Mast turtling

centerline · Apr 13, 2014

you can fill it with foam. or get a dedicated masthead float... or tie a clorox bottle or fender to the top of the mast until you get over your anxiety... it may not look pretty, but it will do the job... start off sailing conservatively and be ready to let the mainsheet out. once you learn its not much of a fear, then you can leave the bottle at home....

I wouldnt rely on sealing the mast, as if water DID find its way in, you will never lift the mast with it full of water to upright it... a float is the best

its a small boat and even if it turtles you should be able to upright it...

Brian S · Apr 14, 2014

Some people have considered stuffing pool noodles inside the mast. I don't think it would work all that well, what with rivets protruding inside from spreaders and tangs and such… Plus, any weight aloft is heeling weight.

I think Centerline has it right, just tie a jug to the top of the mast. Ugly, but effective. A guy at the club did that with his Flying Scot last summer for our capsize clinic. As long as the Flying Scot mast doesn't go under, a Scot will float on its side, and not take on any water until you right it. The Scot does have a class legal masthead float, which is a pita-like pocket of foam that fits over the head of the sail. The racers call it "the diaper," as in "It's really windy today, I think I put on the diaper."

It's a great idea to get your boat out with a support boat standing by, perhaps in chest deep water, and deliberately capsize it a few times, to see how it will behave. You can practice climbing over the high side right out onto the centerboard. Or see how long she might lay on her side before turtling. I find my 15 footer will lay on her side if there's no wind, but if there's any wind pushing on the hull, she'll turtle. She has a foam filled mast (from the manufacturer) and was supposed to have a mast head float sewn into the head of the main, but I had a new main made without the float.

From my years of learning on a Sunfish, when the boat goes over (I haven't had her go over on me yet, just on purpose when I intended) it's almost instinctive for me to climb over the high side onto the centerboard. Last time that happened with my 14 footer, I went onto the board, got her upright and climbed back into the boat as she righted, and didn't even get my bathing suit wet. Of course, that boat has side decks, and she ships a lot of water, so I got to bail for 45 minutes. A 1 gallon jug used as a bailer can't hold a candle to a bucket when we're dealing with 10" or 12" of water in the bottom!!!

Sunbird22358 · Apr 14, 2014

The widgeon mast is already filled with foam. The best way to avoid turtling is to avoid capsizing in the first place. A float on hte mashead big enough to do any good will be more likely to INCREASE the likelyhood of capsizing (a lot of weight up high where you do NOT want it). Those floats are fine on a catamaran with high intial stability, but will not help on a small boat like the widgeon. I sailed my Widgeon for 7 seasons on windy Buzzards Bay (near Cape Cod) and the only time I ever capsized was the time that I stood up on the seat to adjust one of the spreaders at the mooring (my boat unceremoniously dumped me in hte water and then rolled back upright half-full of water!) I even had a spinnaker and figured out how to use it solo! (crash landed on a beach one time when I didn't take it down in time........oops!)

When sailing a small, centerboard boat like a Widgeon, ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS, keep the mainsheet in hand! That way if you gat hit by a puff off wind, yo ucan instantly realease the sheet and spill the wind out of the sail preventing a capsize. Use the supplied camcleat to hold hte tension, but keep the mainsheet in hand. Doing that I avoided going over any time I was hit by a gust. Yes, I had a few close calls, but never came close to going over, and I don't sail conservatively all the time..... I was usually trying to get the most out of the boat. Some other tips: get a tiller extension so you can steer while sitting on the side deck, amazing how much more stable the boat is when one sits there versus the cockpit seat. If it is windy, sail without the jib, just raise the CB a bit to help balance the change in the center of the sail area.
If a Widgeon does go over, even the ones with the foredeck and molded-in cockpit are going to fill with water and that float on the masthead will make it even harder to right due to the added weight. Again, the best way to recover from a capsize is to never go over in the first place. It can be done! The Widgeon is a lot more stable than you might think as long as you sail her like the small centerboard boat that she is. I employ the same technique on my present DS II and have now sailed 18 seasons without a capsize (half-filled the cockpit once or twice.... but never went over!) Of course on that boat..... the 4hp outboard, VHF radio, my camera, and a lot of other stuff that I would lose if I went over...does provide a strong incentive to NOT capsize.

Brian S · Apr 15, 2014

sneakypete said:
Well with the mast sealed does the boat still turtle?

It is likely that it will. Usually wind blows the boat over - the sails over - presenting the hull broadside to the wind. Then the wind blows the hull over, resulting in a fully capsized boat "the turtle." As my friend, a Hobie 16 racer told me, a Hobie 16 is supposed to have a sealed, foam filled mast, and it's supposed to float capsized with the mast about 45º into the water. But with wind blowing on that trampoline, I sure don't trust it to not capsize! (Yes, we have capsized his Hobie 16, but not turtled… It was in a shallow, mud bottom bay, resulting in the "brown stain of shame" at the top of the main sail...)

The only way to know how your boat will behave it to deliberately knock her over in a safe situation, and see how it is.

I respectfully disagree that a plastic jug tied at the masthead is all that heavy such as to promote excessive heeling. I think that it might not have enough buoyancy to prevent a turtle, but would certainly slow down a turtle scenario possibly enough for you to immediately swim around and get up on the centerboard. Once you have a hand or two on the end of the centerboard, a boat is not likely to continue to turtle all the way. Given this, it is certainly an excellent suggestion to rig a tiller extension/hiking stick so as to allow you to sit up on side decks or gunwale. Getting weight out further from the centerline prevents capsizes (except when the wind heads you 90º and you capsize to windward!) One of the things that annoys me about racing Flying Scots is the class rules prohibit "excessive hiking" during races, so they are not fitted with toe straps. When the wind gets up, and I'm crewing, it sucks to try and hike hard with only the shroud and jib sheet in hand to prevent you going butt over teakettle out of the boat. (It hasn't happened yet, but it makes me anxious that my feet will slip, and there I go.) It's like a security blanket for me, having toe straps fitted to a centerboard boat...

