Mechanical Question....

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Paul H

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Nov 2, 2005
91
- - Ohio
I was out in my boat yesterday, moving it from one marina to another...about a 30nm trip. When we slipped the dock, everything was hunky dory...once out in the water making the transit to the other marina, I noticed that I wasn't going as fast as I usually do at the set RPM's. Normally I get 5 - 6 kts @3000 RPM...but we were only making 3.5 kts. There was no opposing currents to speak of...so I started to wonder...as I wondered, I then noticed that the RPM's were fluctuating down to 2000 and then back to 3000. We got about 1/2 way there and the engine started to "brown out"...slowly dropping RPM until it just stopped. It sounded very much like fuel starvation, and we immediately checked the fuel filter...in fact we were getting fuel right up to the injectors, but didn't see anything coming out of the return side. Try as we might...we couldn't get it re-started. Due to the lack of fuel on the return side...is this suggestive of a broken injector pump? I'm not a mechanic by any stretch...but I can perform minor repairs on my Yanmar...so I was wondering if any of you experienced anything like this, or may know what the issue may be...I have an inboard Yanmar 1GM10 with about 350 hours on it. Any help would be greatly appreciated...
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Paul, is there any posibilty that the return line has been

damaged? Do you get a return fuel flow when you loosen the connection closest to the engine? A block in the fuel system could starve the engine if fuel couldn't make the entire circuit. It is awfully early for the pump to fail.
 

Dan H

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Oct 9, 2005
143
Catalina C25 SW Michigan
I had a similar problem

My friend asked me to find out why the combine wouldn't run. It would start, then quit after a few seconds. I found the fuel return fitting on the injector pump was actually a check valve that got jammed with debris. He had to clean out this little fitting several times during the harvest. The engine would just shut down. The check valve was a little 1/4" npt fitting screwed right on the pump. Found out the pump was loosing some parts inside.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
On a Yanmar ... your symptoms are suggestive of

Plugged fuel filter. Plugged inlet screen on dip tub in tank Plugged fuel filter Damaged diaphragm in lift pump Plugged fuel filter. What was the gage pressure on the fuel filter? That the engine was 'hunting' in rpm is VERY suggestive of a fuel blockage problem ... probably at the fuel filter, etc.
 

Paul H

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Nov 2, 2005
91
- - Ohio
Ross...

I can'r see how it could be damaged...I'm very regular with getting the engine serviced...I'm sure that a mechaninc would have let me know (at least I hope). Once the engine quit running...like I said, I checked the fuel filter (which had been changed about 5-6 months prior)...it seemed good, and there was fuel after the filter. I then moved up the engine in a logical fashion...following the flow of fuel, and there was fuel going into the injector...on the other side, however, there was nothing going to the return line. if I understand your question, then this would be the connection closest to the engine... I'm very puzzled about this one.... Would water in the fuel cause this as well?
 
Nov 28, 2004
209
Hunter 310 San Pedro
Other possibility

How much fuel in the tank, water conditions, could your pickup be sucking air and thereby starving the engine. Air will not compress enough to open or fully open the injectors. Dennis W. S/V FullSailed
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Fuel starvation

What you have described sounds like a fuel starvation problem to me. Keep in mind that if the pickup in the tank is clogged, and you don't get fuel from the tank, you will still have fuel in the filter and lines. If you were to find air in the lines, you would have an air leak somewhere. Check the fuel pickup in the tank, for a stopped up screen.
 
Jun 2, 2004
1,438
Oday 25 pittsburgh
What was the temp out there?

