More of the Same Issues on Scope and "Anchoring"

[Kings Gambit]

So, I've deduced from various readings that a boat lying to a single hook is anchored; whereas, one lying to two hooks is (technically speaking) moored--such as in the well-known Bahamian Moor. I bring this up again b/c of frequently encountering skippers attempting to moor (i.e., to anchor bow and stern) their boats inside the swinging radius of other boats (e.g., mine) already anchored on single hook. This, despite a law that Stu Jackson found and shared w/ us in a thread from last year.

Decision No. 124-5861 (1956) in U.S. Admiralty case law states: “A vessel shall be found at fault if it . . . anchors so close to another vessel as to foul her when swinging . . . (and/or) fails to shift anchorage when dragging dangerously close to another anchored vessel. Furthermore, the vessel that anchored first SHALL warn the one who anchored last that the berth chosen will foul the former’s berth."

Three times over this past week I had to advise skippers of boats attempting to moor too close to me at Santa Cruz Island. One moved a little further away, one gave me the: "I've been anchoring here for over 40 years...", etc., including the bit about having a hundred ton Captain's license but he eventually departed when the skipper of a big power boat also jumped on him, and called him out on the VHF; and another who ignored me completely. I chatted briefly with the skipper and wife who actually moved up some, but who still moored in my radius, when I went over in the dink to fulfill: Furthermore, the vessel that anchored first SHALL warn the one who anchored last that the berth chosen will foul the former’s berth,

They were visiting from out of area. It was their first time in that anchorage, and that friends had told them that boats must use bow & stern anchoring there where we were. I assumed this POV dervied from Fagan's book which describes anchoring close to the rocks for shelter and using a stern anchor to keep from swinging into them. Fine--that's fine. You get there first and wish to "take shelter" that's sensible advice. But if you're not there first, that very "berth" may already be "occupied" by a boat leaving room there to swing toward the rocks w/o hitting 'em instead of mooring there. It's astonishing, really, to hear the perspective of the "foulers." Namely, a boat on a single hook is hogging the anchorage, whereas a moored one somehow is being socially conscious. I pointed out that if he had anchored instead of moored, he would have as much of the anchorage in which to swing as I (i.e., we swing together), but by mooring he forces all boats coming later to stay clear of him by 150 ft or more unless they also moor. Since the first arriving boat has priority and chooses to anchor, the guys coming later and mooring are the "hogs." It loses something in the translation! Anyway, I told them that they had been duly notified of the potential to foul my berth by mooring in that spot. Eventually, they picked up and left as well, not even saying "goodbye!"

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/is-there-such-a-thing-as-too-much-scope.174333/&highlight=Too much scope

 

[Sailm8]

I had a similar experience a month ago at our favorite anchorage. There is room for about 150 boats and a very well founded looking boat anchoring too close to me. I told the skipper I had 90 feet of rode out and he was too close. He said I had too much rode out and should shorten up. Got sort of pissy about it. I declined and told him we had been experiencing stronger than usual evening thunder storms and my scope was appropriate. I pointed out the several boats that drug the night before anchored beyond me.
I really don't know what the big deal is. I would like to know if I was too close to another boat to swing outside his radius. I guess it's an ego thing. He missed out on being invited over for a nice single malt.

 

[Gunni]

There is a general anxiety in this discussion that is underlaid, in part by a lack of confidence in your ground tackle, or it's deployment. That extends to many, if not most weekend cruisers you typically encounter. You need to practice your deployment in conditions similar to what you typically see as an anchorage or you will rightfully have anxiety and the shouting starts.

If you need to have a 10:1 scope to stay hooked you probably have the wrong hook, or system...Or you have very bad weather on the way, bad sea conditions, and are not in particularly good anchorage. You should be able to shorten your scope to 5:1 no problem. If conditions are mild, you may even be able to shorten to 3:1 and avoid the neighbors. But if you are arriving at an anchorage and claiming a ton of space because your ground tackle is marginal, you know it, and want a big margin, then you really are part of the drama. Just saying.

 

[Sandy Stone]

I have never been to Santa Cruz Island, so I know nothing about local conditions or customs. But if you keep having the same issue with many different people - maybe it's not them, it's you.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I have never been to Santa Cruz Island, so I know nothing about local conditions or customs. But if you keep having the same issue with many different people - maybe it's not them, it's you.

