More Link 2000 questions

[Smitty]

I'll start with a description of the system I've put together on Chikara. I have 2 100 AH Lifelines in parallel as a 200 AH house bank and a small ~50 AH Lifeline GPL-1400T as my starting battery. These are wired through a Blue Sea off - on - parallel battery switch which I leave in the off position except when we're on board. When we're on board, it's always in the on position, never parallel (yet). My alternator is the original Westerbeke 50 Amp modified for external regulation with a Balmar ARS-5 regulator. Charging is handled by a Xantrex Truecharge 20 and a Balmar Duo Charge takes care of the starting battery. I only use one output from the Truecharge and the starting battery is charged by the Duo Charge. The Link 2000 does not control an inverter. It's used as a monitor only.

This system works great and this will be the third season it's in use. I do have one nagging issue that I can't seem to figure out. Due to many personal complications we don't get out for extended sails very often. We mostly day sail and when we do get away for a couple of days, we usually overnight at marinas with shore power available. Therefore most of our charging is done via the Truecharge.

The problem is that the Link 2000 never says that the starting battery is full. It goes a little further into negative territory every time we sail. However, the at rest voltage is usually around 12.8 - 12.95 volts. According to Lifeline that's fully charged. It always has enough to spin the engine over and start it, so I believe that the Link 2000 is getting it wrong. BTW: the Link 2000 does say that the house bank is fully charged when it's been recharged from shore power for a couple of days. But, it never thinks that the starting battery is fully recharged.

I've rechecked all my wiring several times and I'm convinced everything is correct. I have talked to Xantrex support (last year) and we never figured it out. I have seen several threads here discussing the Link 2000 and I'm hoping maybe someone here can shed some light on this.

--Smitty

 

[Stu Jackson]

Link 2000 - answers? we hope

1. These are wired through a Blue Sea off - on - parallel battery switch which I leave in the off position except when we're on board. When we're on board, it's always in the on position, never parallel (yet).

2. The problem is that the Link 2000 never says that the starting battery is full. It goes a little further into negative territory every time we sail. However, the at rest voltage is usually around 12.8 - 12.95 volts.

3. BTW: the Link 2000 does say that the house bank is fully charged when it's been recharged from shore power for a couple of days. But, it never thinks that the starting battery is fully recharged.

1. Nice system description, sounds like you thought it out (except for the BS switch - I agree never use both - you never want to mix a dead bank and a good one and that switch, if it's the one I think it is, doesn't allow you to circuit your reserve bank to run your house loads, just in case).

2. What parameters have you entered into the Link? Have you modified the CEF and float and % amps per this "Gotcha" discussion we've referred to here recently (see: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4922.0.html) While this is to assure not having the Link say the bank was prematurely full, you should check the parameters carefully. Also, check the declaration of bank capacity, too, while you're at it. Check them all. The Xantrex guys rarely know much because they bought out C.E. and usually claim they "know nosshing" about what they bought. Have you switched the Link to rotate between both ah and kWhrs on the display (I forget the function #)? Have you checked your duo-charge operation? Is it wired properly? I had a long discussion with a colleague about this and he was originally stumped by some of their wiring instructions. I'd be glad to share that offline with you if you'd like.

3. How come it takes two days to fill up the house bank? Do you have refrigeration on board? With no fridge you should be using less than 40 ah a day, and your Truecharge should bring it up to full overnight. If you have a fridge, you really only have one night out at a time at 100 ah a day for your 200 ah house bank.

 

[Smitty]

1. Nice system description, sounds like you thought it out (except for the BS switch - I agree never use both - you never want to mix a dead bank and a good one and that switch, if it's the one I think it is, doesn't allow you to circuit your reserve bank to run your house loads, just in case).

2. What parameters have you entered into the Link? Have you modified the CEF and float and % amps per this "Gotcha" discussion we've referred to here recently (see: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4922.0.html) While this is to assure not having the Link say the bank was prematurely full, you should check the parameters carefully. Also, check the declaration of bank capacity, too, while you're at it. Check them all. The Xantrex guys rarely know much because they bought out C.E. and usually claim they "know nosshing" about what they bought. Have you switched the Link to rotate between both ah and kWhrs on the display (I forget the function #)? Have you checked your duo-charge operation? Is it wired properly? I had a long discussion with a colleague about this and he was originally stumped by some of their wiring instructions. I'd be glad to share that offline with you if you'd like.

