The instrumentation on my boat is close to "packing it in". It's comprised of Signet wind/depth/speed, a Furuno 1621 radar (which only works intermittently) and an ST-4000 autohelm none of which is connected to anything else. They're each just separate free-standing instruments. There's not even wind input for the Auto Pilot and therefore it can't be used to maintain a wind relative course. I'm seriously considering putting together a whole system based on Raymarine's E-80, ST-60 instruments, the 125 GPS and an 18" radome radar with maybe a fish-finder GSM-300. It seems like (after much web based and in store research) Raymarine has the only system capable of integrating all this data. However, I'd really like to see it all playing together to try and evaluate the usefullness of all this and the readability and "see ability" of the display. Is there any place I can see a real demo of all this stuff? I'm not looking for something as elaborate as a sail on a real boat. I'd even settle for a decent video based demo (however a real "hands on" demo would be best). I just can't seem to get a handle on where I might see this. Begin Rant: It seems that a company like Raymarine would put some kind of useful demo together to induce people to spend this kind of money. End Rant. Short of a demo, opinions and observations from anyone who has such a system (and really uses it) would be most welcome. Please, either email or post whatever opinions and impressions you have. Thanks, -Smitty
Multi Displays
- Thread starter Smitty
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Some feedback
I have: ST4000 Autopilot Raytech Navigator on a Toshiba laptop. GPS 125 Navman Wind Navman Depth Navman Speed They all talk to each to some degree after many hours of trials using a SeaTalk to RS232 and NMEA box, a NMEA multiplexer, and serial<>USB connector. If I had gone with all Raymarine components it would have been plug and play. A combination chartplotter that overlays radar and controls the autopilot is a good deal. Having only one display is ok until it fails. Separate displays for chartplotter and radar provide emergency back-up. I'd consider a Radar display at the nav station and the combo display in the cockpit. Another option would be to use a laptop running RayTech Navigator at the nav station. It would back up both the chartplotter and the radar displays. Building a system all from one manufacturer makes very good sense as long as you can get all the functions you want. There is no finger pointing when one part won't talk to another. I've found RayTech's support to be good. They even took parts of the shelf to test configurations in an effort to answer one of my questions.
I have: ST4000 Autopilot Raytech Navigator on a Toshiba laptop. GPS 125 Navman Wind Navman Depth Navman Speed They all talk to each to some degree after many hours of trials using a SeaTalk to RS232 and NMEA box, a NMEA multiplexer, and serial<>USB connector. If I had gone with all Raymarine components it would have been plug and play. A combination chartplotter that overlays radar and controls the autopilot is a good deal. Having only one display is ok until it fails. Separate displays for chartplotter and radar provide emergency back-up. I'd consider a Radar display at the nav station and the combo display in the cockpit. Another option would be to use a laptop running RayTech Navigator at the nav station. It would back up both the chartplotter and the radar displays. Building a system all from one manufacturer makes very good sense as long as you can get all the functions you want. There is no finger pointing when one part won't talk to another. I've found RayTech's support to be good. They even took parts of the shelf to test configurations in an effort to answer one of my questions.
Why so much?
I know that I live away back in the past but I don't understand the need for more than a depthfinder and a magnetic compass. I admit to an old Loran and will probably get a low end GPS someday, but those are toys and I can find my way home from where ever and when ever without them.
I know that I live away back in the past but I don't understand the need for more than a depthfinder and a magnetic compass. I admit to an old Loran and will probably get a low end GPS someday, but those are toys and I can find my way home from where ever and when ever without them.
Yeah, I thought
I'd use a Seatalk<->RS232 box and the Raytech software to let a laptop function as a display at the "nav station". That would give me some backup and an "inside" capability. One of the strengths of the E series is the ability to use multiple displays if desired. Thanks for the feedback. It's good to hear some positive about the tech support. There's a lot of negative commentary about the Raymarine support on the web. Are Raymarine and Raytech "joined at the hip" (or at least similar philosophically) as far as support is concerned? -Smitty
I'd use a Seatalk<->RS232 box and the Raytech software to let a laptop function as a display at the "nav station". That would give me some backup and an "inside" capability. One of the strengths of the E series is the ability to use multiple displays if desired. Thanks for the feedback. It's good to hear some positive about the tech support. There's a lot of negative commentary about the Raymarine support on the web. Are Raymarine and Raytech "joined at the hip" (or at least similar philosophically) as far as support is concerned? -Smitty
Why not? 
