Motor Sailing In Aggressive Conditions

Stu Jackson · Jan 7, 2015

NICK1951 said:
I try to not reef either sail.

Nick, why? With a masthead rig, we reef the main first. I was out in those kind of conditions recently with a 110 jib, single reef in the main. Not sure why you're motoring when in those conditions. We dropped to a second reef. Then furled some jib, kept going. Shorten sail, not the jib first generally.

Joe · Jan 7, 2015

NICK1951 said:
I do not pay much attention to telltails

......

Occasionally, the canoe bottom will come down the back of a wave with a huge thud, we try to mitigate this by reducing engine RPMs.

MY MUSINGS:

I try to not reef either sail. Heading 20 degrees off the wind does not over power the boat. We heel about 15 degrees. I think this approach improves lift. If I need to reef, I will take 3 twists on the head sail furler, before reefing the main sail. The head sail has a luff pad. The head sail is furled first since I feel the mainsail is a better pointing sail.

Nick

Tell tales.......... use them.. That's why you've pulled everything tight... the engine is distorting the apparent wind, so...

Turn off the engine... and sail in that glorious wind.

Trim the sails to what nature gives you. Reef the main first... if you're uncomfortable.

If you're motorsailing... you're not really sailing... so just flatten the sails and power on... When I'm under power I drop the headsail and reef the main.. A reefed main helps keep the boat stable ... Pointing? You're under power.... you can point directly into the wind.

Don Guillette · Jan 8, 2015

Nick: Thank you for purchasing my book. I had to keep it simple because, as a common seaman, it was the only way I could understand sail trim!!

Joe & Stu, as always, make good points -- also we wouldn't mind coming down to Puerto Rico and sailing with you to St. Thomas!! The only time I sailed in those waters was a short sail on the America Cup boats in St. Martins, which was a blast because I got to drive the boat about 5 miles back to the dock after the race. In April, we'll be in the southern Caribbean for 14 days on a cruise ship, which is not the same as sailing.

Anyway, the way I set my boat just prior to reefing is exactly as you've described. Prior to that setup I've tried inducing twist etc and when that didn't work I de-powered the sails by by making them as flat as possible. That's the point you're at in your description.

Let's say your still overpowered and your not comfortable so we have to do something. If Joe, Stu and I were with you we would NOT suggest starting the engine. We'd huddle and this would be MY suggestion -- whether they'd buy my suggestion I don't know. I'd try one reef in the main. The 130 jib is not that powerful but I'd suggest a couple of rolls. While Joe and Stu are still thinking I'd call RichH on my satellite phone and see what he suggests!!

PS: Review the 7 pages on telltales - they are the most important sail trim indicator on the boat. I don't know how mates trim their sails without them. I can't and I know what I'm looking for!!

PPS: The engine of your boat (masthead rig) is the jib. The mainsail is like a giant barn door that acts like a rudder, which wants to throw you off course.

Stu Jackson · Jan 8, 2015

In addition to Don's reply & Joe's, it just occurred to me that one of the reasons your "canoe" is shaking when it comes off a wave is that you're heading too much directly into them. Sailboats, especially one as nice as yours, is designed to sail. I spend a lot of time here on SF Bay in the windy summertime wondering why there is always a handful of skippers who choose to bash headfirst into the wind, when we're sailing along quite comfortably and very happy with a 110 and a single reef in the main [>) in just the conditions you describe.

Don Guillette · Jan 8, 2015

Well, you're probably right about motoring with the mainsail in aggressive conditions (which is the topic) but we maybe got sidetracked because we are suggesting a way to "sail through" the situation. Personally, I don't know a lot about motor sailing in those conditions because they don't exist in So Ca -- the only time I've ever motor sailed was when there is no wind and I'm stuck. I sailed (mostly motored) in 3 Newport to Ensenada races - trying to sleep next to that silly engine was awful. I can still hear it!! There's nothing like listening to the wind in the rigging.

Inducing twist is the second to last function I use to de-power both the main and jib. The problem with twist is the top 1/3 is spilling air but the bottom 2/3 is still driving. The last resort is to flatten both sails. If that doesn't work, then I'd roll up the jib and reef the main. Last resort is bare poles and start the engine.

