I need to replace my permanent dock lines. I'd like to tie or fashion a loop in 5/8 inch solid yacht braid to use as a mooring line, so my question is what knot? Figure 8 on bight, or bowline are a couple that come to mind. Obviously, reliability of the knot is of utmost importance! My boat is 28 feet long, 7000 lbs. Sorry for asking such a silly question, but I'm glad to be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge in this forum. Any suggestions about knots or alternate approaches are appreciated. Thanks, Drake.
Mooring lines
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more about this 5/8 inch solid yacht braid line. Manufacturer's name would help. You should be able to splice a loop in yacht braid. Failing that I would tie a bowline and seize the tail to the standing part with some small stuff.
more about this 5/8 inch solid yacht braid line. Manufacturer's name would help. You should be able to splice a loop in yacht braid. Failing that I would tie a bowline and seize the tail to the standing part with some small stuff.
Braided line vs. Multi-stran
I wouldn't use a braided line for dock lines. Because of the shock value. Braided lines won't streach as much which is great for halhards and running rigging but for dock lines you want to have a little give. Easier on your gear.
I wouldn't use a braided line for dock lines. Because of the shock value. Braided lines won't streach as much which is great for halhards and running rigging but for dock lines you want to have a little give. Easier on your gear.
If you use nylon
for your dock lines you will have enough stretch for shock absorbing purposes. I prefer three strand laid line because even when it is old I can chop off a worn loop and splice in a new loop. Old braid doesn't splice well.
for your dock lines you will have enough stretch for shock absorbing purposes. I prefer three strand laid line because even when it is old I can chop off a worn loop and splice in a new loop. Old braid doesn't splice well.
Not Braided line
Braided line should NEVER be used for mooring lines or dock line. Three strand nylon is elastic and will give when wind and waves are moving the boat. Splice a loop in and tie the other end off to a bollard on the dock. Obtain some pieces of plastic water line and put it over your own lines where they cross the rub rail. A tip: when pulling the 3 strand through the plastic line, use a liberal application of dish soap inside the water line. The water line will ensure that your lines do not wear through and will extend the life of your lines significantly.
Braided line should NEVER be used for mooring lines or dock line. Three strand nylon is elastic and will give when wind and waves are moving the boat. Splice a loop in and tie the other end off to a bollard on the dock. Obtain some pieces of plastic water line and put it over your own lines where they cross the rub rail. A tip: when pulling the 3 strand through the plastic line, use a liberal application of dish soap inside the water line. The water line will ensure that your lines do not wear through and will extend the life of your lines significantly.
another version of the bowline
I second the suggestions so far - don't use braid, use 3-strand nylon and eye splice it (it's not hard) because it's easier on your boat and very secure. The link I've provided is for the eye splice, though many knots are illustrated. However, if it's the only line I had and if it was temporary, I would use a version of the bowline (sorry - don't know its name) that incorporates an extra loop to take the stress off the knot. When you form the loop in the rope (the hole for the bunny to come up out of), form a second identical loop about 6" up the standing part. Then the bunny (end) comes up out of the first hole, but instead of going around the tree it travels along the line to the second hole and comes up out of it, then it goes around the tree and immediately down the second hole, travels to the first hole and goes down it. That's it. The first "hole" handles all the stresses and the second hole is actually just a regular bowline knot. I saw this knot in Ashleigh's probably 30 years ago, but don't have the book anymore and can't find it on the web.
I second the suggestions so far - don't use braid, use 3-strand nylon and eye splice it (it's not hard) because it's easier on your boat and very secure. The link I've provided is for the eye splice, though many knots are illustrated. However, if it's the only line I had and if it was temporary, I would use a version of the bowline (sorry - don't know its name) that incorporates an extra loop to take the stress off the knot. When you form the loop in the rope (the hole for the bunny to come up out of), form a second identical loop about 6" up the standing part. Then the bunny (end) comes up out of the first hole, but instead of going around the tree it travels along the line to the second hole and comes up out of it, then it goes around the tree and immediately down the second hole, travels to the first hole and goes down it. That's it. The first "hole" handles all the stresses and the second hole is actually just a regular bowline knot. I saw this knot in Ashleigh's probably 30 years ago, but don't have the book anymore and can't find it on the web.
