My second question is that I'm renting a mooring for next season and have never tied to a mooring before. What is the setup? I've seen the mooring penants on West Marine. They don't impress me as being very secure?????? Any suggestions, what works for you? Thanks, John
Mooring setup
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Ditto
I'm interested in this question too. We live in VT, but my family owns a cottage on LI Sound. The past couple of seasons, a beach neighbor has let me use his mooring as needed, but I don't have full confidence that it's been serviced any time recently. We're also thinking of leaving our 23.5 there for 4-6 weeks or more next season, so we think we should have our own mooring that we know how it was set up, what it's scope is, etc. Being a cheapskate, I'm thinking I'll homemake the anchor. I thought I'd take two 5-gal buckets, fill them with cement & bury the end of 10'-15' of galvanized chain into each with three or four 4"-5" galvanized spikes poked through the bottom links and set at 90 degree angles to the chain & each other. I'd go out as far as I could at low tide in the first full moon of June & bury the two buckets next to each other. We have excellent sandbars there, so holding should be no problem. My only concern would be sandbar shifting after a heavy storm or over the winter (I'd recheck each spring) which might uncover the buckets. I'd seize a shackle to bring together the other ends of the chains and attach a 1/2" or 5/8" nylon 3-strand rode with thimble. I'd provide between 5:1 and 7:1 scope. I guess the two questions I have at this point are: Do folks think a 23.5 would be OK with 10 gals of cement below (too little? one bucket too many? idiotic not to use an anchor?)? Is that the right scope? I'm not too worried about the holding of the buckets vs a proper anchor since they'd be buried & it's largely envisioned to be the weight which would hold her if they somehow were uncovered by storm/surf. I'm unclear what our mooring ball/pennant arrangement might be. I'd like to think I could go with a 12" mooring ball, but if I decide to use more chain than rope, I wonder about the weight issue; a 15" might be better. I'm not too worried about needing a pick-up. I'm thinking I'd attach one end of the short line to the bottom side of the float ball & attach the end securing the boat to the top of the ball when I'm off the mooring. That would also give me a loop to grab with the boathook when returning. Also, it would be in a fairly wide-open area; if I miss it the first time, I'd have plenty of room to swing around. I'm interested in hearing what kinds of snap hook folks use. I'd hate to have a sturdy set-up only to have the boat adrift due to hook failure. I'd probably tie on a second (slightly longer) short line when I leave for any extended time (i.e. midweek) as a back-up. So that's my thinking. I'm eager to hear more on the subject. ------- Kevin s/v Grasshopper Hunter 23.5 Brownsville, VT
I'm interested in this question too. We live in VT, but my family owns a cottage on LI Sound. The past couple of seasons, a beach neighbor has let me use his mooring as needed, but I don't have full confidence that it's been serviced any time recently. We're also thinking of leaving our 23.5 there for 4-6 weeks or more next season, so we think we should have our own mooring that we know how it was set up, what it's scope is, etc. Being a cheapskate, I'm thinking I'll homemake the anchor. I thought I'd take two 5-gal buckets, fill them with cement & bury the end of 10'-15' of galvanized chain into each with three or four 4"-5" galvanized spikes poked through the bottom links and set at 90 degree angles to the chain & each other. I'd go out as far as I could at low tide in the first full moon of June & bury the two buckets next to each other. We have excellent sandbars there, so holding should be no problem. My only concern would be sandbar shifting after a heavy storm or over the winter (I'd recheck each spring) which might uncover the buckets. I'd seize a shackle to bring together the other ends of the chains and attach a 1/2" or 5/8" nylon 3-strand rode with thimble. I'd provide between 5:1 and 7:1 scope. I guess the two questions I have at this point are: Do folks think a 23.5 would be OK with 10 gals of cement below (too little? one bucket too many? idiotic not to use an anchor?)? Is that the right scope? I'm not too worried about the holding of the buckets vs a proper anchor since they'd be buried & it's largely envisioned to be the weight which would hold her if they somehow were uncovered by storm/surf. I'm unclear what our mooring ball/pennant arrangement might be. I'd like to think I could go with a 12" mooring ball, but if I decide to use more chain than rope, I wonder about the weight issue; a 15" might be better. I'm not too worried about needing a pick-up. I'm thinking I'd attach one end of the short line to the bottom side of the float ball & attach the end securing the boat to the top of the ball when I'm off the mooring. That would also give me a loop to grab with the boathook when returning. Also, it would be in a fairly wide-open area; if I miss it the first time, I'd have plenty of room to swing around. I'm interested in hearing what kinds of snap hook folks use. I'd hate to have a sturdy set-up only to have the boat adrift due to hook failure. I'd probably tie on a second (slightly longer) short line when I leave for any extended time (i.e. midweek) as a back-up. So that's my thinking. I'm eager to hear more on the subject. ------- Kevin s/v Grasshopper Hunter 23.5 Brownsville, VT
At least 300 pounds for your boat.