Perhaps, but overall there are far more folks who come there that know and respect the rules than those who do not. That one particular day, there were, I believe, 7-9 boats swinging on a single hook nicely spaced and only the one moored in my space. The reason-- I was there first and he wished to be closer to the rocks than anchoring ahead of me would safely allow in swinging room, so he moored instead. Imagine that you have a front row seat to a important game and some guy with his family comes in, but there are no more seats in the front row. So, he plops everybody on the rail in front of you and if you don't like it he says you can just stand up to watch the game.

Also, sitting at a spot for several days sees changes in weather where mooring might not be such a good idea. The one-night overnighters come in, moor in your radius, force you to deploy a stern line in order "to play nice", and then leave the next morning. Leave it down?--pull it up to do it again later? What does a fellow not even there now care if I'm comfortably anchored?

 

[Benny17441]

I had a similar experience a month ago at our favorite anchorage. There is room for about 150 boats and a very well founded looking boat anchoring too close to me. I told the skipper I had 90 feet of rode out and he was too close. He said I had too much rode out and should shorten up. Got sort of pissy about it. I declined and told him we had been experiencing stronger than usual evening thunder storms and my scope was appropriate. I pointed out the several boats that drug the night before anchored beyond me.
I really don't know what the big deal is. I would like to know if I was too close to another boat to swing outside his radius. I guess it's an ego thing. He missed out on being invited over for a nice single malt.

Had a similar situation on the other side of the coin where we pulled up to our local anchorage for lunch and were careful to anchor at least 2 boat lengths from the nearest boat. To my surprise the fellow on the other boat came out after we had anchored to shout at us that he had laid 100 ft of rode on his anchor. The conditions were calm and we were only in 12 ft of water and no foul weather forecasted and this was a small municipal anchorage where the locals are usually considerate not to hog the limited real state as it get kind of crowded in the weekends. I proceeded to tell him that we had only laid out 20 ft or rode and that we were only there for lunch and would be on our way shortly afterwards. He displayed an attitude of disdain because we did not offer to move and went down into his cabin never to come up again. After we got done we pulled anchor and went around the his stern and it was a boat from a hailing port from out of State. I felt it was not right for this guy to claim limited anchorage space based on the eventuality of foul weather which could or could not materialize. Even further this is a municipality controlled anchorage where the length of stay is limited and where in case of foul weather boats are asked to leave. I guess this whole issue rather then try to conform Admiralty case rules to small boats relies in common sense and courtesy. Doubt that any complaints or even in the case of a collision at anchor that the USCG would have given us the time of day and the probability of this going to court would have been nil as insurance companies settle these occurrences.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I'll go a bit further. Something I noticed in the example above while out there that a reader with little experience might fail to appreciate. Once the anchoring dynamic of the anchorage is set by the first arrival, and others follow suit, much of the anchorage would be occupied by properly spaced yachts swinging to single hooks. A "fouler" (moorer) comes in and wishes to moor close to me, telling me if I complain, to "put out a stern hook", etc. The problem is, I may not be able to--even if I so wished. If I did, I could essentially foul the boats near me that would normally swing toward me as I swung away with a wind or current shift. It's the domino effect. Now, each of those boats would have to anchor by the stern (moor) to avoid potentially hitting me, and so on. Then, that would make me "the fouler." This is WHY the first boat in sets the protocol for the anchorage, or at least for certain subsections of it, with the anchoring versus mooring issue; otherwise, some ignorant or just plain obtuse boater, johnny come lately, could disrupt those sections if not the entire anchorage which may have been "at peace" for several days. Some of the affected folks might not even be on their yachts at the time this might occur.

 

[capta]

Down here it is not uncommon to have a squall with upwards of 60 knots of wind in it's leading edge blow through an anchorage unheralded, at any time of the day or night. How I might react to someone telling me I have too much scope out is uncertain, but it would probably get me banned from this site again.

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

Brings to mind a story of when I was crewing on a 50 foot Ferro schooner. Lying to a single 100 pound anchor and 100 feet of 1/2 chain, in 20 feet of water.