When you do climb onto the centerboard to right a boat, either over the high side, or pulling yourself up from the water, it's not a bad idea to stay close to the hull, and gradually move out as needed, so as not to put undue stress on the board. My fiberglass and foam core board flexes plenty if I put 195 pounds out on the end, and I don't like the looks of it.

Sunbird22358 · Apr 15, 2014

Brian S said:
I respectfully disagree that a plastic jug tied at the masthead is all that heavy such as to promote excessive heeling. quote]

I never said that a plastic jug was that heavy, I was refering to those big, "blimp=shaped" floats that yo usee on some HOBIE Cats. I stil lsay, from WIDGEON expereince that a masthead float is not needed. The boat will not go over if sailed like the CB boat that she is. If one were unlucky (or careless?) enough to capsize, the Widgeon will fill with water and be hard to right without help. A flota on hte mast will probably slow down any tendency to turtle, but is not going to really make righting any easier.
I still say that the best way to recover from a capsize is to never go over in the first place. That was what my Dad always taught me and after 40 years of sailing it has proven correct so far.

Brian S · Apr 15, 2014

I agree with everything Sunbird says here. Those Hobie mast head floats are abominations! I dunno if they are heavier than a Flying Scot diaper.

Here's a good picture of my 15 footer

You can see how the slat seats work with my side decks. I have heeled the boat far enough that water is at the level of the wood seat, and pouring into the boat. It's not a really good sight... on the other hand, she hasn't capsized yet, because you have to sail her like a centerboarder, just like Sunbird says.

But I'm spoiled - I've got bailers in the floor, and she doesn't ship water with the bailers open. So, when I did capsize her on purpose, once righted, I just opened the bailers, and in a few minutes, the water drained right out.

Sunbird22358 said:
I never said that a plastic jug was that heavy, I was refering to those big, "blimp=shaped" floats that yo usee on some HOBIE Cats. I stil lsay, from WIDGEON expereince that a masthead float is not needed. The boat will not go over if sailed like the CB boat that she is. If one were unlucky (or careless?) enough to capsize, the Widgeon will fill with water and be hard to right without help. A flota on hte mast will probably slow down any tendency to turtle, but is not going to really make righting any easier.
I still say that the best way to recover from a capsize is to never go over in the first place. That was what my Dad always taught me and after 40 years of sailing it has proven correct so far.

Sunbird22358 · Apr 25, 2014

Way back in the early 1970's.........

O'DAY offered an interesting option on their small boats (Widgeon, Javelin, O'Day 15, Day Sailer, R19) It was a rubber "balloon" that was housed just below the masthead, it was designed to automatically inflate if the boat ever capsized (kind of like a modern inflatable PFD) This was an "anti-turtling" device and apparently worked OK. Well, "ok" if you didn't mind having an inflated balloon stuck to your masthead after righting the boat, and I don't remember what options there were for re-arming it....... never mind deflating it (pop it??).

I remember seeing it in the brochures, don't know how many O'DAY sold, but they did sell at least one, because my Godfather had one on his JAVELIN and he had great fun telling me about it working (I was around 10 years old at the time). Not sure if he ever did find a way to re-arm it...... and as I recall he was only able to deflate it by popping the balloon!

Anone looking for an idea for a "new" product to make and sell?? <GRIN!>:dance:

Quoted from the 1973 brochure:
Masthead Flotation Device.
Here's a light weight, positive-acting flotation bubble that's actuated by immersion. Even the best-designed boat can "turn turtle" under extreme conditions. In the event of a capsize, a rubber balloon fills with CO2 to help keep mast at water level

Sunbird22358 · Apr 26, 2014

sneakypete said:
Hey Sunbird, where do I find matching white hull paint for my Widgeon. I have a few spots I have to touch up.

Well, gel coat is available from a few companies for fixing scratches, D&R Marine used to sell it but I understand Rudy doesn't carry it anymore. GOOGLE gel coat for more info. WEST Marine used to sell little tubes of gelcoat patch in white, off-white and clear. I have used them and they work OK as long as you get any wax residue out of the scratches.

If you want to use paint, I'd check out the one-part polyurethane paints from Interlux or Petit, however..... getting an exact match may not be easy. If the spots are small, you don't really want to have to buy paint in quart cans anyway....... A local auto parts store might be able to tint an enamel touch-up paint to match..... or maybe you can find an automotive touch-up (they come in little bottles with built-in brushes) that closely matches your boats color. Another idea, if it comes i na close enough color, is the little bottles of appliance touch-up, it is usually an epoxy type paint and should work well (like the auto touch-up it comes with a built-in brush!).

Finally, if the areas that need touch-up are bigger than those little bottles can cover, but not worth buying a quart of poly...... several owners of older sailboats have used (believe it or not) KRYLON spray paint! Again, color matching may be a problem, and the guy I read about was painting the entire transom of his boat, later he did the deck and finally the topsides (hull between waterline and gunwale). It worked for him....... on a 24' boat, but your results may vary.

It still might be worth a call to Rudy for advice?

Brian S · Apr 26, 2014

Sorry, I asked Rudy about gelcoat, and he doesn't carry it anymore. Said it was too expensive and the environmental regs were too onerous.

Mast turtling

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