And you cant get that from 5 gallon containers. Then there is annual inspection of chains and replacing. How are you going to replace a chain that is embedded in the concrete? Get a propper mooring achor so you don't damage someone elses boat when yours gives out.
And you cant get that from 5 gallon containers. Then there is annual inspection of chains and replacing. How are you going to replace a chain that is embedded in the concrete? Get a propper mooring achor so you don't damage someone elses boat when yours gives out.
10 Gallons of Cement?
Consider this. 2 5 gallon buckets will displace, in salt water, about 10 gallons of water. That would only be about 100 pounds displacement, at the MOST. It is probably short of that. Add the weight of the chain in the bucket minus the displacement, and you are probable going to need 10 buckets (minimum). And the problems/calculation just compound from there! But don't worry - I won't ask to borrow your mooring! *yks
Consider this. 2 5 gallon buckets will displace, in salt water, about 10 gallons of water. That would only be about 100 pounds displacement, at the MOST. It is probably short of that. Add the weight of the chain in the bucket minus the displacement, and you are probable going to need 10 buckets (minimum). And the problems/calculation just compound from there! But don't worry - I won't ask to borrow your mooring! *yks
Big Engine Blocks are Hard to Come By Now
I would think that for a 23.5 you could set out three danforths with a chain all going to a central length of chain and secure it to a line and to you mooring ball. I wonder to if auger tie downs for a mobile home would not work as well.
I would think that for a 23.5 you could set out three danforths with a chain all going to a central length of chain and secure it to a line and to you mooring ball. I wonder to if auger tie downs for a mobile home would not work as well.
Get a professional
IMHO, anyone is crazy to wing it. Get a professional to set it up. You owe it to your investment in the boat and just as importantly to yout mooring neighbors. You are probably required to have minimum standards by your homeport. Othwerwise, crunch, crash, glug, glug, or looking at your boat on the beach, insurance claim, and finally taking up another sport.
IMHO, anyone is crazy to wing it. Get a professional to set it up. You owe it to your investment in the boat and just as importantly to yout mooring neighbors. You are probably required to have minimum standards by your homeport. Othwerwise, crunch, crash, glug, glug, or looking at your boat on the beach, insurance claim, and finally taking up another sport.