I have the toys to make good navigation and piloting easier. I have back-ups for all systems. I like trimming, I don't care to spend hours at the tiller unless I'm racing. Auto can drive 95% of the time, although blind, his concentration is very good, he doesn't eat much and is never drunk. He drives, I trim. The software is my navigation officer. Like Auto he is always awake. He takes and records position every second rather than every 15-30 minutes. I would never give crew (human or silicone) a job that I cannot do myself. I will certainly allow crew to drive or navigate, all I have to do is monitor their performance. I tend to have crew do what they are good at. Auto is a better helmsman than many humans. My Nav guy is dedicated, fast, and accurate. Like any crew, my robots share the workload and make sailing safer and more enjoyable for me.
I have the toys to make good navigation and piloting easier. I have back-ups for all systems. I like trimming, I don't care to spend hours at the tiller unless I'm racing. Auto can drive 95% of the time, although blind, his concentration is very good, he doesn't eat much and is never drunk.
He drives, I trim. The software is my navigation officer. Like Auto he is always awake. He takes and records position every second rather than every 15-30 minutes. I would never give crew (human or silicone) a job that I cannot do myself. I will certainly allow crew to drive or navigate, all I have to do is monitor their performance. I tend to have crew do what they are good at. Auto is a better helmsman than many humans. My Nav guy is dedicated, fast, and accurate. Like any crew, my robots share the workload and make sailing safer and more enjoyable for me.Sailboat Instruments
I also am in the same quagmire with aged Signet Instruments, Depth, Speed, Wind Direction, and Wind Speed. The Speed does not work. The speed sensor tests ok by putting out the A-C voltage. The Wind Speed and Direction work directly with the masthead wind vane; preliminary continuity tests indicate the mast wiring may have one broken wire. The Wind Vane also needs new bearings. Signet will test all the instruments and quote a repair. The question is do we put money into 20 year instruments that do not communicate with each other; the mast cable alone is $171, with total est with new covers, mounting rings, wind vane bearings, getting close to $500 or do we invest in new technology. New technology would include the Navman 31XX series, $1,000, Raymarine ST60 w/ repeater, $1,600, Raymarine ST290, dream only, B&G, Nexus NX2, and Tack Tick Micronet Wireless Instruments. I too would like to touch and feel the instruments before I decide which models to invest. I will have to continue to make phone calls, talk to other boaters, read posts, and have to wait for the All Sail Show in Chicago in February 2006. I would really like to make a decision before The All Sail Show.
I also am in the same quagmire with aged Signet Instruments, Depth, Speed, Wind Direction, and Wind Speed. The Speed does not work. The speed sensor tests ok by putting out the A-C voltage. The Wind Speed and Direction work directly with the masthead wind vane; preliminary continuity tests indicate the mast wiring may have one broken wire. The Wind Vane also needs new bearings. Signet will test all the instruments and quote a repair. The question is do we put money into 20 year instruments that do not communicate with each other; the mast cable alone is $171, with total est with new covers, mounting rings, wind vane bearings, getting close to $500 or do we invest in new technology. New technology would include the Navman 31XX series, $1,000, Raymarine ST60 w/ repeater, $1,600, Raymarine ST290, dream only, B&G, Nexus NX2, and Tack Tick Micronet Wireless Instruments. I too would like to touch and feel the instruments before I decide which models to invest. I will have to continue to make phone calls, talk to other boaters, read posts, and have to wait for the All Sail Show in Chicago in February 2006. I would really like to make a decision before The All Sail Show.
