Max motor weight for Widgeon transom

[Scootypuff]

Have a '70 or '71 Widgeon that I'm bringing up to Cape Cod to sail out of Harwichport. I want to use a motor for transitting a channel but the only one I have is a 6hp Evinrude originally bought for a 19' keel boat.

I would estimate the weight at around 50 pounds. Obviously this is more motor than this vessel needs, but it's the only one I have. I'm hoping I can counter balance the motor with some extra weight forward.

The tldr (too long didn't read) question is, does anyone have any experience or input given the above?

Below, are some more thought and figures.

Passenger configurations include:

Configuration 1: 2 kids at 50 pounds and 30 pounds for 80 pounds total

Configuration 2: 2 kids at 50 pounds and 30 pounds, and an adult at 145 pounds

Configuration 3: 1 adult at 180 pounds

In each configuration there will always be 200 pounds of ballast attached to the end of the tiller handle.

Assume the motor weighs 50 pounds, also assume 2 gallons of fuel (16 pounds), 2 gallons water (16 pounds), and standard safety items (fire extinguisher, hand air horn, pfd's).

According to a *standard* max weight calculation, (12' length * 5' width) / 15 = 4 people each weighing 150 pounds (yeah right, in my little Widgeon, hahahahaha). But in general, that equates to 600 pounds of potential weight.

Now 600 pounds certainly sounds like too much weight, especially since a lot of it would be well above the water line (better keep that centerboard down).

Then again, if you dumped 38 gallons of water (equalling 600 pounds) into it, I'll bet there'd still be lots of freeboard.

If nobody has any experience with this, I invite you to watch me risk motor and vessel at Harwichport's Saquatucket boat ramp over Labor Day weekend. And afterwards I'll report on my findings for the benefit of all.

 

[Sunbird22358]

Well, that motor is way too big, I used a 2 hp on mine (1969 model Widgeon). The real problem is that once you get out of the harbor and are ready to sail..... that 6hp will be in the way clamped to the transom, but even more in the way if you take it off and lay it in the cockpit. I don't think the weight of the outboard is as much of a problem and hte physical size, the Widgeon has a pretty buoyant stern, and so wil lsupport the weight...... but a motor that big wil ldefinitely interfere with the mainsheet while sailing. For reference: 1965-79 Evinrude 6 weighed about 55# 1984 and later (2-stroke) weighed 58.5# both figures assume long-shaft.

I'd look into finding a used 2 hp outboard (I had a 1984 Johnson, 24#) with the Johnson/Evinrude 1972-90 models being the same as mine, Mariner/Suzuki/Yamaha 1990 or older. Price range $100 to 300. The 6hp Evinrude will work OK if yo ujust want to go out under power (I'd mount it off-center and steer with rudder... lower CB about 1/2 way) But under sail....... as I say, it will be in the way.

Is your boat a 1970 ? or 1971? Way to tell is does she have a forward deck and a molde-in cockpit? if so.... she is a 1971 or later. If open fro mbow to stern and having wooden seats along the sides, 1970 or older. The 1970 might have room to lay the outboard inside the boat while sailing (just be careful not to take much water over the lee rail!), I'd put it on the port side of the CB trunk to prevent blocking access to the CB lever, Place the lower-unit forward under hte mast partner/cross seat. Newer models may stil lhave room for the outboard in the cockpit....... but it will be tight, port side of cockpit might be best to avoid CB control lines.

I've included a pic of my boat with the 2 hp Johnson, as well as a pic of a 1973 Evinrude 2. I also added a page from the 1978 Johnson brochure to show the 6hp on a Mariner for rference, as well as the page showing a 4 hp on an O'DAY 12 (also shows the 1978 2hp). The O'DAY 12 was a cat-rigged version of hte Widgeon, but with a different deck.

 

[Scootypuff]

Yo Sunbird -- thanks for the feedback. Agreed, a 6 on a 12 is a bit much, but.... not a lot in the sailing kitty for new (used) outboards and this one's what I gots for now.

Glad to hear you don't think the weight will be an issue. I HAD been wondering if it would be in the way of sail controls. When mounted it doesn't actually protrude into the cockpit, and the throttle control is on a hinge to fold clear. But I can test that out when I test rig the boat with a 'yard sail' on the trailer.

The only thing I'd be worried about with removing/fastening the motor would be dropping the thing on the wet side of the hull. Unless I tether it first -- that could work.

If I didn't have to transit a channel, or be concerned about time on the water, I'd leave the motor at the dock.

This model has the covered foredeck with hatch covers, so it's a '71. And orange.

I notice that you have you motor on a hinge -- how does that work?

