Peggy, After replacing all hoses that-failed the hot rag test (except macerator out and pump out hose) with the hose you recommend, we're still trying to rid ourselves of a nasty stink. We've replaced the macerator unit, completly took the front head out of the system (removed the 18' nasty hose & think we sealed off the intake port on the tank), even replaced the vent hose (still at 3/4", no room for larger dia) and use KO. There is evidence of an air leak at the PVC fittings into the tank (aluminuim tank, no signs of leaks). We want to replace the fittings, but they seem to be cemented in. Question 1 - do you have advice on how to remove the fittings? We also want to create more ventilation, but the room we have to work with is very, very limited (behind electrical panel) so; Question 2 - could we turn the pump out hose into a vent also? The plan being, to install a clamshell type fitting where the pump out access screw plug is currently. So far, the 3/4" vent is sufficent for avoiding implosions during pump out. As other 40.5 owners have described in previous posts, we have a custom made alum. tank of unusual shape next to the navigation station midship. Thanks for all your help!
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Matt, all us 40.5er's have the same problem
Our 40.5 has a substantial stink too and we use Odorlos. This spring I am replacing the holding tank with a polyproplene tank that is made by Triple M Plastics in Maine. I have removed my metal tank and can confirm Don's input that the fittings are simply threaded into the tank. You will have to cut off two of the fittings because they can't be turned to un-screw in place (just like Don said). I spent a considerable amount of time and also conferred with Peggie on the phone about how to create a cross ventilation path in this tank. The bottom line is that you just can't do it. So my solution is that I have increased the existing vent size from 3/4" to 1". Although I haven't looked in detail yet, I do believe that the 1' hose and it's associated thru-hull and elbow will fit behind the electrical panel. Regarding your idea of using the pumpout hose as a vent, it will not work because the pumpout hose goes to the bottom of the tank and air will not have enough pressure to enter the tank. You need vent hoses that are above the level of the contents. Since a second vent hose is impossible to route satisfactorily, I am installing a bubbling system into the tank to inject air into the contents. I have already purchased a 12V air pump that delivers 90 liters of air per hour and I just need to design an air plemum that will be inserted in the tank. I had an additional 1.5" opening placed into the new tank for this express purpose. I believe I can run the pump from a solar panel most of the day and on the house batteries at night. I will see if I can get by with running the air pump only during the day, or perhaps on a timer. My boat lives on a mooring so power is limited. I will soon know if I am successful. I will post my results.
Our 40.5 has a substantial stink too and we use Odorlos. This spring I am replacing the holding tank with a polyproplene tank that is made by Triple M Plastics in Maine. I have removed my metal tank and can confirm Don's input that the fittings are simply threaded into the tank. You will have to cut off two of the fittings because they can't be turned to un-screw in place (just like Don said). I spent a considerable amount of time and also conferred with Peggie on the phone about how to create a cross ventilation path in this tank. The bottom line is that you just can't do it. So my solution is that I have increased the existing vent size from 3/4" to 1". Although I haven't looked in detail yet, I do believe that the 1' hose and it's associated thru-hull and elbow will fit behind the electrical panel. Regarding your idea of using the pumpout hose as a vent, it will not work because the pumpout hose goes to the bottom of the tank and air will not have enough pressure to enter the tank. You need vent hoses that are above the level of the contents. Since a second vent hose is impossible to route satisfactorily, I am installing a bubbling system into the tank to inject air into the contents. I have already purchased a 12V air pump that delivers 90 liters of air per hour and I just need to design an air plemum that will be inserted in the tank. I had an additional 1.5" opening placed into the new tank for this express purpose. I believe I can run the pump from a solar panel most of the day and on the house batteries at night. I will see if I can get by with running the air pump only during the day, or perhaps on a timer. My boat lives on a mooring so power is limited. I will soon know if I am successful. I will post my results.
You're right, it's a crazy idea.
