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Managing the Bow.

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KandD

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Jan 19, 2009
193
Hunter 40 Corpus Christi
Today i tried to take out my Hunter 40 and ran into some engine problems. I dropped the anchor while fixing it (I was barely out of the marina and drifting towards the dock, 20 mph winds). I was able to lay the anchor quickly, but retrieving nearly landed us on the jetty. I had two issues:

1) we have a hank-on 130% that lives in a cover on deck. The cover hanks onto the life-lines to keep it off the deck. The problem is that I can't readily get to the bow, access the anchor locker, or bow cleats without battling the bulk of the sail.

2) 40' of 3/8" chain with a 40lb danforth is hard to haul up by hand... especially if it's covered by clay/mud.

Those with hank-on sails, how do you avoid these issues?

Those with rolling furlers, tell me about them. I'm starting to research them, I'm a little reluctant because if the foresail needs to come down, I don't want anything fouling up... but I'm jealous of watching everyone just sail into the marina, rolling it so easily. I know absolutely nothing about them. There is some info for smaller boats, but not much for larger boats (does much change??) in the archives.

Any words of advise on windlasses?
 
Oct 3, 2008
308
Beneteau 393 Chesapeake Bay
I have a Beneteau, about the same LOA as your Hunter, and I have both a furling jib and an electric windlass. I only cruise and no longer do any racing. Both the furler and windlass make life much easier.

Furling jibs can go on just about any size boat. All different makes, but most work similarly. You may or may not need to replace the forstay as part of the changeover. About your sail...I don't know. You may be able to have it modified, or you may need to replace it. Furling foresails have a bolt-rope or similar in the luff and this rides in a slot on the furling foil which is around your forestay. You should consult a rigger for pricing, recommendations, etc.

Using the furling jib is easy. It is all done from the cockpit. You unfurl it when you want to use it and roll it back up when done. Also, you can reef it as much or as little as you want by rolling it up part way.

The windlass is necessary. I too have 40+ feet ft of chain and a 44 pound Delta. No way I would want to do this manually. I am fairly certain you can retrofit one to your boat.
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,196
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
i have a formosa 41---i use 5/16 chain because 3/8 is tooo heavy--lol---nd 45/16 i s perfect for this size boat-----i have a furlling jib and a windlass --electric----would prefer a manual one--because electric ones fail ....manual doesnt break down as easily and is actually an easy machine to use......i like the simpson lawrence sea witch windlass--
(is there any way to raise your sail bag of foresail off the deck and mount on the pulpit and lifelines or some other place than under foot??)
i have harken and i have cdi roller jibs---harken on my ericson 35 and cdi on my f 41.....cdi is on the boat i sail in louseyanny, also----is a 37 seidelmann sloop----the roller furling can be a lifesaver as well as a killer beast---depends on if it wants to furl when you want to shorten sail...LOL--they donot always want to do what you want them to do ---but it beats dickens out of running forward in a storm to shorten sail or hank on a new one ....

your sailmaker is able to make your foresail convert to furler---even place a nice sunbrella sunscreen on the edge--LOL

when i was planning for cruising under sail i had originally decided that roller furling wasnt an option----oops--had to rethink that one--is very good option...lol.....found that out in storms in gulf of mexico--LOL...is better to have a roller furling foresail than havbe to swim home..lol or be dragged by a boat whilst on a tether lol......profurl is also good--research well and go for what is best for your needs--there are many brands of furlers out there------goood luck!! fair winds and smooth sailing
 
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higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,472
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
I sailed for many years hanking on head sails, but I now consider the furler to be a necessary piece of equipment. They are wonderful. It is true that there is nothing quicker that just dropping a hanked on jib, but in the event you are in an emergency you can always throw off the sheet and let the sail rattle around until the emergency is dealt with. It's noisy, a little hard on the jib, but effective.

The other downside of the furler is that a partially furled jib will not give you efficient sail shape for going upwind.

Beyond that, they make taking your boat out so much less trouble. No more going forward to douse the jib - a real safety issue in heavy seas where you have to head into the wind and waves to get the jib to fall on deck. With a furler, you do not have to be headed into the wind to furl as easing the sheet takes enough pressure off the sail to furl.

No folding the jib and bagging it. Furl and be done.
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
I am pretty sure that boat originally had a furler. It was probably modified for racing. Maybe a previous owner has it somewhere. It will be a major expense to add a furler and modify the sail.

Is your bag the type that leaves the hanks attached? Then you could do as previously mentioned. Wrap the halyard around the sail bag and lift the whole thing.

