I've noticed a disturbing trend down in south florida. Marina's are going private/condo one after another. Even some of the public marina's are selling out! I am a fortunate minority, I live on the water and have a fleet of all types of boats in my marina/yard with unbelievable sailing literally ten minutes from my dock. It helps to have been born a local and have lived here before it was fashionable, back when it was a mosquito infested swamp (ahhhh, the good old days....). I'm wondering if other parts of the country are experiencing this same trend, I sure hope not. If so than sailing, and boating in general, will soon become an activity that only the truly rich can enjoy, again. Sad days are a coming to Florida if we don't nip the developers and politicians right now.
- Status
OK, But..
what's the downside of a private marina going to shared ownership? I can think of a downside to the owners if they don't consider the cost and time of dock replacements. But, some will be owned by the tennant and others rented anyway, no? Privatizing a municipal marina may be more problematical if the muni had been offering sub-market rates which is sometimes the case in SoCal. There are condo-slips in NoCal I know of, and some I think in Santa Barbara, but none I am aware of in SoCal. The problem here is that most of the infrustructure was built between 1955 and 1970, and most have run past their expected service life. Rick D.
what's the downside of a private marina going to shared ownership? I can think of a downside to the owners if they don't consider the cost and time of dock replacements. But, some will be owned by the tennant and others rented anyway, no? Privatizing a municipal marina may be more problematical if the muni had been offering sub-market rates which is sometimes the case in SoCal. There are condo-slips in NoCal I know of, and some I think in Santa Barbara, but none I am aware of in SoCal. The problem here is that most of the infrustructure was built between 1955 and 1970, and most have run past their expected service life. Rick D.
And there are more boats
but not many more slips than when most of the stuff in So. Cal was built. There was another post somewhere discussing rates and I thought we paid a lot here. From what I saw there, boatownership in NY and New England already requires some pretty deep pockets.
but not many more slips than when most of the stuff in So. Cal was built. There was another post somewhere discussing rates and I thought we paid a lot here. From what I saw there, boatownership in NY and New England already requires some pretty deep pockets.
another thought
While we're on this topic. How can anyone "sell" a slip that is over state owned land (the bay bottoms are actually owned by the state). I'm probably being too old fashioned but in Florida, you can't claim control of a piece of bay bottom until you have the blessings from the State DEP, Army COE, USCG in addition to the local city and county governments. With that being said, how could I sell you a slip when the only thing I paid for was the pilings and dock. I needed a permit from all the above agencies to place the pilings in their mud. Thus far the only thing I actually own is the pilings, NOT the land they sit in. Geeze, I hope this comes out the same way it sounds in my head..... Just some more marine law to chew on. I think I'll wash it down with tall glass of rum.
While we're on this topic. How can anyone "sell" a slip that is over state owned land (the bay bottoms are actually owned by the state). I'm probably being too old fashioned but in Florida, you can't claim control of a piece of bay bottom until you have the blessings from the State DEP, Army COE, USCG in addition to the local city and county governments. With that being said, how could I sell you a slip when the only thing I paid for was the pilings and dock. I needed a permit from all the above agencies to place the pilings in their mud. Thus far the only thing I actually own is the pilings, NOT the land they sit in. Geeze, I hope this comes out the same way it sounds in my head..... Just some more marine law to chew on. I think I'll wash it down with tall glass of rum.
Hope You Enjoyed The Rum, Steven
You are correct, of course. You own your piece of the water lease and the piece of the improvements. For example, in Avalon where a 50' mooring is worth $700,000 you own the lease rights. Period. And, they charge you for maintenance and you don't get any of the rental revenue. Hope this makes sense after the rum. Rick D.
You are correct, of course. You own your piece of the water lease and the piece of the improvements. For example, in Avalon where a 50' mooring is worth $700,000 you own the lease rights. Period. And, they charge you for maintenance and you don't get any of the rental revenue. Hope this makes sense after the rum. Rick D.