Depending on the experience level of the entire crew (skipper to trimmers), it's amazing what an experienced crew can do with a boat. My best example is a C30 National Regatta in Santa Cruz, Ca -- 40 knots of wind (I don't know how those folks sail in that stuff but they do - the San Fran C30 regatta was another wind experience) and no one was reefed. Some boats were damaged. On my best day I wouldn't go out in those condition on my own but I never thought twice about it with the team I was sailing with -- 6 guys from all over the US. We came in second by half a boat length. That exciting regatta was years ago but I remember it like it was yesterday.

RichH · Jan 8, 2015

Nick is motor-sailing in an area reknown for the Caribbean 'two step' ... one step forward, one step to the side.
This is trade wind sailing / motor-sailing and going East or North east in predominant 20-30kt. winds, PLUS a 1.5kt current on the nose on TOP of large ocean swells is not fun and really requires 'special handling' if one expects to go anywhere 'upwind' ... today or even tomorrow - in steep chop with deep troughs. Worse if one is travelling between some of the deepest canyons and deepest sea trenches of the Atlantic ... right next to shallow island 'mounts' (mesas) and where the current is upwelling as fast as 'oncoming'.
Going downwind and with the current at your back ... sheer exhilarating joy! Upwind - can be a miserable 'slog'.

Set up for beating (no motor).
•Use smaller yankee cut jib or smaller 100-120 LP genoa if conditions warrant. Lots of halyard tension to open the leech and bring the max. draft FORWARD, fairlead set a little aft ---- but dont let the head of the sail continually stall then Snap when the boat 'pitches' - try to keep the head section of the sail a bit 'quiet' but do not bear off to do so, try resetting the fairlead a bit more forward, first. Increased backstay tension so you dont get a large 'sag' in the forestay wire is almost mandatory.
Large genoas on roller furling are inefficient for 'wave sailing' ----- when rolled-in more than about 25%-30% ... as only the flat shapes are exposed (Same for in-mast furling). Flat is fine when in flat water (small waves) and going downwind.
•Tell tales will be mostly 'confused' due to the pitching and rolling.
• Dont expect a genoa rolled up more than 25% on a furler to deliver any 'power' to bust through waves. Use a smaller LP headsail if you have one. BIG genoas are for 'downwind' in the Caribb.
Dont gorilla tighten the jib sheets ... just enough to set the sail, but not so much tension that the forestay is now showing a very increased 'sag' .. and the leech of the jib remains somewhat parallel to the boats centerline .. NOT cupped up towards the windward side.
• Mainsail - full draft to output POWER to punch-through. If reefed or deep reefed ... add POWER shape by NOT fully tensioning reef position outhaul.
How much outhaul tension? set the amount of outhaul tension to get the max. speed (paddle wheel speedometer) out of the boat for 'todays conditions' ... adjust back and forth until you get max. forward speed for beating. If reefed, use a 'powered up' shape (with increased draft) to help 'punch' through the steep waves: ... set amount of draft as per above to get max. average speed for the conditions (even when reefed or deep reefed!!!!)
•Keep boat heel to a reasonable minimum ... prevents the windward side bow from being impacted by oncoming waves which will tend to drive/steer the boat off course and more down wind - this is part 2 of the 'two step'. Part 1 is burying the bow into the face of am oncoming wave that stops the boat.
•Same rules apply for mainsheet tension ... dont overtension the mainsheet so that the leech begins to 'cup up' towards windward ... the leech should be parallel to the boats centerline.
•Go up the face of a wave at an angle, turn back or tack on the very top of a wave, go down the backside at an angle .... how much angle? enough so the bow doesnt bury itself in face of next wave and stops or noticeably slow the the boat. If you do this 'right', you'll be steering a soft 'S' course for each wave period.
•Watch your average VMG to your upwind waypoint - if you understand and have VMG on your chartplotter. If not use your ETA - estimated time of arrival and keep in mind the 'trend' of ETA as you go ... always striving to arrive at the listed ETA when you first started.
• If because of wave impact and onsetting current conditions your boat cannot tack through 100-110° on the compass .... consider to motor sail.
•The Caribbean "Two Step" when 'beating into it' will reduce the tacking angle from a 'normal' 80-90 degrees to a dismal 100-110 degrees. Most boats will lose 20° of tacking angle when doing the Caribb 2-step.
•At a tacking angle of greater than 100° without the engine giving a 'help' of few rpm, youre not going anywhere with any sensible speed.

