Minimum bluewater?

[Peppy LePew]

Go Figure

Little Harbor doesn't make it up the east coast in a spring storm, but Childress sailed around the world in a Catalina 27.Sometimes no matter what boat you take out across oceans won't be good enough if the Gods of the Sea want to cause a problem. No man made thing can withstand mother nature in her fury. The best to do is dodge her and stay on the far edges of her angry side (like most women)

 

[Ross]

The most dangerous parts of the ocean

are the thin places around the edges.

 

[Jim]

Ross, what are the

thin places around the edges? Are you taking about being close to shore?

 

[Ross]

Of course!

if you can sound the depth you are in dangerous water.

 

[Joseph Shirley]

I have sailed on five Hood designed boats from 38 to 50 feet

(once with him as skipper) and they were all beautiful, strong, & fully found yachts. He never believed in stripping a boat for speed. Most, even had fireplaces and luxury interiors. Even the one he won the bermuda race with.His earlier boats were all named Robin and were made of steel by Franz Mas in Holland (round bilge, coated and smoothed in fiberglass). No Hood that I know of would have been lost due to a Hood originated problem.The Hood 50 was an interesting design (at least one design), because in addition to the airfoil solid bar rigging, they had twin dagger-boards, Port and starboard so that each would be vertical when the boat was heeled, and the trunks came right up through the salon.One of his designers worked for me when I worked at Merriman.To my knowledge Hood has never built a poor boat, so I would like to know what happened to Flying Colours. Anyone know the story?Joe S

 

[Peppy LePew]

Joseph, No one knows what really happen

Its very sad. I would not say it was a defect in the boat. I also believe it was a seasoned off shore crew that was lost.There was no trace of the boat not any survivors. It seems like it was just swallowed up by the sea. It was stormy (30+ foot seas??? 40+ kts wind) They were in the gulf stream in heavy northerly which can cause some big and breaking seas. The CG received an EPIRB signal but that was it.You can google "Flying Colours Little Harbor" and get some links to some info. Not much more than what I told you above. I think the cruisersforum dot com site has the best discussion

 

[Wanderer138]

Here are a few of my criteria

I'm thinking about a bluewater boat myself and have started my research. I started out with the usual criteria: price, length, draft, hull type, rig, sailplan etc. After a while, I began to realize that a bluewater boat is a place where you spend LONG periods of time a long way away from assistance in all kinds of weather, often with little or no company. I concluded that a good bluewater boat must be safe, secure and comfortable.I believe strongly in the KISS principle but I don't think one should skimp on the essentials. As a result, here are some of the most basic things I'd want to know if I were actively shopping:1) Is there enough headroom to stand upright while cooking or taking off wet foul-weather gear? Some say that if you really want to stand upright, then you should go on deck, but sometimes that's just not possible...2) Is the boat reasonably fast? The difference between 5 kt and 6 kt doesn't seem like much until you realize that's a difference of 24 miles a day or almost 4 days on a 3000-mile transatlantic passage. Think of the savings in food and water and the reduced risk of being overtaken by heavy weather.3) Does she have good motion under way? Does she track well? Can she be sailed by a shorthanded or singlehanded crew or by a novice guest?4) Is she easy to maintain? Do I have to spend a lot of time varnishing? Can I get at the stuffing box if the packing starts to leak? Can I get at the engine if it dies at a critical moment (like coming in a rough, narrow channel and sediment in the fuel blocks the fuel filters).5) Is the boat well-ventilated below decks, not only at anchor in the tropics, but also under way and especially when buttoned up for rain or heavy weather?6) Is the boat reasonably dry (on deck and belowdecks) when under way?7) Once prepared for rough weather, can the boat take care of her crew? Can they rest comfortable below while waiting out a blow, or do they have to be up on deck working actively to keep the boat out of trouble?8) Will the cockpit drain quickly if pooped by a breaking wave? Is there a bridgedeck to prevent water in the cockpit from flooding the boat?I think people seek out good old boats like Allieds, Cape Dories and Contessas not because modern production boats are bad but rather because they're not as affordable. Just my two cents...PeterH23 "Raven"

 

[Joseph Shirley]

Peppy , Thanks

I looked up the links and they are as you said. Not much info. I guess I'l continue to wonder what happened. I still don't think it was the boat but it sure is sad. Thanks again. Joe S

 

[MoonSailer]

Ross Do You have Bluewater Experience????

