More on experience

[sailaway78]

One thing I didn't notice addressed on Ross's thread about experience. How much importance would you put on experience, before one leaves the dock. Say your embarking on an offshore cruise. Not around the world, but say four or five days. Just where would you rate experience in importance, when making ready to head out. Will tell you up front that for me, it seems extremely so. And just for the sake of the discussion, lets say that you have owned your boat a pretty good while, so it's not an unknown.

 

[Ross]

The best answer I can make for this is the need to

know what you don't know. For example , all of my sailing experience has been in the Chesapeake bay. The easiest way for me to get five days of ocean sailing would be to sail down the Delaware bay and south to the Chesapeake bay entrance and then back up the bay. I have the charts, the time, but not yet the confidence to sail non stop for that distance. There aren't many ports on the atlantic side. I know that if I can sail for six hours then all I have to do is make the trip in six hour segments with no breaks. But I know that I don't know if I can do that. One day I will grab a friend and kiss Nancy on her soft cheek and go, but not yet.

 

[Stu Jackson]

None at all

If that's a criterion, then by logical extension, unless I'm missing something, one would not go at all. What's the difference between a day sail and a three or four day cruise, other than either anchoring or tying up at a different dock? Offshore? Day hops or staying out? If you don't go, how do you get experience?Sorry to answer a question with more, but they can be turned into statements, too.

 

[Doug13108]

Well, you can never have enough

experience, but you're never going to get the kind you need unless you are willing to accept some risks. These guys just completed a circumnavigation after one day of sailing lessons:http://bumfuzzle.com

 

[David10790]

Just did my first extended offshore

From Tortolla BVI to St. Bart's and back - about 120 nm each way. Having previously been pretty much a coastal cruiser, I learned a lot of stuff that 6+ years of boat ownership hadn't taught me. Among the lessons:Sleeping when the lee rail is awash is hard work, particularly when pounding into 6 to 8 foot seas. What they say about getting your rest is correct, but they don't mention how hard it can be. After 24 hours of 3 hours on, 3 hours off, I was beat.Moving around the boat at night on a tether when heeled over and pounding is also hard work. It takes more effort than expected, and everything takes longer - such as reefing.Those charts in the book that help you recognize boats at night? Turns out they are important. Is that a sailboat or a merchantman coming at me? Are we on a collision course or will he cross my bow?Med mooring in Gustavia, St. Barts was also an experince, as was anchoring amongst the mega yachts in Marigot harobur St. Martin.I feel I got more new experience in one week than I got in probably the previous three or four years.

 

[Tim R.]

What type of experience?

Ask anyone who has sailed around the world and they will tell you sailing experince is only a part of what it takes to go offshore for extended periods of time. - Experince in repair of your boat? Something always breaks and you will need a spare or be able to engineer a fix.- Experience reading weather faxes? Crucial in sailing offshore.- Navigation. You better be good at this, especially when your chartplotter goes belly up.- What other things are good to know?Unless, of course, you include these things when judging sailing experience as a whole.Tim R.

 

[Rick D]

I Think You Will Get Experience Soon Enough

IMHO, some experience is important, but you can really overdo it. What is more important is to understand the basics and then get out on the water. Same deal as to boat prep. I think a lot of 'experience' and 'boat prep' issues and concerns are just a surrogate for personal discomfort, lack of confidence and commitment. And, to some degree I include myself in that category. I don't recall the name of the 'kid' in Lats and Atts who took off in his Cal 34 without a lot of special prep although with some experience. (Oh yea, Capt. Woody) But, he's a good example of someone who just did it. You can overdo things in boat size and wind up with something too big to single or double hand too. You just don't learn and grow confidence without pushing yourself beyond comfort levels, and that most certainly applies to sailing. Rick D.

