Hi, One of two inquiries today as I came across a couple of items on my way to finishing my bottom painting & launching. My O'Day 30 is a vintage 1980, so not surprisingly, every now and then, we have a bit of a repair or upgrade to do. I just noticed about a 1 1/2 inch long, small opening on the leading edge of my rudder which had a bit of water seeping out of it after a rain storm earlier today. When I squeeze that particular part of the rudder between my fingertips, I get a very slight give and a slight seepage of water out. The rest of the rudder at least appears to be intact. My question is, does anyone have a recommendation as to what I might used to seal this opening. I'm thinking some kind of glue or fiber glass filler which I would work into this slender crack to seal it and then clamp until dry. Want to get this season in before looking for any bigger problems behind this relatively small seepage I came across.... Any suggestions and diagnosis much appreciated... Thanks, Jim "Sojourn"
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nick maggio
miner or major ?
I would check archives, first see what others have done to check how much water has gone in your rudder. You don't want to rush a water soaked rudder and have it get worse.
I would check archives, first see what others have done to check how much water has gone in your rudder. You don't want to rush a water soaked rudder and have it get worse.
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John Dawson
Possible wet core
It could be small local damage, or a sign of hidden problems. Rudders that size and age are often a foam core over an SS padle. Once the water gets in, it can saturate the insides with no apparent damage. Serious repairs are delayed for years, until freezing temperatures cause the fiberglass shell to start cracking and loose strength. At some point, you may have to sacrifice some warm sailing weather to dry it out and do a fix. For now, you might use one of those repair compounds that can bond in spite of moisture.
It could be small local damage, or a sign of hidden problems. Rudders that size and age are often a foam core over an SS padle. Once the water gets in, it can saturate the insides with no apparent damage. Serious repairs are delayed for years, until freezing temperatures cause the fiberglass shell to start cracking and loose strength. At some point, you may have to sacrifice some warm sailing weather to dry it out and do a fix. For now, you might use one of those repair compounds that can bond in spite of moisture.
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ron
another rudder repair ?
ON Beneteau Oceanis 370 rudder: I have material that is scraped off the bottom leading edge of my rudder that goes two inches long and one half inch wide and that is one eighth inch deep. It is deep enough that the outer layer is gone and the fiberglass (brown resin???) is visible. The outer layer is a little bit crumbly or say gritty. When I rub my fingers over the edge of the area, I get a few gritty pieces in my fingers. How can I fix this? Is the outer layer epoxy or is it fiberglass??? Can I simply make up some epoxy and fill in the area, let it dry, sand it and paint over it??? Or do I need to use some other material? Note that the rudder is not damaged so that one can see into an open area, only that one can see the resin (brown speckled) area. Thanks in advance! Ron
ON Beneteau Oceanis 370 rudder: I have material that is scraped off the bottom leading edge of my rudder that goes two inches long and one half inch wide and that is one eighth inch deep. It is deep enough that the outer layer is gone and the fiberglass (brown resin???) is visible. The outer layer is a little bit crumbly or say gritty. When I rub my fingers over the edge of the area, I get a few gritty pieces in my fingers. How can I fix this? Is the outer layer epoxy or is it fiberglass??? Can I simply make up some epoxy and fill in the area, let it dry, sand it and paint over it??? Or do I need to use some other material? Note that the rudder is not damaged so that one can see into an open area, only that one can see the resin (brown speckled) area. Thanks in advance! Ron
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John Dawson
Epoxy and maybe cloth
If I needed to add an eigth of an inch to a leading-edge high-stress impact zone on a rudder, and be sure it sealed and bonded with the shell, I would tend to add a layer of epoxy resin and cloth to the area. Because of your description, I see it more as replacing lost f/g surface with integrity, rather than filling a low spot. It would be a lot more (careful) work, but several inches of filler there sounds vunerable IMHO. I believe there are patch kits with small amounts of materials that would suit, and of course instructions.
If I needed to add an eigth of an inch to a leading-edge high-stress impact zone on a rudder, and be sure it sealed and bonded with the shell, I would tend to add a layer of epoxy resin and cloth to the area. Because of your description, I see it more as replacing lost f/g surface with integrity, rather than filling a low spot. It would be a lot more (careful) work, but several inches of filler there sounds vunerable IMHO. I believe there are patch kits with small amounts of materials that would suit, and of course instructions.
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Tim McCarty
Not a good time to discover this problem...
I had delamination in my rudder a few years ago, and finally decided to do something about it. I dropped the rudder, drilled about 8 to 10 holes in the delamination, turned it over (lost about 1 cup of water), and let it dry for about 4 months. I did notice the foam core was fine, sooooooo....once dry, I clamped the rudder down using C-clamps and 2"/4"'s...I then filled the holes with West System Epoxy and 105 hardner. It took a couple of treatments, but, once I sanded down the holes, and primed and painted the rudder, you would have never known I had a problem. The guys at Gougeon Bros. (who make West Systems) walked me through the whole process. They have a tech service dept. that handles this kind of thing all the time. For what it's worth...