3. How come it takes two days to fill up the house bank? Do you have refrigeration on board? With no fridge you should be using less than 40 ah a day, and your Truecharge should bring it up to full overnight. If you have a fridge, you really only have one night out at a time at 100 ah a day for your 200 ah house bank.

Thanks for the quick reply Stu. This is a Cal 28, so a lot of this design was determined by wanting the most capacity I could get into the limited available space. I'll dig out the parameters the next time I'm at the boat and report them here.

1. I was lucky to find space for 2 group 31's and a starting battery. I had to use a very small starting battery. Because the banks are so asymmetrical I didn't think a 1 - 2 - reverse switch was appropriate. I would only use the both position if the starting battery didn't have enough to get me started. Then the much larger house bank should get us started up.

2. I didn't know about the AH/KWH rotation. Either I missed it in the manual or it's not in it. I'll look it up. I have set the capacities for the banks and I'm using the defaults for the voltage and currents used to determine "full". I'll have to look up the actual settings next time I'm at the boat. I'm assuming the Duo Charge is working correctly because the starting battery is always at 12.8 volts or more after sitting with no chargeing for a couple days and always has enogh to spin the engine over normally. This is for an entire season during which the engine has been started 40+ times without depleting this very small battery.

3. No firdge. I still like an icebox. That's a question in my mind also. I thought it should be taken care of overnight or, at the very least, by the second day. I think maybe the charge current doesn't drop quite low enough and stay there for 4 minutes. I'm only guessing here.

--Smitty

 

[Rich Stidger]

Originally Posted by Smitty

2. The problem is that the Link 2000 never says that the starting battery is full. It goes a little further into negative territory every time we sail.


Smitty,

It sounds like your starting battery is drifting down in "reported" but not actual percentage of charge when you are not using it. If that is true, the battery does not have to actually be used for the Link to "report" that it is down in AH. There can be an offset in the measuring circuits so that even with no current being drawn, the Link thinks that a very small amount of current is being used and it tallies that current and shows as usage.

You can see this if you turn off all power circuits and just look at the Link display for current draw. Instead of showing zero all the time, it may show -0.1 A every few seconds. This is a limitation and resolution of the Link and not a defect. However, over time this small average of phantom discharge current will show as power used.

Could this be your problem?

 

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Smitty

2. The problem is that the Link 2000 never says that the starting battery is full. It goes a little further into negative territory every time we sail.


Smitty,

It sounds like your starting battery is drifting down in "reported" but not actual percentage of charge when you are not using it. If that is true, the battery does not have to actually be used for the Link to "report" that it is down in AH. There can be an offset in the measuring circuits so that even with no current being drawn, the Link thinks that a very small amount of current is being used and it tallies that current and shows as usage.

You can see this if you turn off all power circuits and just look at the Link display for current draw. Instead of showing zero all the time, it may show -0.1 A every few seconds. This is a limitation and resolution of the Link and not a defect. However, over time this small average of phantom discharge current will show as power used.

Could this be your problem?

Rich,

I don't think so. If the starting battery indicates down by, let's say, 10 AH after coming in from sailing, it will still say -10 AH 2 or 3 days later. If I run the charger during those days, it will come back some but never all. It might get to be -7 AH but never better. I thought that the -.1 A (only on the house bank side) was due to the Link 2000 actually using some small amount of current to run itself and it's backlight.

It seems as though the starter pulls some capacity out and then the alternator/charger returns some or all of it. However, the Link 2000 either over reports the usage or under reports the charge. Again, the at rest voltage of the starting battery will indicate 12.8+ while the capacity might say -15 AH. Since this is only a ~45 AH battery, that would represent a 30% discharge. Surely the resting voltage would be less than 12.8 if that were true. Therefore, I'm convinced that the Link 2000's capacity reporting is wrong.

I hope that made some sense. I've been playing with this for a couple of seasons and I'm starting to get a little confused. The fact that the engine always starts right up from this battery would make me believe that the capacity hasn't really been seriously compromised. If I let this go without resetting the link 2000, it can get down to as much as -30 AH (2/3 of the battery's capacity used). The terminal voltage will still report (and measure with an external Fluke) as 12.8 V or more. While all this is occurring on the starter battery, the house bank goes down under use and comes back with charging and seems to behave as expected. That is except that it seems to take longer than expected to get to 100%.