Byrce, Fantastic Link
Bryce, thanks for that link. It was very helpful & positive. It spells out the issues very well. A few of the other responses could benefit from being a bit less harsh and insulting. Not everyone is as smart as you are... or as you clearly think you are... ;{
Bryce, thanks for that link. It was very helpful & positive. It spells out the issues very well. A few of the other responses could benefit from being a bit less harsh and insulting. Not everyone is as smart as you are... or as you clearly think you are... ;{
Thanks for the link Bryce.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. The mooring is provided by the owner of the mooring field. I weas more interested in the connection to the boat. thanks, all. John
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. The mooring is provided by the owner of the mooring field. I weas more interested in the connection to the boat. thanks, all. John
Knowledge is Power
John, I think it was clear what you were after & Bryce's link should help you there with its section on pennants, as you have already seen. Thanks again, Bryce! I hijacked the thread a bit by broaching the subject of the entire set-up. However, John, the link does give you a broader picture so you can discuss your mooring set-up with the mooring owner. You can ask him about what's down there, what the scope is, what kind of rode, when last serviced, etc. As the link suggests in discussing some of the mooring failures during Hurricane Bob: "Another problem was that people picked up moorings from absent boaters, knowing nothing about their condition or capacity. In several instances, yacht clubs rented absent members’ moorings without any knowledge of what material they consisted of, their holding capacity, or when they were last inspected or serviced." That's a large part of my motivation to set up my own mooring rather than borrowing my neighbor's. He's a great guy & he always keeps a weather eye on our girl when we've left her out there, but if the mooring's a half-baked set-up (of the ilk I was initially contemplating!), it's my boat that's imperiled. And, yes, despite some of the commentary suggesting otherwise -- by people who have never laid eyes on me, much less know me -- I may be looking for cheap options, but I'm not going to risk the safety of my vessel or any neighboring vessels... And no, I'm not planning on taking up another activity anytime soon. I am constantly learning, and mooring is a new experience for me, but my basic seamanship skills are solid. Moreover, with all due respect to some of the suggestions, I still plan to do the work myself. However, with the gentle prodding I've received, I'm rethinking the anchor side of things. One advantage I have is I'm going to set it in a low tide where I can access the holding area, which is excellent sand. Whatever I use, I plan to bury it deeply in the sand. There are very few boats moored in this area. I can easily leave 7:1 scope or more (no pun intended). If I was going to moor in a harbor or crowded mooring field or an area where you can't get inspect it without scuba equipment, by all means I'm going through the harbormaster/marina. Another factor is I'm not leaving my boat on the mooring in nor'easters or tropical systems. I'm hauling her out. So while I want secure holding, I'm not planning on riding out a hurricane. The winds are predicted to get over 30, the boat's sitting on the trailer. I'm just looking for better holding than my overnight hook while I go home during the week. My situation is such that if needs be, I can run down & get her if the weather turns. Thank you all for feeding my eager curiosity on this subject.
John, I think it was clear what you were after & Bryce's link should help you there with its section on pennants, as you have already seen. Thanks again, Bryce! I hijacked the thread a bit by broaching the subject of the entire set-up. However, John, the link does give you a broader picture so you can discuss your mooring set-up with the mooring owner. You can ask him about what's down there, what the scope is, what kind of rode, when last serviced, etc. As the link suggests in discussing some of the mooring failures during Hurricane Bob: "Another problem was that people picked up moorings from absent boaters, knowing nothing about their condition or capacity. In several instances, yacht clubs rented absent members’ moorings without any knowledge of what material they consisted of, their holding capacity, or when they were last inspected or serviced." That's a large part of my motivation to set up my own mooring rather than borrowing my neighbor's. He's a great guy & he always keeps a weather eye on our girl when we've left her out there, but if the mooring's a half-baked set-up (of the ilk I was initially contemplating!), it's my boat that's imperiled. And, yes, despite some of the commentary suggesting otherwise -- by people who have never laid eyes on me, much less know me -- I may be looking for cheap options, but I'm not going to risk the safety of my vessel or any neighboring vessels... And no, I'm not planning on taking up another activity anytime soon. I am constantly learning, and mooring is a new experience for me, but my basic seamanship skills are solid. Moreover, with all due respect to some of the suggestions, I still plan to do the work myself. However, with the gentle prodding I've received, I'm rethinking the anchor side of things. One advantage I have is I'm going to set it in a low tide where I can access the holding area, which is excellent sand. Whatever I use, I plan to bury it deeply in the sand. There are very few boats moored in this area. I can easily leave 7:1 scope or more (no pun intended). If I was going to moor in a harbor or crowded mooring field or an area where you can't get inspect it without scuba equipment, by all means I'm going through the harbormaster/marina. Another factor is I'm not leaving my boat on the mooring in nor'easters or tropical systems. I'm hauling her out. So while I want secure holding, I'm not planning on riding out a hurricane. The winds are predicted to get over 30, the boat's sitting on the trailer. I'm just looking for better holding than my overnight hook while I go home during the week. My situation is such that if needs be, I can run down & get her if the weather turns. Thank you all for feeding my eager curiosity on this subject.