Confused
Rick, I'm confused. How can you own the "lease rights" and not be entitled to the lease income? Why would it be worth 700K? Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Rick, I'm confused. How can you own the "lease rights" and not be entitled to the lease income? Why would it be worth 700K? Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Your Rights
...extend to your ability to use your mooring (if you reserve it in advance) and to transfer it with the permission of the harbormaster (for a price to you by the new lessee). They can also cancel your lease for cause, of course. The lease specifies who gets the rental revenue. To simplify, you get your Avalon parking space when you buy someone's lease. They rent it when you are not there and retain the revenue per your agreement with them. That's what's worth $700k or whatever. Remember, these things more often appreciate than not, so it isn't as silly as it sounds. Where I have my mooring, they used to do the same thing but went to a non-transferable lease (much to the dismay of those who held them).
...extend to your ability to use your mooring (if you reserve it in advance) and to transfer it with the permission of the harbormaster (for a price to you by the new lessee). They can also cancel your lease for cause, of course. The lease specifies who gets the rental revenue. To simplify, you get your Avalon parking space when you buy someone's lease. They rent it when you are not there and retain the revenue per your agreement with them. That's what's worth $700k or whatever. Remember, these things more often appreciate than not, so it isn't as silly as it sounds. Where I have my mooring, they used to do the same thing but went to a non-transferable lease (much to the dismay of those who held them).
Still Confused
Rick, I may have to share a beer with you sometime when I'm in Southern California to better understand. I'm a real estate guy and former developer, and I still don't get it. It sounds like someone is paying 700K for a place to park with an advance reservation, and that right might even be revokable with cause (how is that for investment security). For 700K you could buy a pretty nice airplane and pay for landing fees and tie down at the Catalina airport. I understand appreciation as a factor in ownership including leased product. However, without an income stream, I can't imagine how the investment would pencil. Equity gain through appreciation has been pretty keen in most real estate over the years, but investment properties are still analized and valued based on capitalization rates that are tied to income. I've spent a lot of time on Catalina over the last 30 years. First flying there with some regularity, then getting a residents perspective with a long time friend who lived there for a number of years, through my last trip this past October when I sailed there from San Francisco on the way to Ensenada. Catalina and Avalon are nice, but 700K to park there? I truly do not get it. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Rick, I may have to share a beer with you sometime when I'm in Southern California to better understand. I'm a real estate guy and former developer, and I still don't get it. It sounds like someone is paying 700K for a place to park with an advance reservation, and that right might even be revokable with cause (how is that for investment security). For 700K you could buy a pretty nice airplane and pay for landing fees and tie down at the Catalina airport. I understand appreciation as a factor in ownership including leased product. However, without an income stream, I can't imagine how the investment would pencil. Equity gain through appreciation has been pretty keen in most real estate over the years, but investment properties are still analized and valued based on capitalization rates that are tied to income. I've spent a lot of time on Catalina over the last 30 years. First flying there with some regularity, then getting a residents perspective with a long time friend who lived there for a number of years, through my last trip this past October when I sailed there from San Francisco on the way to Ensenada. Catalina and Avalon are nice, but 700K to park there? I truly do not get it. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
1st Hand info
Let me explain the problem with marinas slips going condo. The marina rented slips to the boatowners on a first come/first served basis. The pricing was determined by supply and demand. The condo developers buy the marina, build condos near the old marina and sell condos with or without slips. As it is nearly impossible to get any new slip space approved by Florida/EPA/Manitee Huggers/etc. the condo developers appear to have the only new slips available. Condos with slips go at incredible prices. The one in Punta Gorda Isles I paid $125k for in 1999 sold for $249k two months ago. That is $200/sq.ft. but since I had a deeded sailboat slip the price seemed to be justified. Now for the problem. Condos have rules. They have boards of directors. They also have the potential for having non-boating majorities. One of the owners in my old condo wanted to build a small power lift in his slip to keep the barnicles off of his 18 ft. powerboat. A non-boating condo owner protested to the condo board that the lift would block his view of the canal and represented "visual pollution". Both sides got lawyers. It got really nasty. Almost everyone at the condo took one side or the other. At the time, I was the president of the condo board and felt very much in the crossfire. I was personally threatened by lawsuits from both sides of the issue. That didn't represent the vision I had when I retired early and moved to sunny Florida. I resigned my board position and immediately bought a house and moved away from the mess. Just so you will understand, ultimately, the non-boating side won and now most of the 19 sailboat accesible slips at that condo are empty. Because of condo rules, they cannot be rented out to non-condo residents. Essentialy, those slip spaces will never be used for docking of sailboats. If the slips belonged to a marina they would be available for rent. My first-hand example is just one of many. Privatization of once-public slip spaces is rampant, and it is resulting in a major squeeze on boat owners to get or keep a place to dock their boat.