--Smitty

 

[Rich Stidger]

Smitty,

OK, now I got it. Based upon what you have just said I think Stu is correct in that there may be some parameter for the starting bank that is set incorrectly. I would check the value for the charging efficiency - CEF. By default it starts at 95% but it can decrease automatically to a much lower value that is way too low.

 

[Smitty]

Okay. here's some of my setup parameters:

Charged Voltage: B1=13.2 B2=13.0
Charged Current: B1=2% B2=2%
Capacity: B1=200 B2=40 (had to be either 40 or 60)
Battery Type (F02): B1=3 B2=3 (AGM)

B1 is the 200 AH house and B2 is the ~45 AH starting battery.

​

Anything stand out as needing changing? The Truecharge is set to AGM as is the Duo Charge.

--Smitty

 

[Rich Stidger]

Side question for Stu

<snip> Have you switched the Link to rotate between both ah and kWhrs on the display (I forget the function #)?

Stu- What is the significance and need to switch between AH and kWhrs on the display? Does switching perform some hidden function?

 

[Rich Stidger]

Smitty,

A couple more ideas and questions-

Why is the charged voltage parameter 13.2V for your house bank and only 13.0 for the starting battery?

Are these the correct values for AGM batteries? (I don't have AGM myself, but 13.2V sounds like the value for flooded cells)

What are the values for CEF for both banks?

When you are charging from both the engine alternator and your Truecharge 20, do you observe charging current on the Link for both charging options? Are the charging current values about the same?

When your system is in the sailing configuration, do you observe any discharge current from the starting bank?

 

[Stu Jackson]

F04

Stu- What is the significance and need to switch between AH and kWhrs on the display? Does switching perform some hidden function?

Rich - I looked further after playing with your Gotcha input. From the manual:

Function F04 When alternating between the normal amp-hour modes and the KW-hour mode that the Link 2000 uses to determine if 100% of the energy consumed from the battery has been returned. A recalc of the CEF is not permitted unless this counter is greater than 0.00 kWh. This counter counts down during dicharge and kWhrs consumed are displayed w/a - #. During charging it counts back up with 100% efficiency. Not allowing a recalculation of the CEF and an Ah reset until a positive # is in the counter ensures that there will not be a premature reset.."

Red's not so great, but the blue is fine. I've reset my Gotchas factors and found that this is just another one. Once the B voltage and the % and the CEF are changed as you suggested, as I noted in the link to my C34 MB writeup, I found a significant change in operation of my Freedom 15 - all of a sudden it worked!!! No more going right to float.

The downside of F04 is that it uses a 100% CEF, but does avoid a premature reset. I haven't had it in long enough with SP charging to notice a difference, because I did it a few weeks after the other changes and then i broke my leg. I need more time at the boat!

After getting involved with the Gotcha, I dug real deep into the manual.

F11!!!

Could it be he hasn't reset F11? Remember that discussion? Smitty, read the manual FIRST, then get back to us. You need to turn F11 off an not use Batt #2 for "control" and your house bank has to be wired as Bank #1. Ask some more ?s once and only after you've read the manual. If it's on the boat, download it from Xantrex's website, same Functions regardless of make year or manufacturer. (I find it helpful to have my boat manuals in my computer, too.) OTOH, it may only be for Freedom I/Cs, because it's trip to float, although it may say "full" which is "float" - dunno for sure.

I concur with Rich's ?s in Reply #9.

 

[Smitty]

Smitty,

A couple more ideas and questions-

Why is the charged voltage parameter 13.2V for your house bank and only 13.0 for the starting battery?

Are these the correct values for AGM batteries? (I don't have AGM myself, but 13.2V sounds like the value for flooded cells)

What are the values for CEF for both banks?

When you are charging from both the engine alternator and your Truecharge 20, do you observe charging current on the Link for both charging options? Are the charging current values about the same?

When your system is in the sailing configuration, do you observe any discharge current from the starting bank?