I anchored for years without a windlass. Muddy chain is the worst problem. I never had a problem getting the CQR on the rollers. BUT I always had a crewmate who knew how to drive. Having someone drive you over the anchor while you retrieve is key. Then over the anchor to release it while you pull straight up. I only anchored single-handed in the most benign conditions. Here is a link to the Mods above: http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/in...mid=267&cat_id=42&aid=7582&page=article&mn=40 .
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
Retrieval aid

In the meantime you can try using a rope run to a winch to help pull up the chain in a pinch. Attach a strong hook you can slip into a link. The rope doesn't have to be too long, as you can move the hook as the chain comes in. A manual windlass might be a cheaper option.

Did you have any crew aboard or were you solo? While you were retrieving was the engine running operational?
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,702
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
Furling Jib

I would go for the furling jib first and wait on the windless until first do the furling first and wait on the windlass.
Ask around on prices to covert the sail you havel to furling on here and call many riggers and get prices,but ask more on this forum for anyone that has done the change over and ask them for help how or who did it.
You will love furling I know I do and only yesterday while out sailing and while returning to the marina I had about four other sailboats following me in they all turn into the wind while I kept sailing into the channel I furled in the jib than put the motor into gear and than furled in my main furling and never missed a beat into my marina,for you furling the jib will be so much better than going to bow.Nick
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,196
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
I would go for the furling jib first and wait on the windless until first do the furling first and wait on the windlass.
Ask around on prices to covert the sail you havel to furling on here and call many riggers and get prices,but ask more on this forum for anyone that has done the change over and ask them for help how or who did it.
You will love furling I know I do and only yesterday while out sailing and while returning to the marina I had about four other sailboats following me in they all turn into the wind while I kept sailing into the channel I furled in the jib than put the motor into gear and than furled in my main furling and never missed a beat into my marina,for you furling the jib will be so much better than going to bow.Nick
i was always told "never pay retail"....checkout the used boating goods places you can find---lol --a used simpson lawrence should be cheep and not affect your electricity usage, as is manual....but the furler will allow you to do much more without going forward.....
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Why

To answer at least on of your problems. Why would you think that you are going to have to remove the jib. In five years, have never felt the need to remove my jib, except when the forestay broke couple years ago. Believe me, when the years start mounting up, and your body doesn't like going up on the bow much, a roller furler will become one of your best friends.
 
Sep 25, 2008
544
Bristol 43.3 Perth Amboy
Options

On my dad's Bristol 40, we used to leave the jib hanked to the forestay and stuff it into the bag, clew first. We would then flip it forward, resting on the bow pulpit, to get access to the anchor roller and bow cleat. It worked very well that way.

That said, I love roller furlers. Harken and Selden are well recommended by Practical-Sailor. I have had 2 Schaeffer furlers on 2 different boats. They are bullet proof and almost as fool proof as anything can be on a boat. Never had a failure. My current boat has a 22 yr old Harken roller furler. As part of a rigging overhaul, it was removed this winter and is in perfect shape. If installed properly with the right halyard angle and a fair lead for the furling line, they work flawlessly.

In terms of windlasses, buy one bigger than is recommended. I have an Ideal windlass that seems to be very heavy duty, can be easily serviced and the motor rebuilt if needed.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
I have to go along with Ed on this one. I too have anchored for years without a problem. Retrieving an anchor is a skill that once mastered makes a windlass redundant. Moving the boat forward toward the anchor releases the rode from tension and easily alows you to pull the slack in. When the rode goes vertical, snub it and wait, it will dislodge the anchor by itself without any need for the backbreaking pull that I see many skippers go through.
Clearing the foredeck for quick easy access to your anchor is a necessity no matter how you do it. Hanked on sails that remain in place should not preclude your access.
 

zds

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Oct 28, 2008
110
Hunter 34 -
Roller furlers are essential cruising gear. Fast, easy, great for reefing, and convenient.

Alan and Ed are right on, slow and steady is the way to go.

Though, there's no real harm in starting to motor off with the anchor hanging from the bow (i.e., get it free and up a bit, but don't totally stow until you're not about to collide with something). Just make sure the rode is well cleated and you don't have so much out that you could foul the prop.
 

KandD

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Jan 19, 2009
193
Hunter 40 Corpus Christi
Thanks for the tips. I was in about 10' of water, and it was just a friend who was new to boats and myself aboard. I like the rope and hook idea, part of the fun was getting a grip on the chain as it was covered in a clay-mud-silty mix. I may keep a short length of rope with a hook on it so I can cleat off the chain if needed.
I've been looking for furling units, and CDI is most appealing (price) but the FF9 is for 53' and our headstay measures 56 and change. We have all new standing rigging at a heafty price, so I don't want to have to replace my forestay. Although, it's all mechanical fittings so I think if I needed to trim it, it would be doable.
 