Displacement?
Paul, are you saying a bucket full of lead and a bucket full of water(sealed) will weigh the same in water, because they both displace 5 gallons? A 5 gal bucket displaces 5 gal of water when filled and sunk. 5 gal is approximately 2/3 of a cubic ft, so filled with water would weigh a little more than 40 lbs. 5 gal of concrete would weigh about 100 lbs, 5 gal of lead would weigh about 470 lbs, Both displace 40 lbs of water but which is the better anchor?
Paul, are you saying a bucket full of lead and a bucket full of water(sealed) will weigh the same in water, because they both displace 5 gallons? A 5 gal bucket displaces 5 gal of water when filled and sunk. 5 gal is approximately 2/3 of a cubic ft, so filled with water would weigh a little more than 40 lbs. 5 gal of concrete would weigh about 100 lbs, 5 gal of lead would weigh about 470 lbs, Both displace 40 lbs of water but which is the better anchor?
Yeah
The displacement of the buckets/ anchor/ whatever gets SUBTRACTED from the wight to get the true underwater weight. 1 Cubic foot of water: 65 lbs 1 cubic foot of cement: 100 lbs 1 cubic foor concrete: 150 lbs 1 cubic foot of iron: 450 lbs 1 cubic foot lead: 700 lbs ------------------------------------ 1 cubic foot of cement in water: 35 lbs % Loss: ~70% 1 cubic foot of concrete in water:85 lbs % Loss: ~50% 1 cubic foot iron in water: 385 lbs % Loss: ~15% 1 cubic foot lead in water: 635 lbs % Loss: ~ 10% Thus, a 750 lb concrete or 1250 lb cement block is roughly equivalent to a 450 lb iron engine block. (400 lbs lead) If I was making my own mooring, I'd attach 2 small-block v8's together with a very large chain, passing through the cylinder bores and it would be schackled into a continuous loop. Then, also to this chain, 1/2" chain of sufficient scope to the mooring ball. I'd drop it in and "set" it by dragging it back and forth. But this is just a theory! Question: If you're putting you mooring in a sandbar that is dry at low neap tide...What happens when there are 2' waves at regular low tide? I've tried sailing in 28" of water with a 24" draft..and a jetski passing 100 feet off the side left enough wake to cause me to hit bottom. Or, i'd buy a nice heavy iron mushroom or pyramid mooring. Actually, a good mooring is probably a 500-1000 lb chunk of keel off an old sailboat.
The displacement of the buckets/ anchor/ whatever gets SUBTRACTED from the wight to get the true underwater weight. 1 Cubic foot of water: 65 lbs 1 cubic foot of cement: 100 lbs 1 cubic foor concrete: 150 lbs 1 cubic foot of iron: 450 lbs 1 cubic foot lead: 700 lbs ------------------------------------ 1 cubic foot of cement in water: 35 lbs % Loss: ~70% 1 cubic foot of concrete in water:85 lbs % Loss: ~50% 1 cubic foot iron in water: 385 lbs % Loss: ~15% 1 cubic foot lead in water: 635 lbs % Loss: ~ 10% Thus, a 750 lb concrete or 1250 lb cement block is roughly equivalent to a 450 lb iron engine block. (400 lbs lead) If I was making my own mooring, I'd attach 2 small-block v8's together with a very large chain, passing through the cylinder bores and it would be schackled into a continuous loop. Then, also to this chain, 1/2" chain of sufficient scope to the mooring ball. I'd drop it in and "set" it by dragging it back and forth. But this is just a theory! Question: If you're putting you mooring in a sandbar that is dry at low neap tide...What happens when there are 2' waves at regular low tide? I've tried sailing in 28" of water with a 24" draft..and a jetski passing 100 feet off the side left enough wake to cause me to hit bottom. Or, i'd buy a nice heavy iron mushroom or pyramid mooring. Actually, a good mooring is probably a 500-1000 lb chunk of keel off an old sailboat.