The 13.2 for B1 is the default. I had previously lowered it for B2 hoping that that would resolve the problem. It didn't seem to change anything and I just forgot to put it back. I thought that setting F02 to the correct battery type would set up the correct params for the type. I see now, on rereading the manual that that's only for the charger. I'll have to check out the correct values for AGM's and set these correctly.

The user set CEF's are both at 87% which is the default. The calculated CEF for B2 is not set as there have never been any recalcs (apprently the threshholds for recalc are never being met for B2). B1 has had several recalcs, but I forgot to write down the calculated value. I'll get it next time I'm at the boat.

The charging currents for both situations seem to be about the same. However, the Duo Charge for B2 cuts off very soon after turning the charger on. It takes us about 1/2 hr to 45 minutes to get in after sailing. The alternator has pretty much fully recharged the starting battery by the time we're docked and shore power is connected (at least that's my theory). Our engine starts very easily and not much power is consumed from the starter bank.

No, there's no discharge from B2 during sailing.

I saw Stu's remarks about F11. That is set to yes which is the default. The way I read the manual, F11 only affects a Freedom which I don't have. Should I change this to no?

--Smitty

 

[Stu Jackson]

"The user set CEF's are both at 87% which is the default. The calculated CEF for B2 is not set as there have never been any recalcs (apprently the threshholds for recalc are never being met for B2). B1 has had several recalcs, but I forgot to write down the calculated value."

I doubt if the CEF is user set at 87%, that sounds like the initial setting and the Link is recalculating it all the time. Rich's Gotcha says to MANUALLY set the F06 (CEF), and NOT to depend on the automatic recalculation. Read the manual again, since the F02 (battery selection) sets the CEF at 87 for wet cells. Read page 19, too.

Also note that the Link starts its recalculation only after six times (see middle of page 21).

Also, Page 20: "Some things that will cause the Link 2000 to not stay in sync are: 1)discharge cycle less than 10% of battery capacity..." If all you're doing is taking a tiny amount of amps out of your reserve bank when starting the engine, the Link will not work or stay in sync.

My initial conclusions are these, but I'm still thinking on it:

1. U wrote: "However, the Duo Charge for B2 cuts off very soon after turning the charger on." That's because the battery is full or you need to check your duo charge operation. That's why we keep suggesting that people use the separate bank as a RESERVE and NOT a "start" bank, use the house bank for everything.

2. The Link is working OKl. You almost answered your own question: "apprently the thresholds for recalc are never being met for B2" . If it's not meeting the threshold for calculation of the CEF, it's not meeting the 10% discharge, hence your perceived problem. If the CEF is not set manually, it's not recacluating and never showing full. Another Link manual suggestion is to completely recharge your banks and resync the Link. Most Link "issues" go away when the Link is resynced with completely full batteries. See page 20, middle of the page, hand figure on left, in bold: discharge your reserve bank more than 10% and then fully recharge. You have been UNDER discharging your reserve, woops, start bank, and that's why this is happening. The Link is NOT synced anymore.

Page 20 and 21 pretty much answer your question. The battery is never discharged enough and the Link gets out of sync. I don't think you have a problem, the Link is working just as the manual says it will.

That is what I'd do if it was my boat.

What we have done is copy the manual from a download, and leave it on board. I take copious notes from these discussions and scribble them down on that copy of the manual, and understand more about it every time I use it. For instance, I may be completely wrong about the F04 I discussed above, and it's nice to have Rich around to remind me of these things. I also made a number of copies of page 32 with the settings and update it regularly as I fiddle around with the Link.

F11 - I was wrong, you are right, forget F11 it's only used for the Freedom charger - I was "groping" at the time. Sorry about that.

Editorial: Having nothing to do with your Link: I know you have the dual circuit switch but I think the dual circuit switch is a completely wrong thing to ever install on a boat. It makes you use your reserve bank for a start bank, and forces paralleling at the worst time, when one bank is dead. If you used your house bank for everything, with a simple 1-2-B switch, you'd find the Link would work just fine: your reserve bank would always be full!

 

[Smitty]

Stu:

I'm studying the manuals for the Link2000, the Truecharge, the regulator, the Lifelines and the Duo Charge again. Maybe with the advice from you and Rich, I can figure out parameters that will make this play together better. However, I fear you're correct and that starting from 1 bank doesn't pull the bank down far enough to get the Link to do its magic.