After reading your posts for some time my impression is that you pretty much stay in Chesapeake Bay. Did you sail across oceans when you were a younger man?? Being a competant sailer in a protected bay is a good thing and in many ways is more challenging than crossing oceans but they are two entirely different types of sailing.  The thin water around the edges of the oceans is the most dangerous but also usually the safest as safe harbors are usually associated with thin water. So if I am sailing along the gulf coast and listening to the weather I should not have to endure really bad weather. One could argue that the entire gulf of mexico is "coastal sailing" since you are probably never more than two days from a safe harbor. Yes I am aware that Katrina was making waves over 50' high as she approached New Orleans but that hurricane was predicted days before the weather really got nasty.  My only experience with bad weather was a gale in the Bahamas. I was on a large charter sailboat "Blackbeard's" on a scuba diving vacation. There was a lot of pukeing!!!! Many looked extremely miserable even my dive buddy could not sleep down below without getting sick. We were not out in the worst of it as we hid behind Grand Bahama Island for a day or so. But the experience was enough to convince me that I want to be on a substantial boat in bad weather. A boat like the little Macgregor 26 that I owned at the time would have been rolled numerous times and probably the rudder would have been broken off. A Catalina 27 would have been very uncomfortable at best.  A substantial boat does not mean a safe trip as a cockleshell doesn't mean disaster. Many Cubans have arrived in the USA on innertubes!!!! But in nasty weather I would rather be on something like a Pacific Seacraft 37 or a Cape Dory 37 . The perfect boat would be like a transformer. At anchor it would have a big cockpit and a lot of beam plenty of windows room to dance around. Then at sea when the weather looks nasty the cockpit would shrink and the beam would be cut in half there would be lots of handholds and little chance of falling 10-12 feet across the main salon....oh yes and the keel would grow to full keel size. Water ballast and a daggerboard just won't cut it during a gale. A light boat might not roll or break apart but it will have a lot more motion than a heavier boat. Even on the heavy 45' boat on my Blackbeard's trip moved around. I was lucky that my upper berth was rather tight. I caught myself as I was being flung out one night. As I was being tossed my arm on the ceiling was enough to keep me in the berth. Considering the table etc in the salon getting tossed would have probably resulted in serious injury. A safe sea berth is essential in a blue water boat. Maybe actually being strapped in place would be a good ideal on a smaller lighter boat. A broken arm or wrist during a storm at sea would be life threatening.

 

[RichH]

Comparing 'blue water' boats ....

http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html although some of the parameters of this website are old and essentially obsolete by modern accepted standards (capsize ratio, etc.) it should give you a basis for some selection criteria for blue water boats. You can follow the links on this site that define all the parameters. Length of Waterline (LWL) is probably the key for the safest passage ... the longer the LWL will allow movement away from threatening weather systems faster than a shorter LWL. So that being said, most voyagers seems to gravitate to the *largest water line length (LWL) they can afford* (in a sound/proven boat).... and then go on from there.

 

[Liam]

Lots of opinions, all good.

I have seen this topic come up numerous times and it is always good for a spirited debate. Lots of varied opinions and they are mostly all valid.Having said that, I will say that it is my guess that most of the contributors have not and will not ever sail farther than 100 miles from their slip.That's okay, in fact that is just fine. Not everyone wants to sail across oceans.For some great answers to this question I would recomend picking up a copy of WORLD CRUISING SURVEY by Jimmy Cornell.Mr Cornell has circumnavigated something like 11 times and really knows what he is talking about.There is information to be found there that will no doubt come as a great surprise to many "arm-chair" cruisers.All the best.

 

[Jim]

Re: Ross Do You have Bluewater Experience????

He must. He know so much!

 

[Ross]

Moonsailor, I do not have blue water experience.

Having said that I will add that 90 percent of what I know I have learned from books and every time I have applied my book loearn knowledge to a practical endeavor I have been successful after a few false starts. I do know the experience of others is valid and tested so I will follow their lead when I do venture off soundings. Sheltered harbors really don't qualify as thin places around the edges of the ocean.Jim, Please try to contribute constructively.