I Have To Disagree With The Comments Made
braided line. I've added a link to the Yale Cordage web site for better understanding. Yale designs line for specific purposes not all braided line can be used for sheets and halyards nor should it. Here in Maine almost everyone uses the Yale Polydine Mooring Pendants and yes they are braided. They are perhaps the strongest, most strechy and abrasive resistant pendants available. Yale also makes specific braided line for docking as well with a very high strech factor. I prefer braided dock lines because they stow and flake better. Are they more expensive...yes but I trust the design better when it comes to chaffe. The picture below is a photo of my three year old 3/4 inch Yale Polydine pendants. I use two one 15 footer and one 12 footer. If one goes in a storm it would be the short one as it sees 90% of the use and the longer one is virtually brand new.
braided line. I've added a link to the Yale Cordage web site for better understanding. Yale designs line for specific purposes not all braided line can be used for sheets and halyards nor should it. Here in Maine almost everyone uses the Yale Polydine Mooring Pendants and yes they are braided. They are perhaps the strongest, most strechy and abrasive resistant pendants available. Yale also makes specific braided line for docking as well with a very high strech factor. I prefer braided dock lines because they stow and flake better. Are they more expensive...yes but I trust the design better when it comes to chaffe. The picture below is a photo of my three year old 3/4 inch Yale Polydine pendants. I use two one 15 footer and one 12 footer. If one goes in a storm it would be the short one as it sees 90% of the use and the longer one is virtually brand new.
dock lines
you can purchase ready made dock lines at any chandlery, or go to an online store if you like. Braided or laid (3-strand) is okay as long as it's NYLON, because nylon is stretchy. I like the 3 strand because it stretches more and it's easy to put in an eyesplice if you want to build your own. For your size boat, I think 7/16 inch is more than adequate. Use split pieces of old garden hose whipped to the chafe areas, or clipped over the genoa track. Dock Line Advisory: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/docklines.htm Dock Line Products: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&categoryId=10895&langId=-1&subdeptNum=11205&storeNum=5
you can purchase ready made dock lines at any chandlery, or go to an online store if you like. Braided or laid (3-strand) is okay as long as it's NYLON, because nylon is stretchy. I like the 3 strand because it stretches more and it's easy to put in an eyesplice if you want to build your own. For your size boat, I think 7/16 inch is more than adequate. Use split pieces of old garden hose whipped to the chafe areas, or clipped over the genoa track. Dock Line Advisory: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/docklines.htm Dock Line Products: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&categoryId=10895&langId=-1&subdeptNum=11205&storeNum=5
Carrick bend...
A bit stronger than a bowline but can capsize. A doubled figure of eight is even better but a PITA to tie onto a ring, etc. I also Worm Parcel and Serve three strand .... and sometimes slather on SPF30 to prevent UV destruction. Plastic tubing (sleeves) used as chafe protection also hold and trap in the heat when the rope is continuously stretched and relaxed to the extreme ... not as good as WP&S: the 'laborious, old-fashioned way'.
A bit stronger than a bowline but can capsize. A doubled figure of eight is even better but a PITA to tie onto a ring, etc. I also Worm Parcel and Serve three strand .... and sometimes slather on SPF30 to prevent UV destruction. Plastic tubing (sleeves) used as chafe protection also hold and trap in the heat when the rope is continuously stretched and relaxed to the extreme ... not as good as WP&S: the 'laborious, old-fashioned way'.
My boat weathered hurricane
Isobel and I use 5/8 laid nylon lines and inspect them EVERYTIME I visit the boat. One line chafed through one of three strands during the storm. My boat is 30 Ft and 9000 lbs our winds never exceeded 70 MPH Nothing too strong ever broke. Quote from Joe Mission Bay: For your size boat, I think 7/16 inch is more than adequate.
Isobel and I use 5/8 laid nylon lines and inspect them EVERYTIME I visit the boat. One line chafed through one of three strands during the storm. My boat is 30 Ft and 9000 lbs our winds never exceeded 70 MPH Nothing too strong ever broke. Quote from Joe Mission Bay: For your size boat, I think 7/16 inch is more than adequate.
Dock Line
Drake57...you are getting some bad advice from previous posters. There is nothing wrong with braided dock line as long as it is nylon. It does not stretch as much as three strand, but stretches enough and is stronger. Also, 5/8 is way over kill...7/16 is the recommended size line for a boat of your size. I used 5/8" a few years ago...on a 43' 23,000 pound houseboat. All this information is in the West Marine Advisor.
Drake57...you are getting some bad advice from previous posters. There is nothing wrong with braided dock line as long as it is nylon. It does not stretch as much as three strand, but stretches enough and is stronger. Also, 5/8 is way over kill...7/16 is the recommended size line for a boat of your size. I used 5/8" a few years ago...on a 43' 23,000 pound houseboat. All this information is in the West Marine Advisor.
8 strand multiplait
Does anyone have experience with braiding a loop in multiplait ? On how to handle 8 at a time , or split into 4x2 , I can braid 3 strand and understand but this 8 strand is a mess .
Does anyone have experience with braiding a loop in multiplait ? On how to handle 8 at a time , or split into 4x2 , I can braid 3 strand and understand but this 8 strand is a mess .
here goes
One year I used plastic coated 1/4" stainless cable for my starboard lines. Not much movement there and it worked beautifully. No damage all summer. I also used braided and it worked as well as three strand. I moved up a notch to 5/8 on the 20,000 boat. It was on sale. The sizes you see from the rope people are Generaly Accepted From Experience. But, you can always go up. One 25,000 boat at the end of the dock used what was recommended and it snapped like a twig in the first good storm. Buy what you can afford, use what works.
