mast support?

alanc

.
Apr 14, 2011
18
irwin 37 cc newport
Hi all, I just discovered some delamination in my starboard side main bulkhead down low where the berth cusion normally covers it up. Right now, I am more concered with structural integrity rather than aesthetics. I see where there is a fiberglass? or aluminum? channel fitted to the camber of the overhead right below the mast. This is through bolted to a athwartship beam (also contoured to the camber of the overhead) and supported by two stout pieces of wood which form the frames of the companionway leading from the main cabin into the fore peak. None of these segments shows any distortion or buckling of any kind.

I guess I should state here that mine is an older Vega - 1969 vintage. My question is this: Is the beam/channel/door frame the extent of the mast step support, or am I missing something. I would rather just deal with the unsightly area of the bulkhead for now if doesn't unduly affect the integrity of the mast support. If I can, I'd like to forestall the bulkhead replacement until such time as I'm ready for major interior renovation. I can't imagine that there is much load bearing involved in the paneling itself, rather, it seems that it is in the framing that I mentioned above. Any opinions of the more seasoned Vegatarians would be greatly appreciated. AL www.capnscruffy.blogspot.com
 
Oct 31, 2019
230
In my view, the load is borne by the bulkheads - the framing is simply
to prevent deflection. Trevor V2915



________________________________

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of capnscruffy
Sent: January 28, 2011 1:02 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] mast support?





Hi all, I just discovered some delamination in my starboard side main
bulkhead down low where the berth cusion normally covers it up. Right
now, I am more concered with structural integrity rather than
aesthetics. I see where there is a fiberglass? or aluminum? channel
fitted to the camber of the overhead right below the mast. This is
through bolted to a athwartship beam (also contoured to the camber of
the overhead) and supported by two stout pieces of wood which form the
frames of the companionway leading from the main cabin into the fore
peak. None of these segments shows any distortion or buckling of any
kind.

I guess I should state here that mine is an older Vega - 1969 vintage.
My question is this: Is the beam/channel/door frame the extent of the
mast step support, or am I missing something. I would rather just deal
with the unsightly area of the bulkhead for now if doesn't unduly affect
the integrity of the mast support. If I can, I'd like to forestall the
bulkhead replacement until such time as I'm ready for major interior
renovation. I can't imagine that there is much load bearing involved in
the paneling itself, rather, it seems that it is in the framing that I
mentioned above. Any opinions of the more seasoned Vegatarians would be
greatly appreciated. AL www.capnscruffy.blogspot.com
 
Oct 31, 2019
34
thanks Trevor. perhaps that is what the "delamination" is - really buckling? To me it looks more like water damage. It didn't seem to be seriously out of shape. I suppose I need to take a good hard look at it and see if I feel comfortable with it for a bit, or see whether it's a "no sail" item. I'm not too sure if I feel up to tackling the job as set forth in the files page "mast support" with my level of wood working skills - or hire it out/pass it on to a new owner. It does seem pretty straight forward, but I've never done that kind of thing before.
 
Oct 31, 2019
230
Once you start to take it apart, you will see that replacing the
bulkhead is not rocket science. It just takes patience and a certain
ruthlessness. Trevor



________________________________

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of alanc
Sent: January 28, 2011 4:17 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: mast support?





thanks Trevor. perhaps that is what the "delamination" is - really
buckling? To me it looks more like water damage. It didn't seem to be
seriously out of shape. I suppose I need to take a good hard look at it
and see if I feel comfortable with it for a bit, or see whether it's a
"no sail" item. I'm not too sure if I feel up to tackling the job as set
forth in the files page "mast support" with my level of wood working
skills - or hire it out/pass it on to a new owner. It does seem pretty
straight forward, but I've never done that kind of thing before.
 
Oct 31, 2019
34
I gotcha, and a place to lay it out and so forth, it's just taking it apart
intact and replicating the pieces I guess.
 

n6ric

.
Mar 19, 2010
208
It sounds like you have the same issue I had. My bulkhead was rotted out to the point that it needed to be replaced. The mast support beam across the coach roof was in fine shape and really didn't need to be dealt with. However, to replace the bulkhead you have disassemble the beam support structure. And replacing the bulkhead makes it a much bigger project than what you see in the file because you have to disassemble the head and the closet to replace the new bulkhead. I'm replacing all the plywood and molding with new so I have everything already torn apart. While I don't necessarily need a metal support like the one Steve Birch sells, I'm putting one in anyway because I already have everything apart and it would be foolish not to. It's a lot of work, however, it's not all that difficult. I've never before undertaken anything like this, but I'm making good headway. I have the new port side bulkhead installed and it looks beautiful. The hardest part was the 6 coats of varnish on each side. Best of luck on whatever you decide.