A sloop of about 30 feet came in and anchored close aboard. The owners wife ( we were at supper) went on deck and informed him he was way too close. He told her he was fine. She told him "suit yourself, but we weigh 50,000 pounds dry, and likely 65,000 as of now" and came back below.

we watched out of the ports as he sat down, but then a woman came on deck over there and began talking-after a minute, he cranked up, hauled anchor and moved away.

Grin

 

[SBO Police Bot]

One member in this thread has earned a warning point for rudeness. Lose the attitudes.

 

[Brian D]

KG... so you are anchored in a nice bay with no chance of bad weather. I putter on in and see you. Having never anchored (except to raft up) what should I do? Should I ask how much rode you have out then move to your port or starboard about that distance and then drop the same amount?

I do drop anchor at the harbor entrance in Oceanside, but that is government property and there is no overnight. I just use it for practice. But there are no other boats there so I really do not know what to do or how far to be to allow for proper swing.

 

[Kings Gambit]

KG... so you are anchored in a nice bay with no chance of bad weather. I putter on in and see you. Having never anchored (except to raft up) what should I do? Should I ask how much rode you have out then move to your port or starboard about that distance and then drop the same amount?

I do drop anchor at the harbor entrance in Oceanside, but that is government property and there is no overnight. I just use it for practice. But there are no other boats there so I really do not know what to do or how far to be to allow for proper swing.

It's common for a newly arriving boat to ask about the scope (ft) of rode veered out from a boat already at anchor, if intending to anchor near it (say only a boat length or two away). If, say, you drop your anchor 50 ft straight across from mine (facing windward) in the same depth, and veer out the same amount of rode of the same type (e.g., chain), and we both lay to the wind, we should basically be across from one another most of the time in that wind. But, due to "yawing" out of phase at anchor, we might approach closer than 50 ft. If we swung around 90 deg, you'd be either in front of, or behind, me but the distance (adding on boat length) might be only 10 ft ahead or behind if we both have boats 40 ft LOA. So, better to drop 50 ft across and 25 to 50 ft to leeward--everything else the same. We'll still swing more or less together, plus there's little chance of actually bumping each other. Since you would know the water depth, type of rode, and my scope--with some practice you could anchor at a comfortable (but not a far) distance and we'd more-or-less stay relative through various wind shifts, etc. (Companion boats often anchor close to one another.) If, however, you dropped near my stern and veered out twice my scope on nylon 3-strand-- and me on chain, a 90 or 180-deg wind shift could bring you right over me, etc. If I saw someone doing this to me, I'd hail them and advise. So, if you know my scope or actual number of ft deployed, you can anchor safely near or far.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Also, Brian--if you have some time on a long weekend, you might run up to Dana Pt. or to Newport Harbor and anchor overnight in one of those public anchorages--there are three: East and West Basin in Dana Pt. Harbor, and the Lido Key anchorage in Newport Harbor. FYI: a trip into Newport Harbor is lots of fun--a very interesting place! You can actually drive your boat into the slip (when it's available) at the Bluewater Grill on Lido Key; get out and have dinner on the patio there (ala East Coast boating!) then return to the anchorage. No need to launch the dink.

 

[capta]

If one enters an anchorage and is unsure of how much scope the other boats already anchored there have out, why not just anchor beyond the last boat and suit yourself (scope wise) without interfering with any other boat? I don't get those new arrivals to an anchorage who feel they have some privilege to squeeze in someplace it is not prudent to anchor, upsetting those already anchored.
Back of the line, boys and girls.

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

Having never been on the right coast, I can only speak from East and Gulf coasts. I always look to see how other boats are anchored- single, or Bahama moor,, and do likewise. Over here, I have NEVER seen anyone anchored bow and stern, (meaning off the stern) except when an anchor was laid out,, and stern anchor taken ashore. Or otherwise. Many spots just have too much tide shift to do so.

Just makes sense to anchor like the rest are doing.

 

[Benny17441]

Down here it is not uncommon to have a squall with upwards of 60 knots of wind in it's leading edge blow through an anchorage unheralded, at any time of the day or night. How I might react to someone telling me I have too much scope out is uncertain, but it would probably get me banned from this site again.