First, unless the tank is leaking--air or effluent--the holding tank is rarely if ever the source of odor INSIDE the boat...'cuz unless there's a leak, odor from inside the tank has only one place to go--out the tank vent. So if you're trying to eliminate odor inside the boat by increasing ventilation to the tank, trying different tank products etc, you're just chasing your tail...but it should improve what comes out the tank vent. Question 1 - do you have advice on how to remove the fittings? You're better off replacing the tank. 'Cuz metal tanks typically start to leak at seam or fitting weld within 2-5 years, and turn into a collander within 10 years. I wouldn't put ANY labor or parts into one...replace it with a plastic tank. Question 2 - could we turn the pump out hose into a vent also? No. For reasons already mentioned, it wouldn't work and would also create new problems. If you have odor inside the boat, we need to find the source...a wet bilge in need of a serious cleaning for a change that includes flushing ALL the dirty water out..dirty sumps...permeated sanitation hoses...trapped water below the sole somwhere that can't drain.... stagnant sea water or sea life trapped in the head intake... Odors are always strongest at their source...so follow your nose when you first come aboard after the boat has been closed up. When you find and eliminate the source, you'll get rid of the odor. However, it's not likely to be a permanent cure because bilges and sumps get dirty again...new water becomes trapped below the sole. So if want to keep your boat odor-free, you'll have to stay after it.
First, unless the tank is leaking--air or effluent--the holding tank is rarely if ever the source of odor INSIDE the boat...'cuz unless there's a leak, odor from inside the tank has only one place to go--out the tank vent. So if you're trying to eliminate odor inside the boat by increasing ventilation to the tank, trying different tank products etc, you're just chasing your tail...but it should improve what comes out the tank vent. Question 1 - do you have advice on how to remove the fittings? You're better off replacing the tank. 'Cuz metal tanks typically start to leak at seam or fitting weld within 2-5 years, and turn into a collander within 10 years. I wouldn't put ANY labor or parts into one...replace it with a plastic tank. Question 2 - could we turn the pump out hose into a vent also? No. For reasons already mentioned, it wouldn't work and would also create new problems. If you have odor inside the boat, we need to find the source...a wet bilge in need of a serious cleaning for a change that includes flushing ALL the dirty water out..dirty sumps...permeated sanitation hoses...trapped water below the sole somwhere that can't drain.... stagnant sea water or sea life trapped in the head intake... Odors are always strongest at their source...so follow your nose when you first come aboard after the boat has been closed up. When you find and eliminate the source, you'll get rid of the odor. However, it's not likely to be a permanent cure because bilges and sumps get dirty again...new water becomes trapped below the sole. So if want to keep your boat odor-free, you'll have to stay after it.
Where can we order a tank..fast?
Peggy, Our tank is most likely 12 years old, original with the boat. My girlfriend is going absolutely crazy because we are living aboard and the smell is awful and we have read EVERY post on here about the topic, we know the smell is strongest where all the hoses go into the tank. We have cleaned the bilge per your directions and have had EVERY floorboard up to inspect for standing water anywhere else in the boat. Since we live aboard, everything gets used and flushed pretty often, and we do not have to even close it up and come back to notice the smell and determine where it is stongest. The smell IS coming from the tank, but there are not obvious signs it is leaking. We have replaced all the hoses that had smell to them (used a warm rag to test). When we put pressure on the top of the tank, we can hear air seeping out from one of the PVC connections (with elbow attached to hose). From what others have said, we cannot replace these PVC pieces, and may be stuck on a boat that smells like feces for months waiting for a custom made tank that will fit this dumb space. We have completly cut the front head out and capped it off. We could put a new tank under the vberth and run a hose from the front head to it, but that will involve creating a new pumpout and thru hull vent and things we would need a lot of guidance to do. Do you have any suggestions to seal the PVC until a new tank can be put in? Any improvement would be a major improvement. If there are no sealants known to man (or woman) that will seal a hairline crack in PVC, perhaps you could recommend a source for a new tank. Since we haven't had the current tank up, I assume it needs to be a custom built tank.
Final thought - what do you think about Rich's idea about the bubbler in the tank? Will it work, is it hard to install/maintain? We're willing to solve the issue, regardless of cost (I think). :/ Thanks, 2 frustrated and stinky liveaboards.