BobM

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Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
Take a look at the Alado as well. The price point is about the same as a CDI and the DIY install looks easy and you just run it up your new forestay from the deck. Practical Sailor just did an article and seems to favor it for its function and reasonable cost compared to other units without a head swivel.

http://www.aladous.com/PSLFurlersHeadsailALADOWeb4c.pdf
 
Sep 15, 2009
6,241
S2 9.2a Fairhope Al
Take a look at the Alado as well. The price point is about the same as a CDI and the DIY install looks easy and you just run it up your new forestay from the deck. Practical Sailor just did an article and seems to favor it for its function and reasonable cost compared to other units without a head swivel.

http://www.aladous.com/PSLFurlersHeadsailALADOWeb4c.pdf
my buddy just bought a new Alado system ...the spool is very large ...the foils are very strong and have a very good alternating joint assembly making it very strong....he ordered it and in 4 business days it was at my door via fedx....i am very impressed with it ...now we are waiteing on the for rigging to come in and then weather permiting i will join the circus and ride the chair to the top lol ...(he has an almand 35 tri cabin)...

regards

woody

obtw..... if it were to be a choice for me either the ALADO or the CDI are the ones that seemed to get my attention the most
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
Beyond that, they make taking your boat out so much less trouble. No more going forward to douse the jib - a real safety issue in heavy seas where you have to head into the wind and waves to get the jib to fall on deck. With a furler, you do not have to be headed into the wind to furl as easing the sheet takes enough pressure off the sail to furl.
1) Why not change down to a #3 100% jib when it pipes up to 15+ that is not "heavy seas" usually. With a #3 up at 15 or so, two reefs in the main will take you up to 30+. Most of us day sail. If it is going to be blowing and you know small craft warnings are likely (almost every summer day in SF), why not put the right sail on deck at the dock and not worry about it?

2) When it comes to "heavy seas" and 35+ ... just what are you going to do for a storm sail? Anyone figure out how to get real heavy weather sails up without going on the foredeck?

Windowshades don't have great sailing shape. I cannot argue that they make it easy to use the boat in normal fair weather conditions. After sailing with hanks, then going to roller furling, I've gone back to basics ... hanks. I don't mind folding sails. I do mind poor sail shape and useless weight.

When I used a jib bag and stored the sail on the stay, the halyard kept the bag off the deck and as mentioned here, moving the sail around the stay and letting it sit on the pulpit should free the foredeck for ground tackle.

People that think retrieving 90-100 pounds of ground tackle is fun then sign the praises of roller furling over windlasses are sending mixed signals IMO.

Furling units with low drums can be as much of a hindrance to anchoring than a hanked sail on deck. Furling units that do not allow the Genoa halyard tension to be adjusted are for people that don't really care about sail shape. Seldon furlers are ok ... but they come with a metric forestay in 316 alloy. 6mm 316 wire is not the equal of 1/4" in either 316 or 302 alloy. Check for pin diameters, Metric pins in Imperial holes usually means the pins are too small or the tangs have to be drilled ... either way the system is not as designed.

Pro-Furls have a long link option that gets the furling drum up off the deck and allow a Bruce/Delta/CQR type anchor to launch off the roller without getting hung on the furling drum.

I wonder how many people fit 3 bladed props to their boats because the roller furling sails and poor trim require them to motor more than they sail?

Not popular opinions I know. But they are based on my experience over more than 4 decades. I've never met a roller furler/reefing sail I like the look of. It seems to me that almost every boat sold in the last 20 years has come with roller furling sails ... engines and fuel tanks have become larger soon after. That must say something ... there is a C42 for sale in the marina ... the owner points out with pride "It still has the original sails (1995)" ... I doubt that they have gotten better with age.