Let me explain the problem with marinas slips going condo. The marina rented slips to the boatowners on a first come/first served basis. The pricing was determined by supply and demand. The condo developers buy the marina, build condos near the old marina and sell condos with or without slips. As it is nearly impossible to get any new slip space approved by Florida/EPA/Manitee Huggers/etc. the condo developers appear to have the only new slips available. Condos with slips go at incredible prices. The one in Punta Gorda Isles I paid $125k for in 1999 sold for $249k two months ago. That is $200/sq.ft. but since I had a deeded sailboat slip the price seemed to be justified. Now for the problem. Condos have rules. They have boards of directors. They also have the potential for having non-boating majorities. One of the owners in my old condo wanted to build a small power lift in his slip to keep the barnicles off of his 18 ft. powerboat. A non-boating condo owner protested to the condo board that the lift would block his view of the canal and represented "visual pollution". Both sides got lawyers. It got really nasty. Almost everyone at the condo took one side or the other. At the time, I was the president of the condo board and felt very much in the crossfire. I was personally threatened by lawsuits from both sides of the issue. That didn't represent the vision I had when I retired early and moved to sunny Florida. I resigned my board position and immediately bought a house and moved away from the mess. Just so you will understand, ultimately, the non-boating side won and now most of the 19 sailboat accesible slips at that condo are empty. Because of condo rules, they cannot be rented out to non-condo residents. Essentialy, those slip spaces will never be used for docking of sailboats. If the slips belonged to a marina they would be available for rent. My first-hand example is just one of many. Privatization of once-public slip spaces is rampant, and it is resulting in a major squeeze on boat owners to get or keep a place to dock their boat.
That's The Trend
I was in Naples, FL in January and had a conversation with one of the harbormasters. He indicated that because of the demand for waterfront property, many of the marinas are selling out to developers because of the huge price they are willing to pay for waterfront property. Marinas come with land and docks and they are converted to private docks when the condos are built. With all the baby boomers coming to retirement, the trend expects to continue down there.
I was in Naples, FL in January and had a conversation with one of the harbormasters. He indicated that because of the demand for waterfront property, many of the marinas are selling out to developers because of the huge price they are willing to pay for waterfront property. Marinas come with land and docks and they are converted to private docks when the condos are built. With all the baby boomers coming to retirement, the trend expects to continue down there.
Thanks, Paul and Larry. And Dan...
...the beer is on me, but you do get it. Actually, you are a sub-lessee, but that's a nit. Anyhow, value is in the eyes of the owner, huh? Paul and Larry, that's a different twist than I'd imagined and I can see the issues. However, Larry, when I see the mess some of my neighbors make of their homes, I do long again for an association... Rick D. PS: Dan, what's an 'ex'-developer?
...the beer is on me, but you do get it. Actually, you are a sub-lessee, but that's a nit. Anyhow, value is in the eyes of the owner, huh? Paul and Larry, that's a different twist than I'd imagined and I can see the issues. However, Larry, when I see the mess some of my neighbors make of their homes, I do long again for an association... Rick D. PS: Dan, what's an 'ex'-developer?
