Matt Rutherford's bulkhead issue

bruceblumenstein · Dec 28, 2011

Matt has a camera, maybe he could some pictures of the problem area. -Bruce

bruceblumenstein · Dec 28, 2011

I notice a winch above the bulkhead. Could this be causing a separation from an earlier knockdown strain?

bobnlesafloat · Dec 29, 2011

You say "the (stern-most) bulkhead" but I presume you mean the main bulkhead, between the saloon and forecabin? If it was the cabib/cockpit bulkhead, then "seeing daylight" between the other side and the deckhead wouldn't make sense. Assuming that I'm correct, then it sounds as if the mast support beam has/is failing and will certainly need to be addressed before rounding Cape Horn. You don't say where Matt is - at sea or in harbour and if the latter (hopefully) what repair facilities are available.
I suspect that the problem may have arisen or at least been exacerbated by overtightening the rigging; do you know if Matt has had problems with it going loose and has then cranked it down and possibly unevenly as that would account for a gap at one side and a ridge at the other.
When we sailed Spring Fever it had the Steve Birch supplied reinforcement plate for the mast beam, but for offshore passages we still added temporary/extra support and if Matt could fabricate something similar, he should be OK: -

Take up the forward bilge/battery access panel and put a solid packer (lumps of timber) in the void between floor & keel, immediately below the mast beam
Cut a second timber (for preference the full width of the doorway) and fit that immediately under the mastbeam in the door opening with another timber to sit on the flat section of the floor below - these will help spread the load a little.
Loosen off the rigging and then 'jack-up' the mast beam - when things start 'creaking' stop for a while, let it rest then go again and keep checking that the rigging is still loose.
Install a solid post in the centre of the doorway between the two load spreading timbers, then retighten the rigging

ishe post will take most of the load from the mast/rigging directly down to the keel rather than via the bulkhead and whilst it will make access to the forecabin difficult,even a fat git like me can still squeeze past.

In a perfect world, the job would be done in harbour (you don't have to be on the hard) using a car jack to crank up the mast beam and an adjustable steel acro prop for the support post, but at sea I reckon its still possible depending on what bits are to hand; I'd think it likely that Matt should have enough bits & pieces of timber for packers for under the floor/mastbeam but you'll need a straight/solid post for the centre of the doorway - as a last resort, perhaps a section of spinnaker pole? then to jack things up/keeep the pole in place, simply hammer in pieces of ply/more timber as wedges, but keep checking that they remain in place and have the hammer/more wedges handy to re-secure.

Good Luck,
Bob.

bobnlesafloat · Dec 29, 2011

Thought about this element of the problem whilst in the shower: If you cut down the spinnaker pole, you've destroyed an expensive and potentially difficult to replace bit of kit; so:

The post needs to be full height (or close to it - you can pack the top & bottom) and about 3" square as a minimum; so, take the front edge trims off both saloon bunks and the starboard bunk's lee-board and nail or screw them all together, then cut to length; this will still be a bit too small, but you can bulk it out with other suitable bits of timber in between; short lengths will do, just butt them tightly together, as the whole thing's going to be loaded in compression only; at a pinch add the heads door (in part or whole) to the laminate, as that'll be easier to replace than a spinnaker pole.

Again, Good Luck!
Bob.

johnadenney · Dec 29, 2011

Hi Bob, I have also bought the Steve Birch reinforcement kit but have
yet to fit it. I am wondering if the beam across the top of the
doorway is supported at either end? I thought originally that the
supports were the door pillars but mine do not go to the floor - in
fact I can get my fingers underneath them at the bottom so I guess
they do not take any load. I assume that there is some sort of fixing
at either end of the curved beam which transfers the load to the hull
- is that correct?
If you took any pics of your installation I would love to see them.

John

Vega1447 · Dec 29, 2011

I have bought and had installed Steve Birch's mast beam reinforcement kit.

See http://jkcray.maths.ul.ie/SailingPhotos/VegaMastSupportBeamReinforced/

for pics and short description.

I think Matt had something similar done before leaving?

John, afaik the mast beam (reinforced or not) transfers the load to the bulkhead which in turn transfers the load to the lower hull. The bulkhead is secured to the hull by small grp flanges - maybe Matt should check too?

Good luck to him.