Navman Instruments
Rick, I have had the Navman instruments for two seasons and love them. They have performed beyond my expectations. BTW - I have the 3150 analog wind readout. Ellis
Rick, I have had the Navman instruments for two seasons and love them. They have performed beyond my expectations. BTW - I have the 3150 analog wind readout. Ellis
Sailboat Instruments
I sail with someone who has several of the Nvaman 31xx series instruments and the bezels cracked. During my investigation with the manufacturers, I asked Navman about this problem and was advised that they knew it was a problem, changed the glue, and would repair any bezels if the instrument was still in the warranty period. Since my friend's instrument is outside the warranty period, they will not repair the bezel w/o charge.
I sail with someone who has several of the Nvaman 31xx series instruments and the bezels cracked. During my investigation with the manufacturers, I asked Navman about this problem and was advised that they knew it was a problem, changed the glue, and would repair any bezels if the instrument was still in the warranty period. Since my friend's instrument is outside the warranty period, they will not repair the bezel w/o charge.
Rick, I don't know
if you know about this, but I'll offer it anyway. At the moment, Raymarine is offering a "sail pack" of ST 60 instruments (wind speed/direction, speed and depth) as a package. Pyacht and Defender (and probably others) heve it for $1100 - $1200. West Marine says they'll meet any legitimately advertised price, so I guess you can get it from them for that price also. It seems like a pretty good deal. One thing to watch out for, if you have Signet stuff, is the size of the cutouts for the displays on the ST-60 stuff is smaller than the Signet displays, by quite a bit. The transducers are bigger, and I haven't yet figured out how best to make the through hull holes bigger without overdoing it. So. upgrading won't be trivial. However, with the ST-60 stuff, they can communicate with each other and other parts of a system using either SeaTalk or NMEA. Let me know if you find a way to see and touch first. That would be really great. -Smitty
if you know about this, but I'll offer it anyway. At the moment, Raymarine is offering a "sail pack" of ST 60 instruments (wind speed/direction, speed and depth) as a package. Pyacht and Defender (and probably others) heve it for $1100 - $1200. West Marine says they'll meet any legitimately advertised price, so I guess you can get it from them for that price also. It seems like a pretty good deal. One thing to watch out for, if you have Signet stuff, is the size of the cutouts for the displays on the ST-60 stuff is smaller than the Signet displays, by quite a bit. The transducers are bigger, and I haven't yet figured out how best to make the through hull holes bigger without overdoing it. So. upgrading won't be trivial. However, with the ST-60 stuff, they can communicate with each other and other parts of a system using either SeaTalk or NMEA. Let me know if you find a way to see and touch first. That would be really great. -Smitty
Raymarine System
Smitty, I have a C80 Multifunction Display with an ST60 Speed-Depth-Wind,St4000+ Autopilot,120 GPS and 2Kw radome. We have the C80, ST60 Tridata, St60 Wind and ST4000 all at the helm. It's a nice setup and having radar overlay on the chart is great. I did the installation over two seasons, ST60 and ST4000 first year and C80 GPS and Radar the second year. After a few "teething problems" it is operating seamlessly. All the data you could ask for is at the helm. It's very readable and it had an easy learning curve for the common functions, (I'm still finding new things it can do). Having the autopilot able to steer to wind is great. I don't know if the "E" series display is worth the extra money unless you need displays in two locations.
Smitty, I have a C80 Multifunction Display with an ST60 Speed-Depth-Wind,St4000+ Autopilot,120 GPS and 2Kw radome. We have the C80, ST60 Tridata, St60 Wind and ST4000 all at the helm. It's a nice setup and having radar overlay on the chart is great. I did the installation over two seasons, ST60 and ST4000 first year and C80 GPS and Radar the second year. After a few "teething problems" it is operating seamlessly. All the data you could ask for is at the helm. It's very readable and it had an easy learning curve for the common functions, (I'm still finding new things it can do). Having the autopilot able to steer to wind is great. I don't know if the "E" series display is worth the extra money unless you need displays in two locations.
