For 9 months now I've been disappointed with the quantity of the H23's weather helm. In 15 knots with 120 and full main, I'd guess the required force was about 30lbs to keep the boat on track. Well, it's all gone ! The problem with the H23 (all of them ?) is the placement of the rope attachment eye on the lower rudder fiberglass section (at top of that section though). When the rudder is extended and ready for use, the rope attachment eye is too close to the front of the rudder. That makes the angle between the pivot bolt (aluminum to fiber rudder) almost zero, a straight line. This makes the rudder want to creep out/back while moving. That creates LOTS of weather helm. I was going to move that eye further back so when I pulled the rudder rope tight, it actually had some leverage to keep the rudder down. Instead, I put a bungee, twice around the rudder alum/fiber section, BELOW the bolt. And pull it down over the bigger-cross section (higher on rudder but still just out of water) to smaller-cross section 'bump'. That also holds the bungee further down in the rear, which gives it more leverage to keep the fiber rudder section, under the alum rudder section. And guess what ? :+) 20 knots and maybe 5-10 lbs of helm !!!!!! How could Hunter have screwed it up so badly ?
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Greg Stebbins
I think that the lack of MA in the rudder...
line is intentional. It's what allows it to "kick-up" when hit. I'll admit it does look pretty lame down inside the box. I replaced the line with 1/2 inch double brad, cleaned up the cleat and have (as yet) not had any problem with the rudder pulling back. Greg H23 Faster
line is intentional. It's what allows it to "kick-up" when hit. I'll admit it does look pretty lame down inside the box. I replaced the line with 1/2 inch double brad, cleaned up the cleat and have (as yet) not had any problem with the rudder pulling back. Greg H23 Faster
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Mike
Tried That
Previous owner already tried that, the line is so big it barely fits thru the alum section hole/pulley. I tried getting that rope nice and tight, and after sailing a while, adding a short 2x3 underneath that rope between the pulley and cam cleat...still didn't work. IMHO, the rope CAN'T work as the attachment point on the fiber section of rudder (at top) is too far back. It shoudl be moved to other end (back) of rudder top, about 6" back. Try a bungee - it pulls it way in. Also all the plastic shim material showed up UPS and I'm going to fix all the side:side slop next. After that I'm putting a spring and washer on the top pin that holds the alum rudder section to boat. Following seas (3-4') push the rudder up against that wire key-ring thing, over and over...a spring will fix that.
Previous owner already tried that, the line is so big it barely fits thru the alum section hole/pulley. I tried getting that rope nice and tight, and after sailing a while, adding a short 2x3 underneath that rope between the pulley and cam cleat...still didn't work. IMHO, the rope CAN'T work as the attachment point on the fiber section of rudder (at top) is too far back. It shoudl be moved to other end (back) of rudder top, about 6" back. Try a bungee - it pulls it way in. Also all the plastic shim material showed up UPS and I'm going to fix all the side:side slop next. After that I'm putting a spring and washer on the top pin that holds the alum rudder section to boat. Following seas (3-4') push the rudder up against that wire key-ring thing, over and over...a spring will fix that.
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Gary Bridi
missin the fun
interesting posts--sonds like i am missing all the "fun". I have a 1992 h23 and have tuned almost all of the excessive weather helm out of it. If the rudder gets to a true vertical position, I don't see how it can add weather helm, and mine get to a true vertical position. Gary Bridi
interesting posts--sonds like i am missing all the "fun". I have a 1992 h23 and have tuned almost all of the excessive weather helm out of it. If the rudder gets to a true vertical position, I don't see how it can add weather helm, and mine get to a true vertical position. Gary Bridi
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Mikey
More Fun :+)
True vertical is actually what we want. The problem is the fiber rudder part has the rope eye too far forward, so when you pull it to pull the rudder in, the closer it gets to being where it's suppsoed to be the more it is a straight line, ie, no mechanical advantage, no force keeping the rudder where it's supposed to be. I've tried everything but a winch on that rope, and it still doesn't work.The design stinks. You could move that eye to the back of the top of the fiber-rudder, or use a bungee. A bungee makes the boat a different boat. Maybe they fixed it after 86 or so ? Months ago i was under the impression the excessive weather helm was due to the excessive rake all these boats come with... Now I can did the rail in the water at 20knots and still have less than 10lbs of helm.
True vertical is actually what we want. The problem is the fiber rudder part has the rope eye too far forward, so when you pull it to pull the rudder in, the closer it gets to being where it's suppsoed to be the more it is a straight line, ie, no mechanical advantage, no force keeping the rudder where it's supposed to be. I've tried everything but a winch on that rope, and it still doesn't work.The design stinks. You could move that eye to the back of the top of the fiber-rudder, or use a bungee. A bungee makes the boat a different boat. Maybe they fixed it after 86 or so ? Months ago i was under the impression the excessive weather helm was due to the excessive rake all these boats come with... Now I can did the rail in the water at 20knots and still have less than 10lbs of helm.
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MIke B
missing?