John V1447 BreakawayJohn Kinsella
Mathematics and Statistics Dept
University of Limerick

Phone 0035361202148
Web jkcray.maths.ul.ie

bobnlesafloat · Dec 29, 2011

Let's not hi-jack Matt's thread:

Sorry, I didn't take any photos, but it's honestly not that difficult; remove the heads door and its top rail first, then just work slowly/methodically and if you're not in a hurry, I'd also recommend leaving the jack in place (just re-tighten the rigging a bit) for a few weeks before installing the s/steel plate; I reckon the depressed deck takes a 'set', so even with the reinforcement plate fitted, it sprung back a fraction leaving a flat/depressed section immediately around the mast foot, which I believe prolonged jacking would've avoided. To jack it up I borrowed an ordinary car scissor jack which just happened to have a locating peg in the top, so I drilled one end of a suitably lengthed 4" x 4" softwood prop to accomodate it, packed out between keel and underside of the floor, wedged in a timber spreader top and bottom, then cranked it up in stages - mast still in place, but rigging loosened off. If available, the best/most stable
solution would've been a small steel acro-prop.

As you've discovered, the door frame's not what takes the load. As noted, there's a grp flange moulded into the inside of the hull, to which the ply bulkhead is fixed with about twenty nuts and bolts, the mast load being taken by the beam, transfered into the bulkhead, then distributed via these bolts/flange to the hull as a whole; I believe one factor in the mast-sag syndrome, in addition to the beam bending, is that over the years these bolts work loose, they then 'work' on the holes through the ply and enlarge them, so allowing the bulkhead to move and the mast beam to sag further. When I did ours, I drilled out the easily accessible ones from 6 to 8mm (as I remember) though it may have been 4mm-6mm and then fitted bigger bolts, so taking up the slack/wear in the holes, I also fitted big washers to either side (on both the original and the new bolts) to get a bigger clamping area/load between bulkhead and grp flange; since fitting the plate
(2006) I've also re-tightened the bolts occassionally, though it'd probably be a better idea to just use nyloc nuts on them.

On the same basis, the steel plate you fit doesn't/shouldn't have the deck bearing on it (that'd give a 'hard-spot' and potentially crack the deck; the load remains on the existing beam with the plate just strengthening the beam (one on either side would probably be structurally sounder, but harder to 'hide' - it'd be pretty ugly exposed on the saloon side). Because of this, I can't see why the thin strip that Steve supplies to sit on top of the beams is necessary and its a pain in the behind to fit; I omitted ours, but if you really want to fit it, I'd suggest: Cut to the correct length and drill a small hole at each end then glue it in place with the the screws keeping it sprung tight to the deckhead whilst the glue cures and MAKE SURE YOU CAN GET THE MAST WIRING PAST IT - I just remembered, that's the primary reason why I omitted it; I felt they'd chafe on the edge of it.

For the plate itself, I drilled the beam it suitable places from the saloon side (either 5 or 6 spots as I recall) dry-fitted the plate with a half-a dozen screws, then marked the plate through these bolt holes; I then removed the plate, drilled it on a bench and then did the full bolted/glued/screwed installation. If you try to drill the s/steel plate in place, it'll either not line-up, or you will oversize the timber beam holes or if you do the plate first, you risk them coming out in an unsuitable spot(s) - keep the jack in place and do not move/adjust it in between marking and re-fixing.

The final, perhaps biggest pain was in refitting the fascia on the forecabin side and after buggering about trying to drill fixing holes through the s/steel plate, I soon gave up and simply glued some timber blocks to the face of the plate and then screwed the fascia/soffit of the cable boxing to these blocks; they've never moved, so it must be OK.

Good Luck, but as I said earlier, it's quite straightforward, certainly an easier process to do than to describe.

Bob.

johnadenney · Dec 29, 2011

Thanks Bob - it all makes sense now! May have a go at it next week.
I assume the chap on the "round the Americas" trip has already done
this? If not - I think I would be a bit worried - to put it mildly!

John

johnadenney · Dec 29, 2011

Sounds nasty! I seem to remember that I read on his web site that he
had regularly adjusted the tension on the rigging enroute. I wonder
if he may have overdone it a bit and maybe been on one tack for a long
time thus causing the symptoms you describe? If the bulkhead has been
lifted on one side I can only surmise that this is caused by the
opposite side dropping. If the bulkhead is attached to the support
beam by the fibreglass flange then it seems logical that the fixings
have come loose. I wonder if the situation is reversed on the
opposite tack? I think a central support pillar in the doorway (as
already suggested) is essential.
What is the weather like in the South Atlantic at this time of year?

I guess popping into a marina somewhere is out of the question on a
non-stop voyage!

wordsort · Dec 29, 2011

I'm thinking that he is having trouble with the bulkhead where the cockpit meets the cabin. He did say aft most and what else could that be? He did say, (as noted) that he tightened the rigging a while back when he was in the tropics. Maybe now that he has reached colder climes it is now over tight. Seems like he would have thought of that though.

