snap shackles.

 

[jssailem]

I would be concerned about the line running through the holes in the aluminum rub rail. Unless the holes were well rounded I can see them being a source of line chaffing/abrading.

 

[Terry Cox]

It appears you may have come across my midship cleat article that I wrote a few years ago. Why Hunter installed only four cleats is beyond me, but in case you missed my article, it is here: https://hunter.sailboatowners.com/mods.php?task=article&mid=45&aid=7556&mn=42

What used to be a monkey drill before, even with a crew, now is pretty routine with the addition of the midship cleats, as I sail solo the majority of the time.

As far as spring lines go, both dock lines (bow/stern) are long enough to extend to the midship cleat as a spring line, fore and aft. At our home dock I always run spring lines to the midship cleat as a precaution. Seldom use/need them when out cruising because we anchor most of the time.

Our boat displaces 35,000 pounds and the three strand nylon dock lines allow enough flexibility to absorb even storm conditions. I've used dock line snubbers before only because the PO had them on the boat when we took possession. Never felt the need to replace them.

 

[Benny17441]

I would recommend adding cleats to the deck instead of using the toe rails. Just pick a size appropriate for your lines, choose the location amidship, place as trip of masking tape and mark where the holes are going to be drilled (masking tape will prevent the gelcoat from cracking as you drill hole),insert epoxy on the insides of the holes to seal against moisture, finish with a caulking sealer. Below the deck install a backing plate or heavy duty washers and tighten nuts and lock washers. Done. Unless in hurricane conditions the forces on those cleats are not going to be anywhere near where damage could be caused. Although I once tied up at a Marina in the Hudson River in NJ and the rolling was so bad , because of the ferries, that it loosened the stern cleat. The toe rail is used mostly to hang fenders.

 

[Terry Cox]

The toe rail is used mostly to hang fenders.

Nonsense. Hunter built our boat with a bow and stern cleat on the toe rail for a reason. They advised that the toe rail was the best place and strongest to add a midship cleat. Installing a cleat on the deck where the builder did not intend one is asking for trouble. Hunter added support plates to the deck during layup where stress components were added, such as winches, turning block mounts, travelers, clutches, etc., to support these high stress points. Decks without a stress design built in, such that a cleat places, would be ill advised, IMHO.

I suppose you could add backing plates, caulking, fasteners, etc., to a deck mounted cleat (not easy on our boat due to the headliner), but if the builder advised that the toe rail was the best place to mount a midship cleat, that would be sage advice worth considering.

 

[limbodog]

This is the setup I have now:

I'm stern-in with the finger-dock on the port side and a neighbor off my starboard side.

I have 2x 5/8" bow lines to the finger. one has a blue Shockles snubber in it, the other has a little more slack (enough that if the snubber is fully extended the second is about taut) .
I have 2x 5/8" lines about 15' long port-side tied to the toe-rail with 'firehose' style friction sleeves on them since the toe rail looks perfect for chafing its way through nylon. These lines aren't uniformly placed. One is a bit longer, and both go to separate cleats on the finger. One has a black Shockles snubber on it.
I have 1x 5/8" line starboard-side tied to toe-rail about 20' long.
I have 1x 5/8" line about 8' long with a blue Shockles snubber in it from my stern port side across the finger to the main dock, and a spare 3/8" line backing it up mostly for moral support.
I have 1x 5/8" line about 8' long with a black Shockles snubber in it from my stern starboard side to the main dock.
I have 1x 5/8" line about 6' long with a rubber snubber in it from stern starboard side to the main dock. ( doubt I could remove that snubber without a saw at this point)
I have 1x 5/8" line about 12' long from my stern starboard side across the transom to the main dock on the port side.
I have 1x 5/8" line that the marina staff tied on which connects by bow cleats to the two neighboring boats (all the boats are tied together)
I mention the color of the snubbers because it seems the black ones are much stiffer than blue (tho' I didn't see any indicator of strength on the packaging)

Writing it out, it seems like a lot. But it was in reaction to the first 40+mph winds I experienced as a liveaboard in October. Every gust felt like it was about to rip off my cleats. And my stern rubbed against the main dock damaging the gel coat on the edge of the transom. So I doubled up everything I could, and added as many snubbers as I could afford. The second 40+mph winds evening was less stressful, but it still sounded like every line through the toe rail was in danger of being chaffed-through (I am impressed with my boat's internal acoustics as far as line creaking is concerned).