 

[Sunbird22358]

The only "Hinge" on my outboard was the standard tilt pivot on the outboard, I've labeled the pic of an Evinrude 2hp below, not my old OB, but same model. Your 6 hp should tilt up the same, it will come into the boat a bit as it does and with the mainsheet rigged across the stern they may interfere...... depends on just how you boat is presently rigged (O'DAY still used the same basic mainsheet rigging on the 1971 as on my 1969, but later models (and some older ones changed by previous owners) have a rope traveler across the stern and the mainsheet block is either sliding across that or may be tied amidships. If tied amidships it just might be easier to keep it clear of the outboard.
After looking at that picture of an O'DAY 12 with a 1978 4HP, your 6hp might fit better than I thought...... still, watch it when you tack.... to be sure the mainsheet doesn't get tangled on hte motor's powerhead.

 

[Scootypuff]

Ahhh -- I have very limited experience with outboards. The tilt mechanism makes good sense.

The traveler is indeed mounted on the transom, so this will make for an interesting test.

 

[Brian S]

The Widgeon is a small boat.

I had considered using oars on my 14' GP14. Are oars a possibility for you?

 

[Scootypuff]

Hmmm, oars. Unfortunately there are no oar locks, and no center seat, and rowing slowly thru a channel looking backwards probably wouldn't end well.

Plus, timing is an issue. For instance, one scenario for taking the kids out on the boat is parking the wife and kids at the beach, then launching the boat from a nearby harbor, in which case time is an issue for transiting between the ramp and the beach.

"What took you so long?"

"Well, there was no wind, and my arms got tired."

In the end, what I really need is to convince the wife I need another 2 horse kicker for safety reasons.

 

[Brian S]

Good points, Scooty!

No thwart makes oars a non-starter.

 

[Bryanx]

Reading along this thread in hope I will learn something.

I have a "new" '83 Widgeon that I put in fresh water for the first time on July 5, the day after the remnants of hurricane Andrew skirted Connecticut and made for a very wet 4th of July. I got so excited when the sun broke out the next day that I raced down to the local lake to finally put her in the water after two months of work. I didn't even think that all the runoff from the torrential rain the day before would create such a current. This "lake" is actually a swollen section of the Housatonic River that is dammed on either end. Nor did I even consider wind direction, which was just a calm breeze but blowing straight downriver.

That day was a disaster. After a shaky launch - overgrown tree branches at the edge of the ramp forced me to step the mast by myself while floating offshore rather than on the trailer like I planned. There wasn't any wind in the cove so I had to paddle out with my stupid emergency paddle, plus the foot power of my daughter kicking behind the boat in the water. Once we got out of the cove and I hoisted my daughter back into the Widgeon, I thought things couldn't get worse. The weather was beautiful. Trouble was that between the downwind and current, the boat would only sail in one direction! And it didn't matter which way she was pointed. Every time I tried to tack upriver, the current would push me back again. The only bright moment was when I threw hell to the wind (pun intended) and sailed her downstream for a long run. That was awesome! Sadly, that five minutes of glory was followed by three miserable hours of frustration trying to tack back. I eventually got a tow from a nice gentleman and his family in a pontoon party boat. How embarrassing as we were pulled passed the beach where all the townsfolk were watching!

My daughter vowed to never sail with me again and I vowed I wouldn't sail again without a motor. I've been pondering an OB vs. an electric trolling motor. I don't intend on going near the ocean or bays - any saltwater actually - for quite a while. Lakes are exciting enough for me right now, so an electric trolling with 30-40# of thrust seems good enough. I'm also leaning towards electric because of reliability and compact size. Granted, hauling a 50# battery around won't be easy, but the motor will start with the flip of a switch and there's virtually no maintenance. Any of you more experienced sailors have any advice on electric vs. gas in my situation? If electric, what's the least amount of thrust power I should consider? I've already batted this around a bit with Sunbird and he makes a good case for the 2-3hp OB.

I'm really on the fence and not looking forward to explaining to my wife why I need to spend another $300-400 before I can use my "free" sailboat!

 

[Scootypuff]

Bryanx's post got me thinking, and while my experiences with outboards and motors in general is very limited, they have been very informative.

I sailed several times with a friend who's family owned what they called their 'Ghetto-Sailer', a very un-maintained 35' catamaran. Nice boat, but in rough shape with a single outboard that never got serviced. This boat was moored on the south side of Staten Island, not far from the Amboy River and an area subject to some pretty strong currents. The motor only ran in high gear, and stalled in low gear or at idle. Returning to the mooring once, we motored upwind, against the current, and because we only had high gear, we'd cut the motor and then drift close to the mooring. We'd get real close, but then the current and wind stopped us dead and sent us packing. Then we decided to over shoot the mooring, bringing it between the hulls, and try to snag it as we drifted back. That didn't work either and by now we lost three boat hooks.

In the end, a jet skier towed us to the ball, but the moral here is, maintain yer equipment. Also, when faced with strong currents and wind, not just power, but controllable power can be very important.