Ric
s/v Blue Max
#2692
 
Apr 30, 2000
197
Don't remove the old bulkhead - overlay it with 7mm ply. I did that on the forward sides of both main bulkheads. The plywood was delaminating along the lower edge but was(is) sound above. I removed all loose plies and roughed up the area to be overlaid, made a cardboard template, and epoxied and screwed the pieces. In the head, the plywood just looks like a wainscot with some trim on top, and in the hanging locker, who cares? I put the overlay pieces right over the hull tabbing and ran the throughbolts through both pieces of ply. I don't intend to ever replace these, so there is epoxy there as well. If you were careful, I suppose you could keep the area glue free. The overlaid pieces extend upward from the cabin sole height a foot or more, but not the entire height. Bill Bach V1071
 
Oct 31, 2019
34
I like that idea too- even in the head who cares? It would be fine for me, but come resale time it might be a distraction, although I don't foresee this boat ever becoming "bristol fashion", I'm just not that kind of sailor. I'm more into functionality - as long as it looks reasonably good.
 
Feb 12, 2008
337
If aesthetics are not a concern: rather than just laminating new plywood over the failing plywood, you could always put up some reinforcing mesh and have it shotcreted like they do on ferrocement hulls. It would add strength and some extra ballast as well!
 
Oct 30, 2019
1,459
How, seeing that a sailing yacht is the subject, could aesthetics not be a concern?

Nicholas H. Walsh P.A.
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From: Peter
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 12:12 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: mast support?
SHOTCRETE ???? I shudder with horror ;-)

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'
 
Sep 24, 2008
346
If I looked at a boat and saw shotcrete I would leave immediately - what a
stupid thing to do to a good boat. I'd probably pass on a boat with a
partial plywood overlay as well.
 
Oct 31, 2019
34
I am in total agreement with Doug about seeing it through to a good end, or selling it. Considering that I bought it for $2200, and have another $1580 into it - between the new cushion covers and a new fore stay and halyards - I need to decide whether or not I want to continue. It's really a wee bit small for my plans, I'd much rather be in a Tartan 34 or something similar. (I did a trip last summer on a friends T34 and fell in love) A truism of boating - for me - is that one never recoups the whole investment at resale. I chalk up the loss to the cost of owning and enjoying a boat. The other thing is that every dollar I put into this one takes away from the kitty for the next one. If anyone knows of someone interested in a fair condition, far from derelict, usable Vega here in the Northeast, we should talk. I'd be interested in passing it on for sure. Until then, I will hang on to it until boat selling season, when it will be painted, and try to sell it then for the move up. It has an outboard, but I could take that out of the package, can always use it for the skiff.
 
Feb 12, 2008
337
I just couldn't pass up teasing about the shotcrete, here's why:

Boats Compared to Houses
There seem to be 2 schools on working on or maintaining anything.
The First School is the "I want to put as little money into it and get all my money back out of it when I sell it school".
The 2nd School is "I want to do what it takes to maintain it or make it better even it is for the benefit of the next guy".

From years of professionally remodeling houses, I've had to be able to screen out the First School potential clients (as I hate to do work that is cheap, but going to fail "prematurely" and leave someone down the road with a bigger problem).

Traits of the First Schoolers:
Sometimes they don't have much money or couldn't do things "right" even if they wanted to. Sometimes they wouldn't anyway even if they had the money. These guys would buy an old Catalina, "sail" it with bagged out sails, do nothing to it other than apply duct tape,caulk or baling wire.They will probably sell or sink the boat within a few years.

For others it is all about priorities. As they set their priorities, their house is very low on the list, they would like to do better work, but they got kids to put through school, or love buying new car every year, or have to have 150 pairs of designer shoes in the closet with new fashions coming out next week or maybe they have an old sailboat that needs work. They enjoy having a house, but view it as nice umbrella, useful for keeping the rain off their heads. If they have a boat, it is probably nicer than their house.

Then, there are those First Schoolers that see a house as essentially a box functioning as a human warehouse. It's all about the most square footage per dollar they can get. They want it to look acceptable from the street as they drive in to the garage and close the door. They want the inside to look "nice", but they don't go much beyond that. The actual interior design is not so important, as they don't really focus on much beside their big screen tv anyway. This seems to be the most common American model, and has spawned the sprawl of cookie cutter tract housing and McMansions. Banks and mortgage companies love this model, because there is little concern with quality, it is something that they can evaluate on the strictly mathematical basis of cost per square foot. If they were to buy a boat it would be a MacGregor.