It could be ice! If you were getting full flow to the injectors, it could be over loading them.(or was it partial flow?) It doesn't take much water to freeze, lower flow, or clog a line. Second question, Have you worked on the fuel filters lately? Could something you did be the problem? My brother is having a bad problem in Fla. on his boat. He is getting air when the boat is at rest and then has to bleed it to start it, every time! Once it starts, it runs until it is shut down. Yours sounds like a filter failing (clogging) and starving the motor. When the motor started to stall, did you try to throttle up? Shows lack of flow. When you throttled up, did it resist and slow down? If you power down and the boat speed resumes, it shows a lack of fuel flow. Have you check for flow to all the injectors? I would check one first. Have you pulled an injector? This is starting to get deep into things. I would open the fuel line that you can capture the fuel so that you can see if it has good flow. Have you used any additives? OK, you are free to go :). sorry about all the questions. The answers may help. No fair, it took me 30 minutes to type this and some of these guys are on the same page. r.w.landau
 
H

higgs

Long shot

Make sure your tank vent is not clogged with spider webs.
 

Paul H

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Nov 2, 2005
91
- - Ohio
R.W....all good questions...

But I don't think it was ice...it was too warm for that... but you bring up something that perhaps I did forget to mention...Indeed, when it was starting to stall, it did resist...and when I eased off on the throttle...it went back to normal for a while...and the began to fluctuate again. The fuel filter was replaced about 6 months ago (by me) and it's been running like a top until yesterday...
 
Jun 1, 2005
772
Pearson 303 Robinhood, ME
Higgs could be right.

Obstructed...fuel vent? Would that do it? Not much of a mechanic... but I was snow blowing the driveway the other day and the snowblower started to run bad (all of a sudden... ran fine for 3 years) then finally stopped. I primed and restarted... it ran for a couple of minutes and stopped. Ditto... Ditto... Ditto... Being the Frenchman that I am... I unscrewed the fuel cap... looked to see if there was any fuel in the tank... everything O.K. there... put the cap back on... and it ran fine for the next 2 hours. (Broke vaccuum... I think) Another scenerio... I taped the fuel vent shut over the winter to keep air and moisture out while it was in the back yard. Then went down to get some diesel to top the tank off... again being the Frenchman that I am... I attempted to pour in 5 gallons... fuel went all over the deck and did not go down the filler. Attempted again... same result. Took the fuel stick out and inserted... was room for 5 more gallons. Scratched head... took the tape of the vent... noproblemo! Just a thought, Rich
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,736
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Fuel vent

Gotta have a vent in the tank or she won't run for long.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,759
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Souds like plugging fuel filters

As a fuel filter plugs, with the engine running at cruise rpm, the fuel pump can create a vacuum. By the time you get to the engine to check fuel supply that vacuum has filled the filters again, all be it very slowly and not fast enough to keep up with a running engine for very long. Many times the engine will start only to be choked again as the filter can't keep up. Start with replacing the primary and secondary filters first. If that does not fix it move to other things but having had many fuel filters plug over the years it's very similar to what you describe.. If you remove the pick up tube from the tank and it has a screen on it REMOVE IT!
 
Jun 2, 2004
1,438
Oday 25 pittsburgh
Like Maine Sail said.

r.w. Edited to add: Just because you change filters, doesn't mean that the tank is clean....
 
J

Joe Mullee

Vacuum Guage Question

I have a Racor 230. Does anyone know if the vacuum guages will work on any filter? Or does the filter need to be made to accept a vacuum guage? Joe Mullee
 
Jan 13, 2006
134
- - Chesapeke
FWIW

FWIW if the return line is swelling shut or clogged the engine will start reving higher and higher to use up the fuel. Not at all the problem described. Learned this on with an old Cummins powered rocket truck on I64, Whew!
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
On most recent made Racors there is a gage port ....

Its usually plugged with a plastic plug. If there isnt a gage port you can always install the gage into the line diownstream of filter housing with a tee .... can be located any place between the filter and the lift pump.
 