Peggy, Our tank is most likely 12 years old, original with the boat. My girlfriend is going absolutely crazy because we are living aboard and the smell is awful and we have read EVERY post on here about the topic, we know the smell is strongest where all the hoses go into the tank. We have cleaned the bilge per your directions and have had EVERY floorboard up to inspect for standing water anywhere else in the boat. Since we live aboard, everything gets used and flushed pretty often, and we do not have to even close it up and come back to notice the smell and determine where it is stongest. The smell IS coming from the tank, but there are not obvious signs it is leaking. We have replaced all the hoses that had smell to them (used a warm rag to test). When we put pressure on the top of the tank, we can hear air seeping out from one of the PVC connections (with elbow attached to hose). From what others have said, we cannot replace these PVC pieces, and may be stuck on a boat that smells like feces for months waiting for a custom made tank that will fit this dumb space. We have completly cut the front head out and capped it off. We could put a new tank under the vberth and run a hose from the front head to it, but that will involve creating a new pumpout and thru hull vent and things we would need a lot of guidance to do. Do you have any suggestions to seal the PVC until a new tank can be put in? Any improvement would be a major improvement. If there are no sealants known to man (or woman) that will seal a hairline crack in PVC, perhaps you could recommend a source for a new tank. Since we haven't had the current tank up, I assume it needs to be a custom built tank.
Final thought - what do you think about Rich's idea about the bubbler in the tank? Will it work, is it hard to install/maintain? We're willing to solve the issue, regardless of cost (I think). :/ Thanks, 2 frustrated and stinky liveaboards.Rich - Can we get some info from you?
Rich, If we may... how much will your new tank cost? What was the delivery time? Do you still have plans for your tank and bubbler system? We're desperate (liveaboards)! Thanks! Matt
Rich, If we may... how much will your new tank cost? What was the delivery time? Do you still have plans for your tank and bubbler system? We're desperate (liveaboards)! Thanks! Matt
PVC can be sealed...
It's polyethylene that nothing will bond to permanentally. There are all kinds of glues, cements etc that will seal PVC. Aerating the tank contents--provided it's done correctly (see the installation instructions for the Groco Sweetank system here http://www.groco.net/parts/data/622.pdf )--will eliminate odor out the tank vent, but it won't cure odor inside the boat. If your existing tank is more than about 6' from the forward head, the best thing you can do is put a second tank in that is within 6' of the toilet. Check the Ronco Plastics catalog for a tank that'll fit..they have more than 400 shapes and sizes, including over 100 non-rectangular. If they don't have one, there are two custom tank builders that have gotten good reviews from their customers: http://www.triplemplastics.net/ http://www.seafabtanks.com/ Delivery time for any of 'em is about two weeks after they get your drawing. Where are you, Matt? Unless you're in SoCal, RI, or the Great Lakes, there may be another solution that'll solve your whole problem permanently. You might also check out the link below...
It's polyethylene that nothing will bond to permanentally. There are all kinds of glues, cements etc that will seal PVC. Aerating the tank contents--provided it's done correctly (see the installation instructions for the Groco Sweetank system here http://www.groco.net/parts/data/622.pdf )--will eliminate odor out the tank vent, but it won't cure odor inside the boat. If your existing tank is more than about 6' from the forward head, the best thing you can do is put a second tank in that is within 6' of the toilet. Check the Ronco Plastics catalog for a tank that'll fit..they have more than 400 shapes and sizes, including over 100 non-rectangular. If they don't have one, there are two custom tank builders that have gotten good reviews from their customers: http://www.triplemplastics.net/ http://www.seafabtanks.com/ Delivery time for any of 'em is about two weeks after they get your drawing. Where are you, Matt? Unless you're in SoCal, RI, or the Great Lakes, there may be another solution that'll solve your whole problem permanently. You might also check out the link below...
A permanent fix!?!?!
Peggy, We're in Charelston, SC. What's the permanent solution? Holy grail of waste holding tanks? We have two options- put a new one midship (less than 6' from the aft head which is all fitted with the hose you recommend and pumpout and whatnot) or create a whole new holding tank and all the appropriate outlets in the vberth (also less than 6' away from that head). Again, as we are living aboard, time is of the essence, but we want to fix it right for the long term. As we speak, we have a new symptom, after a flush, the tank bubbles back into the head (which it always did when we had two heads and a full tank). According to other posts, I believe we should take a look at the thru hull vent fitting tomorrow to see if it is clogged, correct? Seems like the tank should be able to relieve pressure through the leaky PVC at this point, though. Not sure what is going on..... Thanks again for your help.