Not just weight
For a mooring it is not just weight that matters, a mushroom anchor will resist moving by digging in to the sand/mud bottom, which will occur over time. Chapman discusses permanent moorings, and has recommendations based on the experiences of the Manhasset Bay Yacht Club at Port Washington NY, and a discussion of a triple anchor system. When in doubt consult Chapman "Piloting Seamanship & Boat Handling" everyone should own a current copy.
For a mooring it is not just weight that matters, a mushroom anchor will resist moving by digging in to the sand/mud bottom, which will occur over time. Chapman discusses permanent moorings, and has recommendations based on the experiences of the Manhasset Bay Yacht Club at Port Washington NY, and a discussion of a triple anchor system. When in doubt consult Chapman "Piloting Seamanship & Boat Handling" everyone should own a current copy.
Beachable 23.5
Brian, I'm not sure what peril, if any, you are describing at low tide. The 23.5 with centerboard retracted has no trouble being beached at low tide. Clearly, I need to watch the tide cycle to be sure I can get on or off, but I don't have any concerns about damage to the boat if it is beached. Casper, thanks for your insights on the issue. As always, you're right on. Also, am I missing something here or is it not relevant that in my initial suggestion I proposed to BURY the concrete/buckets? So for argument sake, let's hypothesize I bured 75+ NET lbs of concrete (three 5-gal buckets chained together) in firm sand a foot below the surface. In conditions below Force 7, near gale winds (below 28 Kts/32 MPH), in which case my boat ain't out there, that's not going to provide sufficient holding for a 23.5? 75 net lbs sitting on the bottom won't cut it, I know. But if you buried it? And, please, let's resist insulting answers. I'm asking for considered opinions, better yet, actual experience. I'm not offering this mooring for commercial use, it's not in a crowded area, and it's not intended for riding out a storm. I'm also not planning on lending it out to anyone here...
Brian, I'm not sure what peril, if any, you are describing at low tide. The 23.5 with centerboard retracted has no trouble being beached at low tide. Clearly, I need to watch the tide cycle to be sure I can get on or off, but I don't have any concerns about damage to the boat if it is beached. Casper, thanks for your insights on the issue. As always, you're right on. Also, am I missing something here or is it not relevant that in my initial suggestion I proposed to BURY the concrete/buckets? So for argument sake, let's hypothesize I bured 75+ NET lbs of concrete (three 5-gal buckets chained together) in firm sand a foot below the surface. In conditions below Force 7, near gale winds (below 28 Kts/32 MPH), in which case my boat ain't out there, that's not going to provide sufficient holding for a 23.5? 75 net lbs sitting on the bottom won't cut it, I know. But if you buried it? And, please, let's resist insulting answers. I'm asking for considered opinions, better yet, actual experience. I'm not offering this mooring for commercial use, it's not in a crowded area, and it's not intended for riding out a storm. I'm also not planning on lending it out to anyone here...
A suggestion
Why not just get an auger or helix type anchor and screw it in yourself? Seems that would be much easier and better than trying to muscle some block of concrete or other bulk heavy item and bury it, not to mention in a sandy bottom it would hold infinitely better. And when your done for the winter, take it out with you. My two cents.
Why not just get an auger or helix type anchor and screw it in yourself? Seems that would be much easier and better than trying to muscle some block of concrete or other bulk heavy item and bury it, not to mention in a sandy bottom it would hold infinitely better. And when your done for the winter, take it out with you. My two cents.