Set up for motor sailing .... the engine is delivering low rpm to 'help' forward motion.
Be sure you know at what angle of heel your engine stops lubricating itself !!!!!!!!! 'nuff said.

•Smallish jib (as above) ... set up is FLAT AS POSSIBLE. 'Normal' halyard tension. Move the fairleads inboard if possible. DO NOT gorilla-tighten the jibsheets on a winch - will cause the forestay to sag which move the draft in the jib to aft and the leech to 'cup up'. Just enough jibsheet tension so that the sag in the forestay wire is a reasonable approx. 6-7" of sag to leeward.
•Mainsail - FLAT as you can make it: outhaul is TIGHT, Halyard is 'normal' but if you have a cunningham pull it tight enough so that a crease begins forms along the luff, then back off tension until the crease begins to 'soften'. This will allow a higher pointing angle at the higher boatspeed .... it will also cause the leech to 'open' for more reduced heel. Watch the leech section of the mainsail the end/aft section should be somewhat parallel to the boats centerline when you set the mainsheet tension. Traveller on centerline - if this causes too much heel, then reef. Dont drop the traveller when motorsailing and beating into it, if possible.
•Too much mainsail draft will lessen the ability to point when the motor is 'assisting' and causing the apparent wind to increase.
•1000 to 1200 engine rpm on most cruising boats is usually sufficient to keep up a tight tacking angle and a decent tack leg direction.

•••The reduction of tacking angles due to the "2-step" will sometimes cause a 20-25% slowdown in speed TO the direct upwind waypoint (VMG) and will cause approx. 20-25% MORE distance (COG) needed to be travelled. Motor sailing with a wee bit of rpm is great way to regain those 'decent' tacking angles.

You can monitor the tell tales ... but youre going to have to 'average' them in your mind as the boat will inevitably be wildly pitching and rolling and the tell tales will be going in circles due to the relative motion of the boat, especially at near the head of the sails and that mast top will be going forwards and sometimes backwards in relation to the 'rest of the boat'.

Enjoy the "2-step", youll get 'used to it'. I prefer to wait for a decent weather window than 'dance the two step', especially when the 'enhanced trades' are blowing for weeks at a time and I need to go upwind.
BTW/FWIW make SURE your fuel tank is clean and doesnt have 'crud' growing on its wall.

Hope this helps.

RichH · Jan 9, 2015

Forgot to mention....

.... these type of wind/water conditions will eventually shred a sail that is 'over-twisted'. For such conditions while pitching, yawing, and rolling (sometimes simultaneously) its usually better to use smaller or reefed (and powered-up) sails so that the 'whole sail' can be drawing but not driving the boat to 'excess'. In such conditions I think its better to 'blade out' a smaller sail than to watch the destruction of a larger sail thats twisted off and flogging, shaking, fluttering, powering up when you dont want it to and not providing power when you want it to ... because the 'attachment of wind' to such a twisted up sail and attitude of the boat to such conditions .... is so 'variable' and instantly changing and sometimes with little to NO 'regularity' of timing.
In such conditions, I think, its better to simply use the amount of 'twist' that the sailmaker cut into the shape (on a reduced size sail) and not try to outguess it.

RichH · Jan 9, 2015

NICK1951 said:
Short replies/comments in RED
I do not believe this to be a successful strategy for the Beneteau Oceanis 400 for the following reasons:

1. The waves are close together more akin to the great lakes. They are not similar to what one will see in deeper water (ie. large waves spread apart) Exactly what my comments were addressing - short steep chop on top of swells, & especially for 'angling' up and down steep chop faces on top of NE swells.
2. The hull bottom is flat forward of the keel. Beneteaus POUND, cant help it. Without a deep forefoot the bow gets 'blown' to leeward in such viscious short chop. Less sail area jib will help to hold the tacking angle (but dont over-do or you get weather helm and will be dragging the rudder sideways. The rudder/helm pressure should be 'light' to the touch; if not, and you have a slab reefing mainsail .... INCREASE mainsail halyard tension to get the draft 'more forward' for better helm balance.

4. Single furled headsail 130%. For motor sailing, Try rolling to 20-25% 'in' and using a barber hauler to bring the clew IN ... such roll-reefing will open 'the slot DISTANCE'. Ignore slight to moderate 'backwinding' of the mainsail. 'backwinding' only means that slot distance is 'too tight' and a wee bit of 'happy speed-bubble' backwind is OK ... actually, a visible sign that the slot distance is 'near perfect'.