My thought was that maybe the main halyard led aft (port side cabin top) is causing the entire port topside to warp upwards. That is turn is causing the starboard side to warp downwards. There is already tremendous compression on the topside from the fore and back stays. Our boat had a similar rig fitted and we quit using it because I thought it put unnatural strain on the boat. It doesn't seem likely to me that the bulkhead is shifting and the hull is strong there so I don't think that something is pushing up on the bulkhead either.

winslowbuoy · Dec 29, 2011

Jody - I suppose one question we have to ask is was the boat modified in any way. Most of our answers seem to be assuming a standard Vega. If part of the interior bulkheads has been cut away to acomodate changes to the bunks etc this could lead to uneven stresses. Perhaps I have not been following events as closely as I should but has it even been established what bulhead we are talking about. If it is the bulhead between the forecabin and the saloon and it hasn't been modified then heavy pounding into the head seas could distort the deck at this point given that the keel stops just forward of this point leaving the fore deck and forepart of the boat to take the full force of slamming into the waves.

Either way the best course to take is to find a sheltered bay to anchor in and have a good look at the problem, checking that all bulkhead to hull fixings are in place and reasonbly tight before tackling Cape Horn.

Mike
________________________________
From: schroath jody@...
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 29 December 2011, 20:51
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Matt Rutherford's bulkhead issue

Thanks for the few suggestions so far, but I am hoping to elicit a few more from the many other Vega experts in the group. (Steve, are you there?)

A little more on his situation: Matt Rutherford is still at sea, and has been since he left Annapolis last June on his nonstop solo circumnavigation of the Americas. He is perhaps a week away from Cape Horn now and really needs all the suggestions we can give him before he takes on that task.

Matt did the mast re-enforcement before he left. In answer to Bob, I don't know whether he has overtightened the rigging along the way, but I've forward that suggestion to Simon so he can forward it to Matt. I don't think Matt has the capability of uploading photos anymore, but I'll check on that.

Meanwhile, if anyone has any thoughts on what would cause the right side of the bulkhead to poke into the deck, dropping the left . . .

Thanks for the help,

Jody

johnadenney · Dec 29, 2011

pic of mastbeam supports
Yahoo! Groups
8704087/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=mtime&start=1&count=20&dir=desc
zoom in to see detail...
.......this link goes to a pic of the how the beam is attached to the
bulkhead... (I think!) I guess these fastenings must be loose if the
bulkhead is trying to escape through the deck. or.... the deck is being
compressed so much on one side it is chafing through? Whichever way you
look at it I would be keen to loosen off the rigging and install a big
bit of timber in the doorway!Hope he is ok... just looked at the
forecast for the horn - seems to get more than its fair share of wind...

Vega1447 · Dec 29, 2011

http://jkcray.maths.ul.ie/SailingPhotos/VegaMastSupportBeamReinforced/

johnadenney · Dec 29, 2011

hmmmmmm..... just reading the previous posts - are we talking about the wrong bulkhead? If its the bulkhead between the cockpit and the cabin then it must be the deck to hull joint? Can anyone confirm which bulkhead is under discussion?

johnadenney · Dec 29, 2011

ok Jody - the weather in that neck of the woods looks a bit lively....
so maybe a downwind sail to a sheltered bay and sling the anchor
overboard whilst repairs are made? Whichever bulkhead..... it is
fairly serious so I guess discretion may be the better part of valor?
How are you managing to communicate with him? Do we have any Vega
owners in that part of the world? Does "non stop" mean no anchoring?
How much stress is on a mast when hove to?.......... just thinking
through the options...

John

Vega1447 · Dec 29, 2011

John (Denny): are you really suggesting that MR should run downwind to a lee shore (Chile) and look for a safe anchorage - on that lee shore?

I doubt if he needs our advice on seamanship but hard to see how that makes sense.

I don't mean to give offence as maybe I misunderstood?

John V1447 BreakawayJohn Kinsella
Mathematics and Statistics Dept
University of Limerick

Phone 0035361202148
Web jkcray.maths.ul.ie

stevebirch2002 · Dec 29, 2011

Hi Jody

I am about but everyone has answered as well as I could. I think I understand the problem and the only thing I could suggest is perhaps the mast step has gone "soft" on one side?

Wouldnt loosen the rigging too much or extra stress will be placed on the rig when in hard weather and/or tacking.

Check the bulkhead flange bolts are tight (there are quite a few). I see from his photos on the website that a mast reinforcement has been already installed. Perhaps the base of the starboard side of the bulkhead has rotted and gone "soft"? If so then add an extra piece of ply over the offending part. It wont be pretty but should do the job.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Steve B

Matt Rutherford&#39;s bulkhead issue

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Matt Rutherford's bulkhead issue