Jun 3, 2004
418
Island Packet Island Packet 29 West River, MD
Thanks Rich

I'm trying to visualize my Racor 230 and I don't think it has that plug. But I definitely want to add the guage and will look into adding it as you have described. Thanks Again, Joe Mullee
 
A

Anchor Down

Putting Down My Money

My bet is the pick-up tube in the tank, since that is the only place you haven't serviced: stalled me out same as you, and I ran through the entire system, scratching my head. I even cleaned the tank and re-filled to no effect, until I pulled out that tube and saw the screen 98% blocked. Could've have saved myself a lot of trouble if I'd looked there earlier. That you have fuel in your lines means nothing. Think about it: if it is the screen, it would stop the fuel from flowing, not make it disappear from the line. The reason the return line is empty is because there is no excess left to return: as the screen progressively clogged, there has been less and less excess to be returned, until now there is almost no fuel allowed to move through th system at all. Come back and tell us what happened. Jeff
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
ummmm Sorry Maine, what you state is totally unsubstantiated.

Being involved deeply with filtration engineering for well over 30+ years its VASTLY BETTER from a hydrodynamic as well as filtration efficiency standpoint to put any pump on the INLET side of a filter. If there is a proper screen downstream (similar to but with sufficient surface area in comparison to whats normally found on the suction side of the dip tubes (grossly undersized), there is no need as such pumps will handle particulate well into 100µM without difficulty or harm. One must acknowledge that the particles in most diesel fuel systems are 'soft' and deformable with few hard particles such as scale, rust, etc. Its the same with automotive high pressure systems, automotive (truck and locomotive), aircraft, ship and stationary prime mover (generator) systems. The only poor reason to operate a fuel vacuum delivery system is to match the characteristiclyh poor copper tube/compression fitting system (cheap and dirty) so that if there is a leak, the system sucks air and stops instead of filling the bilge with oil. Filtration efficiency is much better with pressure feed (debris deposition considerations), the pump will not stall (single stage pumps will slip at 6" hg. vac.) while being able to deliver upwards of 15 psig in the pressure feed mode, etc. etc. Flow through a filter is based on characteristic pressure (or vacuum) versus flow rate. If a vacuum pump normally stalls at 6 inhg.vac. (approx -3psi motive force) will be about 1/5 (15 psig) the motive force available if the SAME pump would be in pressure feed mode .... which on ANY filter flow vs. differential pressure curve will show that you can have 5 times the maximum flow rate (or approx. five times the service life) in pressure mode versus vacuum mode .... up to the limit at which the pump either stalls or slips. Each filter needs its own gage. Most Racors will handle upwards of 30 psi pressure before the pleats collapse or will exhibit 'breakthrough'. A well and proper designed pressure feed system with matching hose/tube/fittings, etc. is VASTLY superior to a vacuum feed. A pressure feed system that is monitored by a pressure switch that signals sudden drops in pressure (like on an automobile with an installed pressure safety cut off switch) is all thats needed to detect 'leaks' ... so that if there is a leak the electric pump will automatically shut down. The financial problem for 'boat builders' is that a system built of stainless double flared tube plus matching connections, high pressure and rated flex tube, putting a 12vdc pump IN/ON the tank and the proper monitoring system ...... is more expensive. The typical vacuum system is 'silly' from a fuel delivery standpoint. The only saving factor for those with poor maintenance skills and techniques it will fail 'safe' ..... and as your boat drifts toward the rocks because of a poor design fuel system. I include not routinely maintaining tank cleanliness along with poor maintenance skills. Just look at the HIGH PRESSURE side of the injection pump, its well designed and hardly ever leaks, doesnt it. A vacuum motive fuel system is simply 'cheap and dirty'. BTW - the usage of vacuum gages on a vacuum motive system is only valid ..... while reading the gages while the engine is at wide-open-throttle (WOT). If you have ~ 6" hg. vac or -3 psig, the filter is near its full capacity of debris. Since Racors are the most common, go to Parker.com --> marine ---> racor ... and look up the flow versus differential pressure curves for your filter; look up the maximum consumption of fuel for your engine in gph or lph and enter the curve and find the corresponding vacuum or pressure differential .... that will establish the highest vacuum or pressure on the gage so that you are sure of adequate flow to the engine at WOT. Most will change out at 75% of that pressure gage value. ;-)
 
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