Low tide
VT, the problem isn't being beached, or while floating. It's that "in between" period, where the boat is rising on the swells and then being dropped on its hull..possibly on a medium sized rock that washed in there.
VT, the problem isn't being beached, or while floating. It's that "in between" period, where the boat is rising on the swells and then being dropped on its hull..possibly on a medium sized rock that washed in there.
Honestly, no rocks!
Brian, thanks for the clarification. My family has owned this cottage for over 80 years. I've been summering there for parts of every year of my life. I have never seen a rock on those lovely sandbars in 47 years. I'm not worried about finding one now. Notwithstanding, I could imagine there would possibly be brief periods of rough bounces under certain weather conditions. Given its fairly limited intended usage, I'm still not too worried about it. And while I've claimed it's not a crowded mooring area -- and it's not -- there still are enough sail & power boats out there to prove how gentle it is on hulls. Moreover, virtually all of them are closer to shore than I envision Grasshopper would be located. Also, I'm wondering if I might *like* her to be beached for part of the tidal cycle. Easier to get supplies on or off! It's really one of the best stretches of beach on the CT shore, especially apropos of sand- vs rockbars. Fort Trumbull beach in Milford. It's a wonderful place to visit... I'll even lend you my mooring! (*yks I said I wouldn't do that earlier, didn't I???)
Brian, thanks for the clarification. My family has owned this cottage for over 80 years. I've been summering there for parts of every year of my life. I have never seen a rock on those lovely sandbars in 47 years. I'm not worried about finding one now. Notwithstanding, I could imagine there would possibly be brief periods of rough bounces under certain weather conditions. Given its fairly limited intended usage, I'm still not too worried about it. And while I've claimed it's not a crowded mooring area -- and it's not -- there still are enough sail & power boats out there to prove how gentle it is on hulls. Moreover, virtually all of them are closer to shore than I envision Grasshopper would be located. Also, I'm wondering if I might *like* her to be beached for part of the tidal cycle. Easier to get supplies on or off! It's really one of the best stretches of beach on the CT shore, especially apropos of sand- vs rockbars. Fort Trumbull beach in Milford. It's a wonderful place to visit... I'll even lend you my mooring! (*yks I said I wouldn't do that earlier, didn't I???)
Helix anchor?
Androctus, thanks for that suggestion. I'd like to look into that idea. I don't have any real knowledge about them. You wouldn't have a link to a particular one, would you? Also, as I've reflected on some of the input here, it occurred to me that as the Technical Director at a theater, I have access to "stage bricks," various-sized blocks of lead for using in the counterweight rigging system or for keeping scenery in place. We have a large excess supply of them & I could easily borrow several 70 lb bricks -- say a half-dozen -- chain them together & bury them. The displacement loss is much lower than concrete & the link Bryce provided discussed how lead doesn't deteriorate like concrete does. That would provide nearly 400 net lbs of weight buried in sand. That should be enough, no? Don't get me wrong, Androctus. I still like the idea of your lighter-weight helix anchor solution. I'm not eager to lug all that weight out on to the sandbar.
Androctus, thanks for that suggestion. I'd like to look into that idea. I don't have any real knowledge about them. You wouldn't have a link to a particular one, would you? Also, as I've reflected on some of the input here, it occurred to me that as the Technical Director at a theater, I have access to "stage bricks," various-sized blocks of lead for using in the counterweight rigging system or for keeping scenery in place. We have a large excess supply of them & I could easily borrow several 70 lb bricks -- say a half-dozen -- chain them together & bury them. The displacement loss is much lower than concrete & the link Bryce provided discussed how lead doesn't deteriorate like concrete does. That would provide nearly 400 net lbs of weight buried in sand. That should be enough, no? Don't get me wrong, Androctus. I still like the idea of your lighter-weight helix anchor solution. I'm not eager to lug all that weight out on to the sandbar.
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