Re: Navman Instruments
I have the 3150 Navman Wind also. I was/am upset about my choice. Before I bought it, the specs said it outputs Relative Wind Speed and Angle, True Wind Speed and Angle, and VMG. The NMEA sentences should have been: MWV - Wind Speed and Angle VPW - Speed - Measured Parallel to Wind VWR - Relative Wind Speed and Angle VWT - True Wind Speed and Angle What it outputs are only MWV and VPW. When the display is cycled to read Apparent Wind the information in the MWV sentence is Apparent(Relative), when displaying True information, the Navman Repeater displays True, the MWV sentence does not change. Other instruments must calculate VWR and VWT from MWV and VHW (water speed). MWV outputs the wind angle as 0-360 degrees. VWR/T output the wind angle as +/- 180 degrees. I need both sentences for tactical software. When I contacted Navman asking about the NMEA outputs I did not get very far ... they have since changed the manual and specs to show only MWV and VPW. I really don't want to have to change a brand new instrument for one that has the outputs I need. I'm looking into the Ockam box to pre-process the data for the Tactical display. If I had it to do over again I'd use all Raymarine, B&G or Ockam to avoid the headaches. As a stand alone and as part of the autopilot system the Navman 3150 works very well.
I have the 3150 Navman Wind also. I was/am upset about my choice. Before I bought it, the specs said it outputs Relative Wind Speed and Angle, True Wind Speed and Angle, and VMG. The NMEA sentences should have been: MWV - Wind Speed and Angle VPW - Speed - Measured Parallel to Wind VWR - Relative Wind Speed and Angle VWT - True Wind Speed and Angle What it outputs are only MWV and VPW. When the display is cycled to read Apparent Wind the information in the MWV sentence is Apparent(Relative), when displaying True information, the Navman Repeater displays True, the MWV sentence does not change. Other instruments must calculate VWR and VWT from MWV and VHW (water speed). MWV outputs the wind angle as 0-360 degrees. VWR/T output the wind angle as +/- 180 degrees. I need both sentences for tactical software. When I contacted Navman asking about the NMEA outputs I did not get very far ... they have since changed the manual and specs to show only MWV and VPW. I really don't want to have to change a brand new instrument for one that has the outputs I need. I'm looking into the Ockam box to pre-process the data for the Tactical display. If I had it to do over again I'd use all Raymarine, B&G or Ockam to avoid the headaches. As a stand alone and as part of the autopilot system the Navman 3150 works very well.
Thanks Joseph,
That's really great input. I don't "need" 2 displays, I'm just thinking that not precluding the possibility would be a good idea. How did you mount all the displays at the helm? Did you use the Edson mounts or something else? Sorry, one more question. Why the TriData at the helm? Doesn't the C80 have an instrument display panel? I figured I'd mount the ST-60 displays on the cockpit bulkhead so others could see them and I'd use the instrument display on the E-80. -Smitty
That's really great input. I don't "need" 2 displays, I'm just thinking that not precluding the possibility would be a good idea. How did you mount all the displays at the helm? Did you use the Edson mounts or something else? Sorry, one more question. Why the TriData at the helm? Doesn't the C80 have an instrument display panel? I figured I'd mount the ST-60 displays on the cockpit bulkhead so others could see them and I'd use the instrument display on the E-80. -Smitty
You got me looking around
Thanks for the heads up Moody. Your reply got me looking for info on Ockam and B&G. Apparently neither of them offers a chartplotter/multi-function display kind of thing. However, chasing them got me to Chicago Marine Electronics which, in turn, led me to Simrad. Apparently they offer "NavStaion" systems which seem to have most, if not all, the same capabilities as the Raymarine systems. Anyone have any experience with the Simrad "NavStation" gear? Does it have the same capabilities as a Raymarine "E" system? How about support and "seamless" interoperability of the pieces? One factor on the Simrad side (in my opinion) is C-Map vs. Navionics cartography. Raymarine limits you to Navionics. -Smitty
Thanks for the heads up Moody. Your reply got me looking for info on Ockam and B&G. Apparently neither of them offers a chartplotter/multi-function display kind of thing. However, chasing them got me to Chicago Marine Electronics which, in turn, led me to Simrad. Apparently they offer "NavStaion" systems which seem to have most, if not all, the same capabilities as the Raymarine systems. Anyone have any experience with the Simrad "NavStation" gear? Does it have the same capabilities as a Raymarine "E" system? How about support and "seamless" interoperability of the pieces? One factor on the Simrad side (in my opinion) is C-Map vs. Navionics cartography. Raymarine limits you to Navionics. -Smitty
how come no one is talking about Garmin
Garmin has multifunction displays. Just wondering?? Jim S/V Java
Garmin has multifunction displays. Just wondering?? Jim S/V Java
Sailboat Instruments
I was planning on taking a sheet of white 1/2" PVC plastic and cutting it to a size one inch larger than the Signet cutouts and rabbiting the edge to the Signet cutout at the depth of the bulkhead thickness. Next I was planning on Epoxying the PVC into the inside bulkhead, filling any spaces w/ White Martex and Gelcoat filler. The shaping would be performed with a router. Before mounting however, holes would be cut in the center with a hole saw on the drill press. This way, the holes should be centered in the existing cutout. I would also use a hole saw on an electric drill to cut hole for the speed and depth sensor. I am open for ideas if anyone has a better suggestion on the installation. I still am trying to justify putting more money into the 20 year old Signet instruments vs. new instruments.