The flippers and landlords are also usually in First category. To them a house is basically a tool to make money. The less money they spend on the tool, the more they can put in their pockets. These guys, if highly successful, wouldn't own a sailboat (the don't have the time to relax), they would own a big powerboat that doesn't often leave the dock and is mainly used as a tax write off. If they did own a sailboat, they would view it as a tool, they would lease the boat to chartering company and closely evaluate the depreciation curve to determine the best time to sell it.

People that are in the Second School seem to be harder and harder to find.
They tend to live in the same house a long time.
They view their house as more than square footage or a big umbrella, it is a space that they spend a lot of their lives in, raise their families and entertain friends. Their memories become part of it and it grows beyond simple enclosed square footage. It becomes a silent, subconscious repository of their daily life experiences.

They are aware of the way the morning light floods across their gardens and onto the breakfast table as they sit and have a cup of coffee. They are aware of how the quality of this light changes as the seasons change and their lives flow by. They maintain their homes and gardens even if their neighbors do not. They enjoy seeing the tree they planted as a twig grow up and bear fruit. When they sell their house, they are happy to see a young couple that reminds them of themselves when they were young buy it, and they hope the couple savors and maintains the home as well as they did.

These people are like little Old Ladies in the tiny houses that flabbergast and frustrate developers when they refuse to be bought out and that now are forced out through imminent domain condemnation of blighted areas. These people are the ones that buy an old boat and take pleasure in the experience of restoring it, keep it for a long time and become a bit attached to their new old friend in the process.
I would guess that a lot of Vega owners with nice boats fit in the Old Lady category. There are probably Pacific Seacraft, Cape Dory, Contessa, Trintella, and some Pearson guys in here as well.

Also in the Second School, are those fans of architecture and art. They see houses as sculptural works and a fully aware of the the dynamics of space light and functionality. These were always my favorite (and rarest) clients. To them remodeling or building a house is creating essentially a livable art form. They often have a "feel" for what they want, and it was satisfying to work with them to consolidate and refine their ideas into something that they love. Unfortunately the opposing emphasis on the lowest cost per square foot, the house should be built in 3 months mentality and the morass of building and zoning codes have made this style of house almost extinct except for those with patience and money.
I would guess these Second Schoolers would own a Sparkman and Stephens, Samuel Morse, Morris or old classic schooner.

So there you have it, the underlying motivation of why I felt compelled to make the wiseass shotcrete comment. As you can probably guess, I like to think of myself as in the Old Lady category.

As an Old Lady, it makes me a little sad to see the photos online of boats for sale that have been neglected or have had questionable work done on them. I really like Vegas, and once they start that slide down from being in good condition, it is a very slippery slope. Vegas in good condition are very cheap, so it doesn't make much sense to spend the time or money to rehabilitate one when you buy one in good condition, spend less money in the long run and sail it the next day. This fact eventually dooms all but a lucky few neglected or kluged Vegas to the bottom of the sea or a trash dump. A sad fate for a once loved boat.

Boats As Batteries
I guess another way to look at a boats and other things is to compare them to rechargeable batteries. You can either buy the battery and charger and then pay a bit here and there to recharge it as you use it and use it for long time or you can buy the rechargeable battery without a charger, use it up and then throw it away. The distilled version: Boat owners are either Battery Chargers or Battery Depleters.

I could expound on this but unfortunately, that would get me going on my "Cheap imported goods from countries with horrible working and environmental conditions have created a everything is disposable attitude and a view that actually working and producing or repairing tangible goods is a second rate despicable occupation only worthy of low pay" rant which would lead to my "entitlements are going to ruin the country" rant or my "I should be able to go through life with a buck over my head and still be safe because someone else should be responsible for my safety despite of what I do and I should be able to sue someone if something bad happens to me while I run around with a bucket on my head- is is ruining the country" rant.

Basically-you get the idea (no-the idea is not that I should be on medication, although I'm sure pharmaceutical companies would disagree), but this is supposed to be an Albin Vega forum and not a Tim's Wild Rants forum so I will leave it at that.
One of the nice things a bout the Vega group is that everyone gets along
whether their an Old Lady a future MacGregor owner or just a Battery Depleter. But I do have to
admit, it is hard for an Old Lady to behave at times....-Tim
 
Oct 30, 2019
1,459
Tim,
I, for one, enjoyed your rant. One correction though: "neglect" is no longer a politically correct term .... it's been replaced by "deferred maintenance", and is no longer corrected by "total re$toration", but with "TLC" ;-)

Having designed, built, and lived in our house for over 30 years I guess that puts us in the "Little Old Lady" category too! And when it comes to workmanship, few remember how long it took, but all see how well it was done.

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'