I agree with you if you are in an anchorage where boats regularly anchor for extended periods and where the sailor may spend time away from the boat. I lived for many years in the Caribbean and I'm aware of the weather conditions in the area as well the freedom in anchoring places but I'm talking about a municipally operated basin in Florida where the boat density is ridiculously high and cooperation is necessary for everyone's enjoyment. In this basin if a boat wanted to anchor overnight (no longer permissible, they installed moorings) they had to ask permission from the municipal marina. If I were in the Caribbean I would probably have your same attitude about someone telling me I had too much scope but in our local basin I would not have a problem telling an inconsiderate person that they are. I would actually be doing them a favor because other local boaters would not have any problems sitting on top of the boat's anchor. I have seen the results of someone bringing up somebody else's anchor and it is not pretty. The options become limited to taking foolish action and paying the consequences or untangling and re-anchoring. Like I said it is all about common sense and having consideration for others.

 

[Kings Gambit]

My wife and I did a week charter in OZ several years ago where the charter ran through Jan 1. So, we anchored east of the bridge in one of those little coves along the north bank of Port Jackson (Sydney Harbor) by 10:00 am on Dec 31. Many boats eventually arrived there for the fireworks and since some weather (ala "southerly buster") had been forecast near mid-night, it that seemed everyone was laying vast amounts of chain for scope. The weather did not show up b/f the fireworks concluded (the most spectacular I've ever seen!!), and what a sight watching those boats trying to "untangle" themselves afterward. My rode must have been under at least two others. If the weather had arrived, what a CF that would have ensued. I managed to extricate myself and find another spot well out of the morass to re-anchor for the night. It was a bit lumpy, but not too bad. I suppose it might be considered "common courtesy" to sit patiently while folks drop hooks and chain all around you in a small space of which there are few available--but what else are you going to do in that kind of situation? However, no way the amount of scope some of those folks were veering out seemed necessary to me, so not everyone was thinking "consideration" for their neighbors.

 

[capta]

in Florida

My memory of the afternoon T-storms in Fla isn't of the calmest and most secure places I've spent anchored. A lot of folks squeezing in and anchoring short in an anchorage with the afternoon T-storms likely, brings visions a lot of folks having a very bad afternoon. I would just move on and not even put myself into a situation where I couldn't use what I felt was appropriate scope. It's got nothing to do with courtesy. Basic prudent seamanship dictates that one not put one's boat (or others') in harm's way.

 

[rbringle]

In addition to a single bow anchor vs. bow and stern anchors on different boats complicating an anchorage, I've observed two other issues. First, our sailboat dances more at anchor than other sailboats, so allowing room for that is possible when we're arriving. But other boats that come in after us don't know the range of that movement and sometimes crowd us. I now have an anchor sail, but that doesn't remove all of the movement. A more common issue is that we have only rope rode with 20' of chain; I usually put out 5:1 scope which could be >100' in water deeper than 20'. A larger sailboat or trawler comes in and puts down all chain. In light and moderate winds that change direction, I will move much more with the wind change than the trawler with all chain. Sometimes I've mentioned to the all-chain boat that we might rotate differently and to be aware of it. When it has happened, fortunately the second boat in the anchorage has relocated (after suggesting that I had too much anchor line in the water). This can be helped by having an anchor marker so other boats can see where your anchor is and how much rode we have in the water. This has been routine for us for years, although I have been surprised to read the objections to this practice on SBO.

 

[Benny17441]

My memory of the afternoon T-storms in Fla isn't of the calmest and most secure places I've spent anchored. A lot of folks squeezing in and anchoring short in an anchorage with the afternoon T-storms likely, brings visions a lot of folks having a very bad afternoon. I would just move on and not even put myself into a situation where I couldn't use what I felt was appropriate scope. It's got nothing to do with courtesy. Basic prudent seamanship dictates that one not put one's boat (or others') in harm's way.

True, more than once have had to leave a local anchorage to gain sea room in anticipation of a strong thunderstorm. The last time was in the Dry Tortugas and when I returned to the anchorage it was mayhem with various boats having pushed aground. Everyone helped each other and two hours latter it was as if nothing had happened. Not perfect environment but better than sitting at home.