Yep Rick, we bought and built because of an
association. Trashing ones place is against the rules. Simple rules, like no factory homes or cars that don't run, parked outside. And all the sites are 5 acres or more, with trees so we don't see other houses anyway. Rules are good.
association. Trashing ones place is against the rules. Simple rules, like no factory homes or cars that don't run, parked outside. And all the sites are 5 acres or more, with trees so we don't see other houses anyway. Rules are good.
Interesting
Rick, I may hold you to that beer. First, an ex-developer means I try as hard as I can not to do that anymore. I used to buy land, get entitlements and build the real estate. Have not done that now for about eight years. Now I just do the real estate part and it provides me with less headaches and more time to sail. Mostly buying and selling homes for clients but I have developer and investor clients that work with developable commercial properties or investment residential properties. Second, you are right. The value of anything is based on what a willing buyer and seller will agree on. I guess its a good thing I'm not selling the leases on the moorings. It is hard to sell something you don't think is worth the asking price. Thanks for the clarifications. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Rick, I may hold you to that beer. First, an ex-developer means I try as hard as I can not to do that anymore. I used to buy land, get entitlements and build the real estate. Have not done that now for about eight years. Now I just do the real estate part and it provides me with less headaches and more time to sail. Mostly buying and selling homes for clients but I have developer and investor clients that work with developable commercial properties or investment residential properties. Second, you are right. The value of anything is based on what a willing buyer and seller will agree on. I guess its a good thing I'm not selling the leases on the moorings. It is hard to sell something you don't think is worth the asking price. Thanks for the clarifications. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Condo Ownership Can Be Good Deal
Condo slip ownership can be a good deal depending on the situation. We own two condo slips in different marinas and it's worked out really well. One marina is a Yacht Club and the other is just a condo marina (no condo residences). The only people who can be a member of the condominium are the individual slip owners so there can never be dilution of ownership. The reasons we opted for ownership in lieu of renting is: 1. The out-of-pocket ownership cost is around 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of renting based on a 44-ft slip. Ownership costs include lease-hold taxes, county property tax, and marina management costs. 2. The savings due to the lower cost over a public marina yields a rate of return which is better than bank or CD rates. 3. The value on our slip has actually appreciated, as has all waterfront property, so that's another plus and I anticipate this to continue. A slip actually classifies as "deep water moorage". 4. The condo association is less likely to come up with stupid rules compared to a public marina. 5. The Yacht Club has a club house available for weddings, receptions, family reunions, and the like, and the workshop is great for working on a boat project. A public marina generally doesn't have these facilities, especially the workshop for liability reasons. 6. Waterfront property with deepwater moorage is really expensive and one has to pay a heck of a lot in taxes. Every condo association is going to be different so check the rules. If non-slip owners can be members, such as in a case mentioned on a previous posting, I would shy away from buying there. The ownership should restrict membership to slip-owners only so there are members with like-minded interests. If the condo marina is heavily populated by powerboats or is in an area with long distance commuters I would think twice about ownership at this point in time. If fuel prices skyrocket the powerboaters might want to get out of boating and the long distance commuter will have less discretionary income. If a person plans to live in the same area for a long time the condo slip ownership can really make sense. Poulsbo Yacht Club link: http://www.poulsboyc.org/ P.S. If anyone is interested in info about PYC you can give me a call.