 

[s sauer]

Expperience and Risk Taking

If I could expand upon Ross's statement and Stu's response with an example:A number of 'Captains' in our marina were interested in circumnavigating the peninsula as Ross appears to be. All of us had significant experience in our own boats; some with 'blue water' experience on larger boats. We put together a group of four boats all around 32'-35' in length and all crewed by at least four 'Captains' who left their smaller boats at home.To focus on Stu's question on the difference between a day hop and staying out off shore-- that was the challenge we faced leaving Lewis, Delaware and running 'outside' overnight down to the mouth of the Bay at Norfolk.The challenge became a little serrious as a storm forecast to run up the New Jersey coast north of us, changed course and moved south over our 'fleet' after 3 out of four boats had pased the option of ducking in the inlet at Ocean City, MD. We moved about 10 miles off shore to have sea room and continued south thru the night, motor sailing, then motoring thru the storm which reached fifty knot gusts. After the longest and most intense lightning I've ever experienced, the storm blew out and we continued down to the mouth of the bay with a lot of wet gear - no harm no foul.We had a great time; we would not have done the trip in our individual boats; and everyone at every expeerience level gained a lot from the adventure. The remaining sail back up the Chesapeake Bay was a serries of marina hopping day sails in everything from tedious flat calm to reefed down in steady 25 knot winds-- like Stu said -- same as a day sail--every day.

 

[sailaway78]

Missing the point

Apparently my writing skills are not up to the task. The question is not if you should or should not leave without experience, or how much you actually need to go, but how much importance to you place on experience before you leave the dock. How much more important is it to have done it before, as opposed to reading a few books, or only day sailing previously.

 

[Mike]

Time of legs

Ross, as a reference, the run from Summit North on the C&D would take you apx 9 hrs based on a 6 kt avg speed. It's really not a bad run other than it can get either boring, if there's no wind, or it can get hairy if it's blowing hard out of the S-SE. We make the run to Cape May every year and have seen a little bit of both. It can get rough as you near the mouth as the bay and ocean currents collide and kick up the waves. Last summers run saw close set 4-5 footers apx. 1-2 hrs out of Cape May. If you want to try it go in June before the T Storms become a common occurance. Note there's only one place to duck into and that's the Cohannsey River on the NJ side (have screens the green head flys can carry you away). Delaware Bay will give you a good taste of making a long run and once your half way down you'll struggle to see land. There's enough water depth so you can parallel the channel yet stay away from commercial shipping. Get someone who can make the run with you, do some prep work on charts, weather, tides, etc and give it a shot.Mike

 

[Rick D]

30% Research; 70% Hands -On

Or maybe 40% - 60%. Beats me, it's hard to quantify. I think some research preparation is important so as not to make some stupid mistakes and perhaps more importantly, not make them over and over. OTOH, just getting out and doing it, solving problems, building confidence, and practicing are more important. I mean really, how many books and articles are really useful about anchoring, heavy weather, etc? How many actually differ significantly? Not many. But, actually do it, and the experience is burned in forever. Rick D.

 

[maccauley123]

Get out there

When you feel ready, go. When you personally feel you have enough experience with what you have done so far, read enough books, taken enough courses, get out there. Its an individual decision based on the level of risk each person is willing to take, etc.You will never have enough experience to go because you can't get the experience until you go.

 

[Waffle]

It is all relative

I had been sailing for 25 years when we got the Hunter 28 ten years ago. I didn't feel comfortable bring the boat home myself so I hire a Caption, who was a friend of mine. I consider my experience pretty broad at the time. I was river sailing a San Juan 21 for 20 years. I had just got off a charter with my friends on a 52 foot boat from Mystic to Block Island and back. I had completed a ASA Coast Cruising class with my new friend, the caption that brought the boat home with me. Bottom line, as the caption it is you job to know the limits of your crew. Your crew includes yourself. You also have to know the limit of your vessel. Your crew safety is in your hands. There is NO WAY you can know these limits is to test them. You can't them sailing in protected water. The best advice I can is take experience with you. If you can find a freind with experience that want to go hire a caption, I did. That was the best money I ever spent.

 

[Benny]

Nice and easy I'm not sure what you mean but

the value of experience before leaving the dock in my book is 100%. Before leaving the dock you make your trip plans, route, tides, supplies, weather forecast and backup plans and chances are the more experience you have the better your trip should go. A poorly planned trip can turn into an ordeal real quick if you allow it. I find there is a link between experience and attitude. Even the best laid plans can go afoul but if you have the right attitute (no problem man!) you'll do alright.

 

[Ross]

Benny, I agree with you on the dock side planning.

Poor provisioning can be a disaster. Lyn Pardey has found that half as much meat and twice as much fruit as seems reasonable works about right. She says that they just don't eat as much meat as they think they will and crave more fruit. We go out for several days at a time and provision with non-perishables for a month. When we close the boat up in the fall we make note of what we didn't use and the next year we provision with our new knowledge. Running out of toilet paper or paper towels will make somebody very unhappy. That experience need be only a one time event.