I had delamination in my rudder a few years ago, and finally decided to do something about it. I dropped the rudder, drilled about 8 to 10 holes in the delamination, turned it over (lost about 1 cup of water), and let it dry for about 4 months. I did notice the foam core was fine, sooooooo....once dry, I clamped the rudder down using C-clamps and 2"/4"'s...I then filled the holes with West System Epoxy and 105 hardner. It took a couple of treatments, but, once I sanded down the holes, and primed and painted the rudder, you would have never known I had a problem. The guys at Gougeon Bros. (who make West Systems) walked me through the whole process. They have a tech service dept. that handles this kind of thing all the time. For what it's worth...
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John Dawson
Good description, Tim
of the fix for wet core, cracking and delamination. You could also finish the whole thing off by painting it with epoxy containing the barrier additive, although bottom paint has a harder time sticking to it. Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen many blisters on rudder surfaces, maybe because they don't have alot of layers or firmness inside to push against?
of the fix for wet core, cracking and delamination. You could also finish the whole thing off by painting it with epoxy containing the barrier additive, although bottom paint has a harder time sticking to it. Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen many blisters on rudder surfaces, maybe because they don't have alot of layers or firmness inside to push against?
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Tim McCarty
Thanks John
yes, I found out by talking with the guys at Gougeon (I used to sell them epoxy, until I got LAID OFF), that most rudders are not made of glass fiber reinforced polyester. They are foam cored and (unreinforced) polyester coated. I had thought of re-glassing the rudder, but, they stated that, unless I was going to re-do the whole rudder. Clamping and filling with epoxy was the better recomendation. The key here though is to find out where the water is coming from. I'm guessing that it is coming from the top of the rudder (at the post)... a weak spot according to the experts. If you are going to glass (which I don't recomend) or fill with epoxy, you might as well sand down and reinforce the top of the rudder/post with epoxy also.
yes, I found out by talking with the guys at Gougeon (I used to sell them epoxy, until I got LAID OFF), that most rudders are not made of glass fiber reinforced polyester. They are foam cored and (unreinforced) polyester coated. I had thought of re-glassing the rudder, but, they stated that, unless I was going to re-do the whole rudder. Clamping and filling with epoxy was the better recomendation. The key here though is to find out where the water is coming from. I'm guessing that it is coming from the top of the rudder (at the post)... a weak spot according to the experts. If you are going to glass (which I don't recomend) or fill with epoxy, you might as well sand down and reinforce the top of the rudder/post with epoxy also.
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james rohr
Here's the scoop on the rudder!
the rudders on the early O'day's was they were built similar to most. the glass shell was made in two parts then they were sandwiched together using epoxy. they were filled with open cell structural foam. this absorbs water. the water usually gets in at the top where the post enters the rudder. they have different coef. of expansion, so a crack will always be there where the post enters the rudder. when the rudder is full of water, subsequent freezing will split it. one possible solution is to drill a hole in the bottom of rudder, then put a plug in it for the season, then remove it at haulout to allow it to drain before it freezes. I completely rebuilt mine and filled it with closed cell foam that will not absorb water. however it must be noted that closed cell foam isn't as strong, so you have to make mod. to internal post frame to spread load over larger area, or it could possibly crush the foam internally. I know that rebuilding is a lot of work. but why buy a new rudder that will have the same problem as the original?
the rudders on the early O'day's was they were built similar to most. the glass shell was made in two parts then they were sandwiched together using epoxy. they were filled with open cell structural foam. this absorbs water. the water usually gets in at the top where the post enters the rudder. they have different coef. of expansion, so a crack will always be there where the post enters the rudder. when the rudder is full of water, subsequent freezing will split it. one possible solution is to drill a hole in the bottom of rudder, then put a plug in it for the season, then remove it at haulout to allow it to drain before it freezes. I completely rebuilt mine and filled it with closed cell foam that will not absorb water. however it must be noted that closed cell foam isn't as strong, so you have to make mod. to internal post frame to spread load over larger area, or it could possibly crush the foam internally. I know that rebuilding is a lot of work. but why buy a new rudder that will have the same problem as the original?
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Jim
Thanks much for the input....
Thank you all very much for your input. I had a consultation with one of our resident round the world sailors, who eyeballed the rudder for me and gave it a number of taps all over. His conclusion was that this was not at all a five alarm fire, so, I've made myself comfortable with that prognosis for now and we're off and running... End of season I will drill that recommended hole at the bottom of the rudder for winter storage to ward off water forming into ice inside the rudder. As well, after some dry out time, I'll try some Epoxy and clamping on the small spot that had the split. Meanwhile, thanks again for the great input and... Fair Winds, Jim "Sojourn"
Thank you all very much for your input. I had a consultation with one of our resident round the world sailors, who eyeballed the rudder for me and gave it a number of taps all over. His conclusion was that this was not at all a five alarm fire, so, I've made myself comfortable with that prognosis for now and we're off and running... End of season I will drill that recommended hole at the bottom of the rudder for winter storage to ward off water forming into ice inside the rudder. As well, after some dry out time, I'll try some Epoxy and clamping on the small spot that had the split. Meanwhile, thanks again for the great input and... Fair Winds, Jim "Sojourn"
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