Condo slip ownership can be a good deal depending on the situation. We own two condo slips in different marinas and it's worked out really well. One marina is a Yacht Club and the other is just a condo marina (no condo residences). The only people who can be a member of the condominium are the individual slip owners so there can never be dilution of ownership. The reasons we opted for ownership in lieu of renting is: 1. The out-of-pocket ownership cost is around 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of renting based on a 44-ft slip. Ownership costs include lease-hold taxes, county property tax, and marina management costs. 2. The savings due to the lower cost over a public marina yields a rate of return which is better than bank or CD rates. 3. The value on our slip has actually appreciated, as has all waterfront property, so that's another plus and I anticipate this to continue. A slip actually classifies as "deep water moorage". 4. The condo association is less likely to come up with stupid rules compared to a public marina. 5. The Yacht Club has a club house available for weddings, receptions, family reunions, and the like, and the workshop is great for working on a boat project. A public marina generally doesn't have these facilities, especially the workshop for liability reasons. 6. Waterfront property with deepwater moorage is really expensive and one has to pay a heck of a lot in taxes. Every condo association is going to be different so check the rules. If non-slip owners can be members, such as in a case mentioned on a previous posting, I would shy away from buying there. The ownership should restrict membership to slip-owners only so there are members with like-minded interests. If the condo marina is heavily populated by powerboats or is in an area with long distance commuters I would think twice about ownership at this point in time. If fuel prices skyrocket the powerboaters might want to get out of boating and the long distance commuter will have less discretionary income. If a person plans to live in the same area for a long time the condo slip ownership can really make sense. Poulsbo Yacht Club link: http://www.poulsboyc.org/ P.S. If anyone is interested in info about PYC you can give me a call.
ex developer
An ex developer is a friend of any native Florida Cracker. This state was ruined by yankee developers coming down here and destroying everything they touched, especially the waters. Our boating, fishing and overall life style has been spoiled by you and all your developer friends. Now we can't even afford to use our 18' skiffs any more due to, you guessed it, developers selling what they don't even own! Sorry to ramble on about what seems to be a non-sailing issue but development in Florida IS a sailing issue. In a few short years the sport of sailing won't exist as it does today unless you have serious amounts of yankee developer cash. Us poor locals will just be chased further inland after selling our water front fishing camps to you for a 1000% profit. Guess we are similar to the poor farmers up north loosing their farms except we are making some cash on the deal. I gotta say, I hope the sea level rises a half foot in the next 30 years, that will make all the yankee developments worthless..... Now that would be sweet justice for us Crackers who are being chased out.
An ex developer is a friend of any native Florida Cracker. This state was ruined by yankee developers coming down here and destroying everything they touched, especially the waters. Our boating, fishing and overall life style has been spoiled by you and all your developer friends. Now we can't even afford to use our 18' skiffs any more due to, you guessed it, developers selling what they don't even own! Sorry to ramble on about what seems to be a non-sailing issue but development in Florida IS a sailing issue. In a few short years the sport of sailing won't exist as it does today unless you have serious amounts of yankee developer cash. Us poor locals will just be chased further inland after selling our water front fishing camps to you for a 1000% profit. Guess we are similar to the poor farmers up north loosing their farms except we are making some cash on the deal. I gotta say, I hope the sea level rises a half foot in the next 30 years, that will make all the yankee developments worthless..... Now that would be sweet justice for us Crackers who are being chased out.
Rates & Data
It would be intriguing to compare rates around the country, using for example an annual rate for a 35-foot slip. Mine is $2,700 off the York River, Chesapeake Bay, where we can sail ten months of the year. Other rates?
It would be intriguing to compare rates around the country, using for example an annual rate for a 35-foot slip. Mine is $2,700 off the York River, Chesapeake Bay, where we can sail ten months of the year. Other rates?