Peggy, We're in Charelston, SC. What's the permanent solution? Holy grail of waste holding tanks? We have two options- put a new one midship (less than 6' from the aft head which is all fitted with the hose you recommend and pumpout and whatnot) or create a whole new holding tank and all the appropriate outlets in the vberth (also less than 6' away from that head). Again, as we are living aboard, time is of the essence, but we want to fix it right for the long term. As we speak, we have a new symptom, after a flush, the tank bubbles back into the head (which it always did when we had two heads and a full tank). According to other posts, I believe we should take a look at the thru hull vent fitting tomorrow to see if it is clogged, correct? Seems like the tank should be able to relieve pressure through the leaky PVC at this point, though. Not sure what is going on..... Thanks again for your help.
Tank saga continues
Matt sorry to hear the problem persists - it's starting to sound like a vent problem but Peggy can give you expert advice. If you need it while I have my tank in the garage, let me know and I can give you some good dimensions and more pics if you go the new tank route and need specs to build it. Don
Matt sorry to hear the problem persists - it's starting to sound like a vent problem but Peggy can give you expert advice. If you need it while I have my tank in the garage, let me know and I can give you some good dimensions and more pics if you go the new tank route and need specs to build it. Don
Don - cost & source?
Don, Would you mind sharing cost/source info with us? Do you plan on installing a bubbler system also? Thanks, Matt sailcatalyst at excite dot com
Don, Would you mind sharing cost/source info with us? Do you plan on installing a bubbler system also? Thanks, Matt sailcatalyst at excite dot com
Matt: See The Link ...
... for the site of Triple M Plastics. I also have a 40.5 replacement tank on order through them. It will run you in the neighborhood of four hundred. They have the specifications. I am going to a 1" vent. It will likely take a month or two to get the tank. They will just get busier as summer approaches. I suspect you have permiation on the tank seams that is causing odor. It doesn't take much. Also,the tank vent hose is the worst. It will trap anything. It needs to be replaced with a smooth-bore hose. Good luck. Just keep telling your girlfriend that there IS a solution and you WILL find it. *o Rick D.
... for the site of Triple M Plastics. I also have a 40.5 replacement tank on order through them. It will run you in the neighborhood of four hundred. They have the specifications. I am going to a 1" vent. It will likely take a month or two to get the tank. They will just get busier as summer approaches. I suspect you have permiation on the tank seams that is causing odor. It doesn't take much. Also,the tank vent hose is the worst. It will trap anything. It needs to be replaced with a smooth-bore hose. Good luck. Just keep telling your girlfriend that there IS a solution and you WILL find it. *o Rick D.
Thanks
Thanks Rick. We replaced the vent hose (with the right stuff) on Thursday night. As an added bonus, we got free forearm scratches and a kinked neck. How do you plan to fit the 1" vent hose with your new tank? Do you also plan on using a bubbler? Cheers, Matt
Thanks Rick. We replaced the vent hose (with the right stuff) on Thursday night. As an added bonus, we got free forearm scratches and a kinked neck. How do you plan to fit the 1" vent hose with your new tank? Do you also plan on using a bubbler? Cheers, Matt
Matt- some answers.....
Wow, I just got back to this thread and it has exploded! Yes, I have the drawing from Hunter for this tank. Both Rick Dinon and I have ordered a tank from Triple M in Maine and we are supposed to have our tanks shipped out on Monday to us. Cost was $362 plus shipping. Considering the complexity of the tank I think that is a reasonable price. I can email you the pdf drawing of the tank and I can also send you the info that I have on my plan to bubble the tank. Alternatively yo can buy the Groco SweetTank system and that would do the same thing. If you want to contact Triple M, they should be able to build you a tank. They are getting busy and I have no idea what their delivery time is now. Their contact information is: Katrin Kroyer Manager 1-800-873-7767 triplemplastics@adelphia.net http://www.triplemplastics.net/ This tank is quite complex and they have only one person that they feel is capable of building the unit. However, since they have just built two of them, they should be well up on the learning curve for this tank. Give Katrin a call- she is very nice and will be helpful. Email me through the owner's directory and I will send you the pdf drawing of the tank.