One year I used plastic coated 1/4" stainless cable for my starboard lines. Not much movement there and it worked beautifully. No damage all summer. I also used braided and it worked as well as three strand. I moved up a notch to 5/8 on the 20,000 boat. It was on sale. The sizes you see from the rope people are Generaly Accepted From Experience. But, you can always go up. One 25,000 boat at the end of the dock used what was recommended and it snapped like a twig in the first good storm. Buy what you can afford, use what works.
I prefer to use braided over laid, but always nylon for the stretch factor. I use (2) 3/4" nylon penants for my boat mooring and change both every other year. I only use eye splices at each end for maximum line strength. Any knot tied in a line will GREATLY degrade the line strength. Add in the loss due to age and a 10,000# line can easily break at 3 or 4,000#'s, not nearly enough protection in a blow.
Braid versus 3-strand twist
Nylon braid will stretch 30% before failing and nylon twist will stretch 50% before failing. If at a dock, I'm using twist; if at a mooring, I'm using braid.
Nylon braid will stretch 30% before failing and nylon twist will stretch 50% before failing. If at a dock, I'm using twist; if at a mooring, I'm using braid.
Eye splices
8 strand multiplait Does anyone have experience with braiding a loop in multiplait ? On how to handle 8 at a time , or split into 4x2 , I can braid 3 strand and understand but this 8 strand is a mess . I believe that the line you are refering to is a hollow braid. With hollow braid the usual proceedure is to measure off about fifteen diameters from the end and mark that length. Next determine the size eye you want starting from your first mark and make a second mark. at the second mark open the braid by scrunching the rope up and making the braid loose. separate the stands to make a hole into the inside of the standing part. At this time you will need a tool to allow you to pull the end of the rope into the hollow of the standing part.when you get the end buried in the standing part and everything smoothed out you get you palm and needle and whip the point of entry and take several stitches down the length of the buried part. The rope maker should have details with pictures on their web site.
8 strand multiplait Does anyone have experience with braiding a loop in multiplait ? On how to handle 8 at a time , or split into 4x2 , I can braid 3 strand and understand but this 8 strand is a mess . I believe that the line you are refering to is a hollow braid. With hollow braid the usual proceedure is to measure off about fifteen diameters from the end and mark that length. Next determine the size eye you want starting from your first mark and make a second mark. at the second mark open the braid by scrunching the rope up and making the braid loose. separate the stands to make a hole into the inside of the standing part. At this time you will need a tool to allow you to pull the end of the rope into the hollow of the standing part.when you get the end buried in the standing part and everything smoothed out you get you palm and needle and whip the point of entry and take several stitches down the length of the buried part. The rope maker should have details with pictures on their web site.
Disagreement is Good.. (Sometimes) !
I'm in my first year in sailing and find this forum extremely valuable! Whenever I see disagreement on a topic, it tends to make me research the topic more. Most of the time the results of this research "sticks" with me more than a flat single statement of fact. As my father used to tell me, "it's OK to disaagree as long as you're not disagreeable". Thank all of you for getting me through my first year of sailing! BrianW
I'm in my first year in sailing and find this forum extremely valuable! Whenever I see disagreement on a topic, it tends to make me research the topic more. Most of the time the results of this research "sticks" with me more than a flat single statement of fact. As my father used to tell me, "it's OK to disaagree as long as you're not disagreeable". Thank all of you for getting me through my first year of sailing! BrianW
Stretch can mean comfort
When we oversized our mooring lines, we found that the result was a jerky night if we were docked in a harbor with any surge at all. Going to the right size of line for our 7,000 pound 27 footer meant that it was easier to rig for a more gentle movement in surge. All of our lines are three strand laid nylon. If I went to braided nylon, then I would want to know that they were purpose built for docklines on my size of boat. Any knot will reduce the breaking strength of the dock line by 40% to 60%. Since storms will eventually test your lines, I strongly recommend spliced loops which approach 100% of line strength. We bought ours already spliced, but it is also a good skill to learn. David Lady Lillie
When we oversized our mooring lines, we found that the result was a jerky night if we were docked in a harbor with any surge at all. Going to the right size of line for our 7,000 pound 27 footer meant that it was easier to rig for a more gentle movement in surge. All of our lines are three strand laid nylon. If I went to braided nylon, then I would want to know that they were purpose built for docklines on my size of boat. Any knot will reduce the breaking strength of the dock line by 40% to 60%. Since storms will eventually test your lines, I strongly recommend spliced loops which approach 100% of line strength. We bought ours already spliced, but it is also a good skill to learn. David Lady Lillie
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