Developers
Paul, I don't know what burr got up your butt today but you just are not taking a realistic look at the world. The developers out there are building properties because there is a demand for the same. Twinkies aren't particularly good for you, but not too many people think the people that make them wear a black hat. I developed residential properties in a community I was born in and lived in all my life. Working people live in those homes. I'm not sure I understand where you think the place you live in comes from. You live in a warm place, and that is where much of the population growth has been headed for a long time. Like it or not. If the Florida Crackers had not sold the land, it would not be developed. And, if you think it is bad in Florida, come out to my neck of the woods. A 2 bedroom, 950 sf, 1941 built home on a small lot is selling above 350K. You want one of those nice 1600 sf three year old homes I have seen in Florida for under 180K you need to think north of 550K out here. See, in California, particularly the coastal areas, land is in short supply and in many communities (mine included) we local Crackers have instituted growth controls to protect much of the remaining agricultural or open space land (which I do think is a good idea). When you guys get around to that make sure you are a homeowner first, because your opportunities afterwards get pretty expensive. I had a developer friend once who told me that when asked what he did for a living, he told them he was a child molester. He said that after they found out he was really a developer they were relieved and more friendly than if he had told them the truth. I'm pretty sure he made that story up, but it illustrates the point. My advice is that if you think developers are a bad lot, quit buying their homes and build your own or live in a tent. Sorry for the rant, but I did too much good in my community (including building over 36 units of affordable for-sale housing at cost and more boards or commissions than most people know about) to put up with that kind of stupidity. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Paul, I don't know what burr got up your butt today but you just are not taking a realistic look at the world. The developers out there are building properties because there is a demand for the same. Twinkies aren't particularly good for you, but not too many people think the people that make them wear a black hat. I developed residential properties in a community I was born in and lived in all my life. Working people live in those homes. I'm not sure I understand where you think the place you live in comes from. You live in a warm place, and that is where much of the population growth has been headed for a long time. Like it or not. If the Florida Crackers had not sold the land, it would not be developed. And, if you think it is bad in Florida, come out to my neck of the woods. A 2 bedroom, 950 sf, 1941 built home on a small lot is selling above 350K. You want one of those nice 1600 sf three year old homes I have seen in Florida for under 180K you need to think north of 550K out here. See, in California, particularly the coastal areas, land is in short supply and in many communities (mine included) we local Crackers have instituted growth controls to protect much of the remaining agricultural or open space land (which I do think is a good idea). When you guys get around to that make sure you are a homeowner first, because your opportunities afterwards get pretty expensive. I had a developer friend once who told me that when asked what he did for a living, he told them he was a child molester. He said that after they found out he was really a developer they were relieved and more friendly than if he had told them the truth. I'm pretty sure he made that story up, but it illustrates the point. My advice is that if you think developers are a bad lot, quit buying their homes and build your own or live in a tent. Sorry for the rant, but I did too much good in my community (including building over 36 units of affordable for-sale housing at cost and more boards or commissions than most people know about) to put up with that kind of stupidity. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
sorry this Dan agrees with Paul
I have lived on the Redneck Rivera for over 30 yrs. even built a few apts and townhouses in years gone by. when I developed a piece of property I tried to add something not strip something away. the boys down here now just scrape it off and pave it over. I live on Santa Rosa Island. the property across the street from me is Gulf front selling for 750k for a lot 50X75. a group bought the connecting lots 2 yrs ago and every couple months we have to make a trip to the county commissioners meeting to fight off a zoning change. the lots are zone R1 single family, they want it changed to build a high rise condo. they dont live here (group is from Atlanta) and they dont give a damn about anything but a fast buck. sorry, here in FLA Paul's right. and as far as the 1600 sf tract houses for 140-180k, they aint worth 35k IMHO!
I have lived on the Redneck Rivera for over 30 yrs. even built a few apts and townhouses in years gone by. when I developed a piece of property I tried to add something not strip something away. the boys down here now just scrape it off and pave it over. I live on Santa Rosa Island. the property across the street from me is Gulf front selling for 750k for a lot 50X75. a group bought the connecting lots 2 yrs ago and every couple months we have to make a trip to the county commissioners meeting to fight off a zoning change. the lots are zone R1 single family, they want it changed to build a high rise condo. they dont live here (group is from Atlanta) and they dont give a damn about anything but a fast buck. sorry, here in FLA Paul's right. and as far as the 1600 sf tract houses for 140-180k, they aint worth 35k IMHO!
Don't confuse Paul with paul
Please guys, don't confuse me (see my name above) with the other paul (no last name), who is posting on this thread. I only made the one post about speaking to one of the Naples, FL harbormasters.
Please guys, don't confuse me (see my name above) with the other paul (no last name), who is posting on this thread. I only made the one post about speaking to one of the Naples, FL harbormasters.
- Status