ON our 89 h23 the only time I have noticed serious weather helm is when I was sailing with reefed main alone , no jib , and very heavy wind, am I doing something wrong , MIke
ON our 89 h23 the only time I have noticed serious weather helm is when I was sailing with reefed main alone , no jib , and very heavy wind, am I doing something wrong , MIke
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misc
Right it sounds
Does your fiber part of rudder stay 'under' the alum part, or does it like to swing out a little, as if the rope was loose ? Have you ever had it apart ? Is the eye which the rope is tied to on the front of the fiber part or rear ? Maybe friction is keeping it in the right place, not the rope ? I just siliconed 2 1/8" pvc shims on each side of fiber part of rudder as it had too much 'slop' in the alum part. If all the H23's were made that way, the design stinks ! At least they should have put the rope eye on the _back_ of the fiber rudder, not the front.
Does your fiber part of rudder stay 'under' the alum part, or does it like to swing out a little, as if the rope was loose ? Have you ever had it apart ? Is the eye which the rope is tied to on the front of the fiber part or rear ? Maybe friction is keeping it in the right place, not the rope ? I just siliconed 2 1/8" pvc shims on each side of fiber part of rudder as it had too much 'slop' in the alum part. If all the H23's were made that way, the design stinks ! At least they should have put the rope eye on the _back_ of the fiber rudder, not the front.
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Kris Cox
Rudder Bolt
A previous owner of my '86 H23 inserted a second bolt through the rudder to hold it in the vertical position. He obviously did this because of the poor mechanical advantage due to the lines point of attachment to the rudder. Just make sure you don't ground yourself in this configuration...! (Another poor design is that the rudder draws more than the keel.) BTW...Even with the fixed rudder, I still have significant weather helm, and am starting to tune it away through rigging adjustments (a convenient time, since I just had to replace my headstay). Kris Cox "Clarity"
A previous owner of my '86 H23 inserted a second bolt through the rudder to hold it in the vertical position. He obviously did this because of the poor mechanical advantage due to the lines point of attachment to the rudder. Just make sure you don't ground yourself in this configuration...! (Another poor design is that the rudder draws more than the keel.) BTW...Even with the fixed rudder, I still have significant weather helm, and am starting to tune it away through rigging adjustments (a convenient time, since I just had to replace my headstay). Kris Cox "Clarity"
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Les Murray
RE: missing? - Main only will cause weather helm
Mike, When you are under Main alone, especially in heavy wind, your boat will have weather helm. This is because the Center of Effort (CE) is moved to behind the keel, causing the boat to turn into the wind. If you sail with jib alone, you will get lee helm because the CE is in front of the keel. You can actually steer the boat without a keel this way by trimming the main and jib acordingly to influence which helm you need. Les Murray H20 Limerick
Mike, When you are under Main alone, especially in heavy wind, your boat will have weather helm. This is because the Center of Effort (CE) is moved to behind the keel, causing the boat to turn into the wind. If you sail with jib alone, you will get lee helm because the CE is in front of the keel. You can actually steer the boat without a keel this way by trimming the main and jib acordingly to influence which helm you need. Les Murray H20 Limerick
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Kris Cox
Les
Les, the problem that I have heard in a number of different posts, is that the boat (including mine) is naturally unbalanced. My boat, since I bought it last year, was almost perfectly balanced when sailing with a reefed main--regardless of the wind velocity. Monday, I retuned my rigging, but have not sailed it yet. It remains to be seen if I was able to move my center of effort forward enough, or not (I'm guessing it will have limited effect). Since so many people have this problem (or so I have heard), this strikes me as a design "feature" more than sailing know-how. Kris "Clarity"
Les, the problem that I have heard in a number of different posts, is that the boat (including mine) is naturally unbalanced. My boat, since I bought it last year, was almost perfectly balanced when sailing with a reefed main--regardless of the wind velocity. Monday, I retuned my rigging, but have not sailed it yet. It remains to be seen if I was able to move my center of effort forward enough, or not (I'm guessing it will have limited effect). Since so many people have this problem (or so I have heard), this strikes me as a design "feature" more than sailing know-how. Kris "Clarity"
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M
DON'T have to re-rig
Yes, I was thinking about moving the attachment eye for the rudder pull-down rope - too much trouble. Put a bungee on it, just above lower boat:housing pin to below rudder thinning down section. PULL the rudder in ALL THE WAY with a bungee. The rope will not work. I have 5-10lbs of weather helm in 20knots of wind. Rigging is not important. Put the rudder where it was designed - but just they could not get it there in practice.
Yes, I was thinking about moving the attachment eye for the rudder pull-down rope - too much trouble. Put a bungee on it, just above lower boat:housing pin to below rudder thinning down section. PULL the rudder in ALL THE WAY with a bungee. The rope will not work. I have 5-10lbs of weather helm in 20knots of wind. Rigging is not important. Put the rudder where it was designed - but just they could not get it there in practice.
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M
Rigging Schmigging
Put a bungee around the rudder and housing to keep the rudder ALL THE WAY IN and you will have very little weather helm. You have to go in the water to do it, or take the rudder off the pins. BUNGEE BUNGEE BUNGEE Don't waste your time with rigging like I 1st did.
Put a bungee around the rudder and housing to keep the rudder ALL THE WAY IN and you will have very little weather helm. You have to go in the water to do it, or take the rudder off the pins. BUNGEE BUNGEE BUNGEE Don't waste your time with rigging like I 1st did.
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