I was planning on taking a sheet of white 1/2" PVC plastic and cutting it to a size one inch larger than the Signet cutouts and rabbiting the edge to the Signet cutout at the depth of the bulkhead thickness. Next I was planning on Epoxying the PVC into the inside bulkhead, filling any spaces w/ White Martex and Gelcoat filler. The shaping would be performed with a router. Before mounting however, holes would be cut in the center with a hole saw on the drill press. This way, the holes should be centered in the existing cutout. I would also use a hole saw on an electric drill to cut hole for the speed and depth sensor. I am open for ideas if anyone has a better suggestion on the installation. I still am trying to justify putting more money into the 20 year old Signet instruments vs. new instruments.
RayTech Nav software
One reason that I would tend to go with Raymarine is the RayTech software. It does not do some things as well as other packages (like the Visual Navigation Suite) but it does a couple of things that the other software I've looked at does not do. Racing Tactics and Weather Routing I can live without the full function of the Race display (needs that pesky VWR sentence) but the weather routing piece is a jewel. You can input your boat's polar data and download the weather forecast. The software will look at the polars and the weather data and create an optimum route based on your boat's performance at different wind speeds and angles. RayMarine bought the software from Kiwi-Tech. The Kiwi-Tech code was used on AC boats and Whitbread boats. Remember the graphics during the cup races? That was Kiwi-Tech. When it is all setup properly it can display upwind and downwind laylines for *your* boat using real time data. Things like, when do I gybe to get to point X quickly. It also has a data recorder function that lets you calibrate your instruments and create polars. Want to know if the 150 or the Gennaker is faster? Try them both and compare VMG. When you compare test data with your polar, you can adjust the polar to fit *your* boat. You can add notes to the database so you can always duplicate settings that work. It will display apparent windspeed and target boatspeed to the next waypoint or mark so you can select the right sail for the next leg. How many times have you guessed wrong on the downwind only to find that you hoisted the wrong headsail for the next leg? While the RayTech software does many things very well it is also stupid in other ways. It cannot compute current set and drift, it can display the values if another part of the system provides it. Lucky for you, the RayMarine chart plotters output real time set and drift. My entire system has been built to take advantage of the RayTech software. That's why I'm kicking myself over the choice of Navman over RayMarine for the wind instrument. Another plus for RayMarine over Ockam, B&G and Simrad is value. The CPU for an Ockam system is $6000! You get to add displays and sensors on top of that. A full house B&G system can run $25,000. The Raymarine stuff is available from more dealers, so any down time should be shorter. The biggest issue I've had is the lack of real technical knowledge of 1st tier support staff. Once I got their attention RayMarine was great, Navman never got it. FWIW- Navman built the Standard and West Marine Branded instruments. The advantage of the Navman branded instruments is the NavBus. The Standard and West Marine brands only do NMEA. Jeeze ... I sound like a geek .... sorry
One reason that I would tend to go with Raymarine is the RayTech software. It does not do some things as well as other packages (like the Visual Navigation Suite) but it does a couple of things that the other software I've looked at does not do. Racing Tactics and Weather Routing I can live without the full function of the Race display (needs that pesky VWR sentence) but the weather routing piece is a jewel. You can input your boat's polar data and download the weather forecast. The software will look at the polars and the weather data and create an optimum route based on your boat's performance at different wind speeds and angles. RayMarine bought the software from Kiwi-Tech. The Kiwi-Tech code was used on AC boats and Whitbread boats. Remember the graphics during the cup races? That was Kiwi-Tech. When it is all