The catamaran motor was probably 10hp. When sailing on some other friend's J29 on Lake Champlain, I was struck how happily the boat motored along pushed by only a 3hp kicker. Now, on a lake there are few to any currents, and in this particular scenario, the motor was really just for moving the boat around harbors and if the wind died. But apparently, 3hp was plenty for a big racing boat.

Another time, we were with a third friend in his 40' trawler at the mouth of the Merrimack. Now that is a river outlet with a wicked current. We went kayaking there, too, and when tethered to the dock the kayaks were like kites in the current.

I had never before seen a standing wave, but at the mouth of the Merrimack there was two feet of rolling water created by the fast flowing river contending with high tide. The trawler with 2 diesel engines big enough to power a town barely noticed but it was clear that other power vessels had to take great care in transitting that spot.

Rivers in general can be very touchy, and after a big rain, especially so, as they fill with runoff.

Now, as to Bryanx's wondering about gas versus electric, I couldn't say except there does seem to be a trend towards electric, at least for bigger boats with electrical systems or battery banks. I'm not sure I'd trust a trolling motor. There's an old saying 'there's no replacement for displacement'. Then again, I just saw a propane fueled motor at Westmarine the other day, again probably meant for a bigger boat with integrated propane storage.

In any case, a good motor can be invaluable. My motor was initially intended for a 19' keel boat weighting 2,000 pounds. When first shopping around Craigslist I passed on 3 motors before I found this one; it had a reverse gear, the right amount of horses, and was sold by a guy who restored cars and engines. A perfect fit. Fer the wife who might cast a hairy eye, nothing beats the safety argument. "But honey, it's a safety issue."

Final note, keep in mind if you're going to run a motor, your home state may require a boating safety certificate or license, especially for non-tidal waters and regardless of vessel length.

Best of luck Bryanx.

 

[Scootypuff]

Quick update on my own motor shenanigans, I reported earlier that I have mainsheet traveler mounted to the transom.

I do not, and my memory is not to be trusted.

The Widgeon (at least my year) has two blocks, starboard and port, that the mainsheet feeds through to create a triangle. After test rigging the boat, I don't think the motor will be in the way -- when I test it again I'll take a couple pictures to post here.

 

[Sunbird22358]

That was how the mainsheet on my Widgeon was rigged. The mainsheet could and did get caught on the outboard at times. So, just watch it, and if needed.. guide the mainsheet away from the outboard as you tack. The newer boats with the traveler would be less of a problem (or certainly no more of a problem).

 

[Scootypuff]

The final result -- the *big* 6hp motor is a big pain in the ass.

The wife and I took the Widgeon out on Long Pond in Cape Code for it's first time out. Everything worked just fine. The centerboard action worked fine and although rigging it took a little longer than expected, everything was in good working order.

The Engine: Not too big for the transom. It did have a tendency to get in the way of the rope traveler, but nothing dramatic. The motor did not want to stay tilted up out of the water (where it probably would have been much more in the way) and I think the extra drag had a definite impact on performance. Also, I feel like the boat was a little nose up as a result of having so much weight hanging off the back versus within the cockpit.

I did not use the motor, basically because I think I flooded the damn thing -- so as usually happens, it took an interminable number of tacks to return to the ramp, where the wind was taken by the trees and paddle power was employed for the last 20 yards.

In other threads I've seen advice to keep the mainsheet in hand with the Widgeon in case a stronger gust pushes it over, and it seems sage advice. We did release the mainsheet once when jibing although that was due to new boat nerves than anything else. On successive jibes and when reaching downwind I felt that hopping on the gunwale and using myself as rail meat worked well to counteract any of the gusts we encountered.

We only got one sail during our 5 days on the Cape, but that's the nature of life with two small kids and a baby.

While I still have to test the motor to make sure it runs as well as it did before storage, I will definitely be leaving it home if I can.

The Widgeon will next be plying the waters of Lake Hopatcong in New Jersey, and if I can get the time, in Raritan Bay out of Keyport.

 

[Bryanx]

Thanks for the follow-up Scootypuff. Sounds like a good all around maiden voyage story. Good luck with your next outing!

Meanwhile, my Widgeon is still grounded but I think you convinced me to go for the electric motor because of your flooding experience. That's exactly the outcome I want to avoid. Now I just need to figure out how to sneak the bank withdrawal while my wife isn't looking.

 

[Scootypuff]

Yeah -- I suppose if I had the ducats I'd go for electric, but the big issue I had with the motor was I did not test it before going out (although honestly I didn't have time). I practiced rigging the boat before going out, and I checked out the boat end to end, but I never got a chance to put the motor in a barrel of water and fire it up to see just how much priming it might need (apparently little to none) and even if the thing would turn over after being in storage. The other lesson, of course, is don't be in a hurry (we wound up being late for a birthday party).

In the end, not having a motor was better, and what I was really after anyways, because it forced us to think about our sailing, how many tacks we might need and trying to shape the sails as efficiently as possible. The option to cheat was removed, and we had a better sail for it.