 

[MoonSailer]

Ross Reading is relatively painless !!!!

There are different ways to gain knowledge and reading is definately the painless route. But experience is the best teacher!!!! At least for me my limited experience has taught me a lot. Reading a paragraph in a book about being at the helm all night sounds OK. But after having been at the helm all night I realised how tiring the experience can be. Reading about looking up at the tops of waves while standing in the cockpit is very different than the experience. Reading about spending several weeks on 32' boat is definately different than the experience. I guess the longest that I have been aboard non-stop is about 5 days. This was not at sea but motoring up the Tenn-Tom a couple of years ago. The experience has made us want a little larger boat. But not much larger as finding an anchorage would have been very hard with a larger boat.  Ross I am not critical of you ... most of what you write is good stuff. I was just wondering how much was from a book and how much was experience. More broadly I wonder if people advocating sailing a Catalina 27 around the world have ever been at sea in a Catalina 27. Daysailing doesn't count a couple day passage in the open ocean counts.

 

[Jim]

I respect Ross's Reading

but I have prayed a few time to get through a rough ride outside. I would rather be reading a book. Thunder all around the boat, 100 MPH windshear, 10 feet following seas. Oh, lots of fun. But I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. Anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger.Ross, you just might be doing something right. I am sure you'll get out there when you are ready!The first time we took a boat up the coast from Fla, we hit a large tunder storm. I told the captain to put the auto-P on and go inside the cabin to wait it out. That may have save a life because the bimni poles broke and were swinging all around the cockpit. I learned that in a book.PS: Was that constructive?

 

[Ross]

Moonsailor, Lyn Pardey is superb at discribing

her emotions in the circumstances encountered at sea. You don't need to fall into very many mud puddles before you have a pretty good idea about what it would be like to have a "North To Alaska" style fight in a muddy street. I used to say to Nancy when we were getting freezing rain, "Let's go sit in the cockpit on the boat and pretend we are crossing the North Atlantic in March." She would ask for another brandy and would I put another log on the fire.I have stood many night watches while in the service. Some can be brutal and some can be wonderful.Experience can be a teacher or it can be a validator of an education. I knew nothing about anchoring before I read the first chapter concerning ground tackle and keeping the boat in one place when you stop. Some people seem to have learned that as long as the anchor is touching the bottom and the rope is tied to something that they are anchored. Then they wonder what went wrong when the wind blows and their boat drifts away. For them experience has not taught them well.

 

[jimq26]

Ross - her name is Lin Pardey.

(nm)

 

[Ross]

Jimq26, At some level I probably knew that

but thanks for the reminder.http://www.landlpardey.com/Where/Where_Now.html

 

[sailaway78]

For Shame Ross

You have made a major transgression here. Spelling Lin with a Y. Glad jim caught you. He will probably vote for tar and feathers, and a ride out of town on a rail. I'll be a little more lenient and just call for the tar and feathers. Shame on you Ross.

 

[sailaway78]

Lots of advice given

This subject gets kicked to hell and back every time it comes up. No one can answer this for you, at least not very specifically. You need to first decide what comfort level you will require. The bigger the boat, the more comfort, more cost and more maintenance. There are boats that can and have circumnavigated that are so small I would not want to spend a weekend on. The skill of the skipper is about as big a deal as the size of the boat, or more so. An idiot probably couldn't make it across the N Atlantic, no matter how much boat he was on. How many on board. More bodies means more food and water, which means more storage. Fuel and water tankage is a big consideration. For example, are you willing to go for weeks without a shower, or a salt water shower at best. Will you have enough fuel to make you destination should the wind totally quit, ( the doldrums for example ) or enough food and water if you have to sit it out. That being said, there are some very, very well built older boats around. TonyB has an Allied 39 that is a true blue water boat. You can certainly find one of these in your price range. Learn to sail, and to sail well. Read everything you can get your hands on. Decide how much boat you need for your own requirements, not something based on someone elses opinion. Then go shopping. The above comments are my own personal opinions, and are worth just about what they cost you to read them.