 

[CalebD]

How much does it help to have done it before?

A lot but not everything. You learn a lot about your boat just doing daysails and overnighters on the hook or slip. I love repeating some of the same daysails up and down the Hudson. I also love the challenge of rounding Manhattan up to the Sound on out. I tend to learn more when I push the limits of my sailing area. There is a lot more weather, current, shoals, rocks and waves out there that I have not yet met (I know what I dont know, ya see?). I think there is something to be said about desire as well when making a several day committment to a cruise. You have to want to do it good, bad and ugly and be able to deal with the logistics of it. There is something to be said about perseverence as well in that once you are committed you must be prepared for most of the possible outcomes (alright ALL). This may mean warm clothes, foul weather gear, good ground tackle, the list goes on (this is the stuff that makes me crazy. Do I have the kitchen sink?), and you shove off.I had a nice sailing season last year but two trips I took stretched my boundaries a bit, so to speak. One was leaving the Great South Bay on an ebbing tide which turned the normally complacent 4-6' swell into 10' crests. Once we got past the mini race caused by the tide the Mac 26S cruised over the swell just nicely, thank you. We passed Jones Beach where there was an air show going on and F-1X jets roared over us in formation. We had nothing to fear from the CG as the Navy was already there in the air (we had no life raft which is req'd for outside Colregs demarcation line 32.6.41 etc).The other trip I took around Manhattan and we got hit with a thunder/lightning storm in the East River that rivaled some fireworks displays. We were near the Whitestone Bridge when it got scary and the wind picked up considerably as did the lightning. I had read quite a bit about lightning on boats and there are no clear reccommendations as to what to do except to wrap yourself up inside the rubber inflatable in the cabin. I was with 3 friends who are all good sailors so I left the cockpit and rain so as not to confuse things or get in the way and I decided to eat the last half of my sandwich while the wind whipped the boat and the thunder bellowed around us. What I was doing was trying not to panic and stay out of the rain I suppose. The localized thunderstorm eventually moved off as the booms of thunder and flashes moved farther away. The wind subsided and we had passed through Hell Gate and into the western LI Sound. We did our 50 mile sail in 10 hours or so in a 26' boat and lived to tell about it.Regarding experience, would I go out Fire Island Inlet on an ebb tide with a strong north wind ever again (we had almost no wind meaning the high waves were far enough apart)? Probably not if I could avoid it. I would rather wait for the tide to turn towards slack. Would I go eat my sandwich in the cabin again in a lightning storm? Most definitely. We could have pulled into some small anchorage under an unsafe speed as we had not reefed the main but the owner/captain decided to press on and the storm was short lived and we are still here. Hey, that is one thing I learned from reading books: "Quick to blow up, quick to blow out." or something like that. I guess what I am trying to convey is as other posters have already said is that you learn something every time you go out if you are paying attention but I find myself paying attention a lot more if I am going somewhere I dont always go.Experience is also like a Catch 22. You can read all you want but you will never experience it for yourself unless you actually do it; otherwise it is just a dream. Do it now or, er, soon!Good luck with all your projects.CalebD

 

[letterman]

experience means nothing

You need a college degree to sail offshore. And a MBA to prepare for the job at hand, untie the boat from the slip, and shove off.

 

[Ross]

Letterman, But you need experience to get back.

Any fool can get a degree in something but what they do with it is all that matters.

 

[jeff s]

1985 ofday anniversary 26 ftr

i HAVE HAD NO EXPERIENCE CRUISING ON MY OWN,HOWEVER YERAS AGO I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO THE GREATER ANTILLES ON A 42 OR 44 CSY MID COCKPIT AND HAD A GREAT TIME , GAINED A LOVE FOR SAILING AND GOT A LITTLE EXPERIENCE. A FEW YEARS FOLLOWING THAT WE TOOK OUT A FREEDOM 39 OUT OFR SAG HARBOR L.I.GAINED MORE EXPERIENCE HAD MORE FUN AND BOAT A SMALL DAYSAILOR. TODAY I SAIL A 26 AND WOULD REALLY LIKE TO GET OUT AND CRUISE FOR A FEW DAYS BUT i KNOW i NEED STILL MORE KNOWLEDGE. I CAN ONLY GAIN THAT BY PUSHING MYSELF ,TAKING SOME PILOTING CLASSES AND READING MORE. I DO LEARN BY READING THESE POSTS,SO THANKYOU ALL!!!!!