The 3rd night in two months where we had 40+ gusts I nearly slept through it. But my brain woke me up every time I heard those toe-line tie-offs creaking at 95 decibels. At least that time I didn't feel the need to go outside in the cold and check on them every half hour. But I think to truly sleep through the next 40+, I need to silence those lines by giving them a better connection to the rail. I did find I have 1 snap-clip in previous-owner's Bag of Metal Mysteries™ that I rummaged through. Tho' I don't know it's rating. (I also don't know if the snap-clip will make a racket when the wind picks up)

The marina is fairly protected overall, but I'm out in a less protected slip. A few of the other residents have raised eyebrows when I say what slip I'm in for the winter. But my next-slip neighbor said 'it's not as bad as everyone says'.

I really just want to know my boat is secure and my lines won't be severed while I'm asleep.

Also, looking back, I wish I had just bought a spool of 5/8" line and started making my own dock lines with braided eye splices. Would have saved a good deal of money.

 

[Capt Robbie]

Do you have any snap shackle blocks?
If so I have used them to run additional mid ship spring lines thru the blocks to your cockpit winch cleats fore and aft spring lines.
Might be a bit noisy but you could attach bungee cords from the blocks to your life lines to keep them off the deck and reduce the noise. I have done this on my H34 during some really bad nor'easters here in nj. That certainly will solve your chafing concerns.

You could also use the blocks as cleats and tie your lines directly to them.

I have also used the recessed jib track cars to run additional spring lines to my winch cleats during hurricanes with no issues.
60-80 plus winds.

Like I said before the toe rail is an unbelievablely strong attachment point.

Hope this helps.

 

[MetricMountie]

I have a 40.5 that has midship cleats installed port and starboard. The installation was quite simple and the cleats are the same size as those from the factory installed fore and aft. I simply measured the length of the top of the cleat, then measured along the top of the toe rail to find the mid point of the hull where I wanted to install them. I marked the center point of the cleat with the center point of the toe rail and then the cleat length fore and aft and marked those points. I them took my grinder with a cutting wheel attached and cut away the vertical portion of the toe rail where the cleat was to be mounted. I then switched the cutting wheel for a grinding wheel and smoothed out the cut edge at each end at a slight angle and the horizontal portion flat. I then placed the cleat on the toe rail and marked the two mounting points of the cleat on the toe rail and drilled the appropriate sized holes for the mounted bolts. I bedded the cleat with butile tap, dropped the mounting bolts through and secured the bolts with flat stainless flat and lock washers, bolts and finally an acorn bolts to avoid any underside line chafe.

 

[limbodog]

@MetricMountie did you use stainless cleats, or aluminum? I'd prefer a permanent mount. It seems like more than a couple people just ground down the rail and put cleats on it. But I don't know about mounting steel on an aluminum rail. Presumably you can put some protective layer between, right? Did you do that?

 

[MetricMountie]

I used aluminum cleats the same as the factory but applied a bedding of butyl tape under the cleat and against the rail and the secured them with the stainless bolts and nuts. I used butyl to seal more than anything but figured it would also eliminate some galvanic reaction between the aluminum and stainless. So far so good, I check the bolts the entire length of the toe rails every year before we hit the water. A thin slice of ridged plastic might do the trick for you as well.

 

[Capt Robbie]

You might want to go to an automotive store an get a tire tube repair kit and cut a piece of that rubber to use as a gasket between the two metal peices. That will help prevent galvanic action.