The user set CEF's I referred to are F06 for each bank. According to the manual this seems to be a default setting. I've never changed it, but I very likely will now.

One of the reasons I implemented this system as I did was that when I started the engine from the house bank, it forced all my electronics into a restart from the voltage drop caused by the starter. For me, that's reason enough to separate the starting and house loads. I really don't care to have my E80, GPS, radar and depth/speed (DSM 300) all leaving me blind for a couple minutes when I start the engine. Yeah, I know, I should probably rewire the boat with heavier wire than Lear Siegler saw fit to use, but most of this wiire was put in before the sole was epoxied in place. The openeings in the sole don't really allow access to this wiring and I just plain am too lazy to tackle that nightmare. They did use 2 and 4 guage cable and that's more than enough for everything except turning the engine over with a resonable voltage drop.

Another question, if you use 1 bank only as a reserve, how does it get discharged enough to cause the Link 2000 to give you correct status for it?

I do keep manuals for all this stuff on the boat and at home. I got the idea of copying the form from page 32 and using them to track settings and information 2 days ago. Thanks it's a great idea.

I really appreciate all the knowledgeable help with this and I'll post back with how I make out (and maybe some more stupid questions).

 

[Stu Jackson]

On the right course

Another question, if you use 1 bank only as a reserve, how does it get discharged enough to cause the Link 2000 to give you correct status for it?

It doesn't (almost ever) get discharged, so the Link always shows it as full. That's another reason why I so dislike the dual circuit switch wiring concept because it drains so little to start. You have uncovered another one of those unforeseen circumstances related to boat equipment. Once we sort this out, I'll probably write it up on our C34 MB. "Unforeseen consequences" come up a lot in some of the things I've seen. Thanks for the new one!

I recently had a friend who INSISTED that I help him design a system that required his engine to start on the reserve bank. I couldn't talk him out of it, but did get him to agree to wire it so that he could run his house loads off the reserve bank just in case, which the dual circuit, as I see it, just simply cannot. Using the reserve bank to start doesn't affect the electronics, as you so correctly point out.

If you had a 1-2-B switch, I would have suggested that you run some house loads off the reserve bank to see if the Link was really working. You simply can't do that, right?

Re: Link checking RB: What I do is check the reserve bank voltage occasionally. I have a combiner, but could just as well use my 1-2-B switch for charging, but I never use B on the switch and only use #2 (our reserve bank) to sometimes start the engine with the reserve bank to assure me that the Link ain't lyin' to me! Otherwise, we always use our house bank for everything. The combiner has a shut off toggle switch on the ground line, so I usually keep it off. The reserve battery is a WM closed cell wet cell "start" bank and next time I'll go to Sears! No use, no abuse, charge it every few months just for grins and giggles. It's like charging up a battery from our friends back east before wintertime haulout, and having it fine in the spring. The Link shows it full if I check the AHs function.

The CEF is "settable" as Rich notes. Yours sounds like it's still on auto-recalc. Use the DATA function, page 15, to check this. Between the manual and the "Gotcha" link, it's pretty much what our assembled wisdom has been able to figure out about these puppies, and thanks also to Donalex who contributed mightily to the discussions about a year ago.

I do understand the electronics stuff, which is why all I have is an autopilot which I turn off before I restart the engine. My GPS is a Garmin GPSMap 76Cx, with an old Magellan as a backup. You might want to ask Maine Sail how he deals with electronics, since he and I share our reserve bank use the house theories.

My understanding is that there are two ways: you wire larger wires to avoid voltage drop (which is really hard to do because of the huge spike from the starter) and a small separate electronics battery (which just confuses things even more and requires more switches)!

Who said boats are compromises?!?

Rich and I are glad we could help, we're becoming somewhat the specialists on the Link 2000, at least on this board. I assume others elsewhere have discussed it, but I haven't heard of anyone else coming up with the answers we have, which seem to work for us.

I, too, reread that manual. And reread it, and reread it. If only they'd written it for people who actually use the thing, like: if you wanna do this, do that...

You have a great system, from your description, so keep at it.

Keep us posted. I gotta finish some real work, goin' sailing tomorrow.