5. No backstay adjustment. However, it is a double spreader rig. Lee shrouds and forestay slack is negligible. & 6. I need more than 100 degrees to tack. Expect a 15-20° tack angle DECREASE in the 2-step. If youre only tacking @ 100° in 'normal' conditions, then something is definitely WRONG on a B40 .... highest probability is the boat is 'skidding' off to leewards (at increased heel) due to a too slack forestay ... if so, then only remedy is to tighten the backstay(s) (or add running backstays if you have them) .. other causes - unbalanced sail plan, probably too much sail area up, jib leech too close to mainsail for the wind speed, etc..
Skidding??? - Look at the rudder/keel turbulence in the stern wake when beating ... if its coming off the stern at a 'noticeable angle', Tighten that BACKSTAY(S) (but not greater than 20% on a single backstay rig) and loosen up a bit on the jibsheets while watching the sag in the forestay, reef down the headsail and/OR use LESS jib sheet tension.

Motor Sailing
<snip>

Forestay sag- This is not something I have noticed, previously. I assume you measure forestay sag by sight and when you have it you know it. Is it possible a double swept back spreader rig minimizes the issue of forestay sag? On a boat such as yours any sag that is more than about 6+" is probably going to cause a skid to leewards. See above - stern wake, etc. To check sag, go forward, stand facing the centerline, then look up and determine the amount of fore/aft sag, ditto from cockpit to check looking along the boats centerline AND to check that the jibs leech is not being 'cupped up' to windward caused by the forestay sag. Again, leeches MUST be flat and ~parallel to the centerline when beating ... or youre not going anywhere fast, nor on a high tack angle. Properly tensioned forestay will promote FLAT leech in the jib.

You did not specifically mention slot. Your comment regarding not gorilla tightening head sheets leads me to believe you might prefer a slightly more open slot than I employ. I keep the head sheets tight. The headsail leach is about 6 inches from the lower spreaders. Obviously, I look for turbulence on the main sail. The higher the wind the more open the slot, the lower the wind speed the slot should be LESS. Use jibsheet tension to contol the amount

My twist was excessive. Yup, you paid your dues in learning the financial disadvantages of trying to control a boat with 'twist'.

Bad fuel, been there done that. Today, I have a primary and secondary fuel filter and have added a vacuum gage between the racor and fuel injection pump. Finally, I inspect the fuel by removing the fuel gage sending unit. The last fuel polish lasted 7 years. It needs to be done again there is a 1/4 inch of sludge on the bottom and probably sides of the tank. "DANGER Will Robinson, DANGER Will Robinson" if youve got visible crud on the tank walls when sailing in the 2-step ...... :-o. In the future, think about a 'high turnover' 2-3 gallon per minute, onboard recirc. filter polisher. Removes the 'angst' when sailing/motoring in the "2-step". If you do have crud break loose, the onboard polisher will restore the fuel in a few+ minutes. Cheaper than a towing bill.

I leave for Puerto Rico tomorrow. TAPAS time! Im envious ;-)
Have a great trip

Benny17441 · Jan 11, 2015

As the local sailors may be able to tell you there is not a good solution to your problem. I can understand that leaving behind the Michigan winter weather at this time of the year is highly desirable but at the same time sailing the Caribbean during this time (you will never hear a chartering company acknowledge it) can be most trying. My solution to avoiding seasonally unfavorable routes is to seek alternative destinations or reposition the boat for the duration. No amount of sail trimming will provide comfortable passage in a reasonable time frame.

RichH · Jan 11, 2015

Good post, Benny17441.
The "Christmas Trades" ('enhanced' NE-E trade winds) usually blow 'stink' from mid-December until at least Mid-February; usually with little let-up for weather windows in between.
One should really be well to the south of ~15-20° latitude for the more 'gentle' SE trades during 'wintertime'; and, to avoid being 'slashed' by the 'northers' that occasionally blow through.

shemandr · Jan 11, 2015

Sorry, wrong quoting.

RichH said:
NICK1951 said:

"DANGER Will Robinson, DANGER Will Robinson"

Click to expand

Lost in Space!

RichH made the original quote.

Don Guillette · Mar 6, 2015

How many of you guys in the north east and other snowbound areas wish you could change places with Nick1951?!?!

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Mar 6, 2015

Me!

Here is what I am dealing with. My boat is in the upper left.