Wow, I just got back to this thread and it has exploded! Yes, I have the drawing from Hunter for this tank. Both Rick Dinon and I have ordered a tank from Triple M in Maine and we are supposed to have our tanks shipped out on Monday to us. Cost was $362 plus shipping. Considering the complexity of the tank I think that is a reasonable price. I can email you the pdf drawing of the tank and I can also send you the info that I have on my plan to bubble the tank. Alternatively yo can buy the Groco SweetTank system and that would do the same thing. If you want to contact Triple M, they should be able to build you a tank. They are getting busy and I have no idea what their delivery time is now. Their contact information is: Katrin Kroyer Manager 1-800-873-7767 triplemplastics@adelphia.net http://www.triplemplastics.net/ This tank is quite complex and they have only one person that they feel is capable of building the unit. However, since they have just built two of them, they should be well up on the learning curve for this tank. Give Katrin a call- she is very nice and will be helpful. Email me through the owner's directory and I will send you the pdf drawing of the tank.
Rich, can't find you in the directory....
Rich, THANK YOU. I just called the factory and the guy working on your tank answered, even though they are not open today. He said he could make another pretty quickly since he has the plans for yours. So, we do not need the plans for the tank, but advice on a bubbling system would be much appreciated. If we choose to go with the premade system you mentioned, would we need to add the same modifications you have on your tank (I'm assuming you are having him add some type of port for the bubbler)? Also, in the plans he has for you, did you maintian the number of openings, and add a 1" vent? Thanks again for all of your help, you have saved us countless hours and headache trying to measure the tank and whatnot... we really appreciate this... Amanda and Matt
Rich, THANK YOU. I just called the factory and the guy working on your tank answered, even though they are not open today. He said he could make another pretty quickly since he has the plans for yours. So, we do not need the plans for the tank, but advice on a bubbling system would be much appreciated. If we choose to go with the premade system you mentioned, would we need to add the same modifications you have on your tank (I'm assuming you are having him add some type of port for the bubbler)? Also, in the plans he has for you, did you maintian the number of openings, and add a 1" vent? Thanks again for all of your help, you have saved us countless hours and headache trying to measure the tank and whatnot... we really appreciate this... Amanda and Matt
A few things you need to know about aerators
There's a lot more engineering to the Groco Sweetank system than most people realize. A small pump and a hose going into the tank won't work...the air has to be distributed throughout the tank contents. If it's not, the pump will just push noxious gasses out the vent. It must also run 24/7/365 to keep the tank contents aerobic...and also to prevent sludge from clogging up the vents in the piping--which was a difficult issue for Groco to solve. Their original piping did clog up and had to be redesigned. The Groco system doesn't use much power--only requires a 3 amp fuse...but any power drain can be problematic for a boat that isn't connected to shore power to keep the batteries charged. But when designed, installed, operated and maintained correctly, aerators do work, even with the standard 5/8" vent. However, most tanks under about 35 gallons can be passively maintained aerobically without the need for aeration if they're vented to allow plenty of air exhange and either K.O. or Odorlos is used in the tank.
There's a lot more engineering to the Groco Sweetank system than most people realize. A small pump and a hose going into the tank won't work...the air has to be distributed throughout the tank contents. If it's not, the pump will just push noxious gasses out the vent. It must also run 24/7/365 to keep the tank contents aerobic...and also to prevent sludge from clogging up the vents in the piping--which was a difficult issue for Groco to solve. Their original piping did clog up and had to be redesigned. The Groco system doesn't use much power--only requires a 3 amp fuse...but any power drain can be problematic for a boat that isn't connected to shore power to keep the batteries charged. But when designed, installed, operated and maintained correctly, aerators do work, even with the standard 5/8" vent. However, most tanks under about 35 gallons can be passively maintained aerobically without the need for aeration if they're vented to allow plenty of air exhange and either K.O. or Odorlos is used in the tank.
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