setup properly it can display upwind and downwind laylines for *your* boat using real time data. Things like, when do I gybe to get to point X quickly. It also has a data recorder function that lets you calibrate your instruments and create polars. Want to know if the 150 or the Gennaker is faster? Try them both and compare VMG. When you compare test data with your polar, you can adjust the polar to fit *your* boat. You can add notes to the database so you can always duplicate settings that work. It will display apparent windspeed and target boatspeed to the next waypoint or mark so you can select the right sail for the next leg. How many times have you guessed wrong on the downwind only to find that you hoisted the wrong headsail for the next leg? While the RayTech software does many things very well it is also stupid in other ways. It cannot compute current set and drift, it can display the values if another part of the system provides it. Lucky for you, the RayMarine chart plotters output real time set and drift. My entire system has been built to take advantage of the RayTech software. That's why I'm kicking myself over the choice of Navman over RayMarine for the wind instrument. Another plus for RayMarine over Ockam, B&G and Simrad is value. The CPU for an Ockam system is $6000! You get to add displays and sensors on top of that. A full house B&G system can run $25,000. The Raymarine stuff is available from more dealers, so any down time should be shorter. The biggest issue I've had is the lack of real technical knowledge of 1st tier support staff. Once I got their attention RayMarine was great, Navman never got it. FWIW- Navman built the Standard and West Marine Branded instruments. The advantage of the Navman branded instruments is the NavBus. The Standard and West Marine brands only do NMEA. Jeeze ... I sound like a geek .... sorry
Raymarine C80 question and comments
We have a C80 with Raymarine wind, depth, speed, and autopilot. In the first year of use, it has worked almost flawlessly (we had to "reboot" twice when the system was getting no GPS data: that was the only problem). One plus: we've never run aground once while sailing in the Chesapeake, where there are plenty of shallow spots. It's a huge plus having all your nav data right in front of the helm. A question for others with the C80: all data is displayed on the screen, except for depth. Our depth readout is a bit hidden under the C80. Can you add this info to the C80 readout? A second question: the ST60 wind has relative and true wind, but it seems to compute the relative using speed data from the paddle-wheel, rather than the more accurate GPS speed. Which means you don't get relative wind when the paddle-wheel transducer isn't in place. Can you change which source the wind instrument uses for speed input? Thanks, Jay
We have a C80 with Raymarine wind, depth, speed, and autopilot. In the first year of use, it has worked almost flawlessly (we had to "reboot" twice when the system was getting no GPS data: that was the only problem). One plus: we've never run aground once while sailing in the Chesapeake, where there are plenty of shallow spots. It's a huge plus having all your nav data right in front of the helm. A question for others with the C80: all data is displayed on the screen, except for depth. Our depth readout is a bit hidden under the C80. Can you add this info to the C80 readout? A second question: the ST60 wind has relative and true wind, but it seems to compute the relative using speed data from the paddle-wheel, rather than the more accurate GPS speed. Which means you don't get relative wind when the paddle-wheel transducer isn't in place. Can you change which source the wind instrument uses for speed input? Thanks, Jay
ST60 Fustration
I asked the Raymarine technical support how to use COG & SOG in the ST60 Wind Machine, they told me can't be done. I am asking that they upgrade their software. Please contact them also, maybe if enough people ask for TRUE true wind, they will respond. Dan
I asked the Raymarine technical support how to use COG & SOG in the ST60 Wind Machine, they told me can't be done. I am asking that they upgrade their software. Please contact them also, maybe if enough people ask for TRUE true wind, they will respond. Dan
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