Randy
 
Sep 25, 2008
385
Harpoon 5.2 Honolulu, HI
I think on a 40-foot boat a roller furling is non-negotiable, unless you are racing only, and with a crew. And from your post, it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing. 40 feet is a lot of boat... I have a 34 and am still surprised at how much I have to just 'go with it' as opposed to making it do what I want with my own strength.
Figure out what you need as far as sail area and roller furling specs, then get on ebay. Not to mention if your current headsail is in good shape you could possible get it converted to RF. But if you google "used sails" you willl find at least 10 places with a big list of used sails that you can search by size for possible replacements. Then sell your old sail online to recoup some of the costs!
As for your chain... depending on what you do, you could just go with a segment of chain (10-20 feet), and use three-strand rope for the rest of your anchor rode. This willl also save you some weight. Not sure how experienced you are (and don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence) but always use the engine to pull forward to make the anchor rode is vertical before you even start pulling the anchor up. I couldn't tell if your engine was working by the time you had to pull up the anchor or not, but no need to try and pull a 15,000 pound boat plus all that anchor gear when you don't have to!
If you're just doing overnights and temporary anchorings, I personally think rope will work fine. If you're going around the world or are living at anchor, then sure, go with all chain. But you'll also want an electric windlass.
It's interesting that your previous owner would have accepted the weight of alll chain anchor rode, but not the weight of a roller furling system.
Good luck with it all!
-Mark
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
I think on a 40-foot boat a roller furling is non-negotiable, unless you are racing only, and with a crew. And from your post, it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing. 40 feet is a lot of boat... I have a 34 and am still surprised at how much I have to just 'go with it' as opposed to making it do what I want with my own strength.

Figure out what you need as far as sail area and roller furling specs, then get on ebay. Not to mention if your current headsail is in good shape you could possible get it converted to RF. But if you google "used sails" you willl find at least 10 places with a big list of used sails that you can search by size for possible replacements. Then sell your old sail online to recoup some of the costs!

It's interesting that your previous owner would have accepted the weight of alll chain anchor rode, but not the weight of a roller furling system.
Good luck with it all!
-Mark
If you cannot control the boat to "make it do what you want" what is wrong? winches too small? Sail handling systems not well thought out?

It has been my experience that sailors don't change sails until long after the shape is gone ... used sails? Spending money for less blown out sails than you have is false economy. Do you send your wife to the Thrift Store to buy clothes and shoes? Do you buy used tires for your car?

Chain rode allows safe anchoring at real world scope. Try setting with 7:1 in a field of cruisers that know 3:1 to 5:1 is just fine and see how many friends you make.

If you have to worry about the cost of gear and good sails for your boat, your budget is too small or your boat is too big.

The rule of thumb is 10% of the purchase price per year as an on going cost to keep a boat in shape. For a 40 footer ... that is what $10,000 per year minimum? That does not include slip fees etc. That is just normal upkeep.

The advice that is most often ignored is to buy a boat no larger than you can afford to keep in "as new" condition. Many sailors seem to think that sails and rigging are "lifetime" and they should not have to spend any more than they do to maintain their Honda Civic.

We had a weather "event" last week. Wind blew 50-70 knots ... the local sail loft had 28 sails dropped off for repair ... 100% roller furling head sails ... most long past their "use by date" ... I'm sure the used sail markets will be flooded with people that think $3000-$5000 to replace a 5-20 year old sail for a $200,000 boat is a rip off.

I don't mean to pick a fight with anyone. Just making the observation that sailors have a reputation for being just a bit on the cheap side. :)

Randy
 

KandD

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Jan 19, 2009
193
Hunter 40 Corpus Christi
Our boat was a racing boat for the PO. His ground tackle was a much lighter then what I bought for it - a 15lb danforth, 2'ft of chain and probably 3/8" three-stranded line. I don't really have plans for racing, it's more of a stress-relief/home (we're liveaboards) for me. I'm working on a masters in Marine Biology and my wife's in the NAVY so this lets us get something for our rent money since we're not stationary enough to buy a house, decorate a home without boxes on the horizon and afford a sailboat at the same time : )

I suppose you could say we're cheep, but I prefer thrifty. I do buy clothes from goodwill or on clearance (my wife LOVES goodwill, it's a treasure hunt), it's a good cause and there is no way I will ever pay $50 - $75 for pants or shirts. We bought used tires once, but they were for my truck and came off a new truck who's owner put on mud-tires right away (normally wouldn't, but I had a hook-up). My point is, while some actions seem cheep, its a trade-off. I'll sacrifice a few minutes on a trip due to "worn out" sails if it means living on a sailboat or my wife and I spending our 5-yr anniversary in Brussels only because we got tiered of Paris. I'm hoping the next few years will see us cruising to the Caribbean while working on research for my Ph.D. At 26, I'm more then willing to bargain hunt if it means I get to have these experiences. That being said, I do consider long-term cost analysis when making a purchase, I just don't spend the money unless I have to, or it's better in the long run. When I get 10-yr, have consulting jobs (I am good a statistics), a few text books I'm ripping off freshmen with, I'll probably go willy-nilly in west marine and have a shiny anchor on the bow of a massive cat named R/V Velella velella... but if it's getting covered in mud anyways, I'll go with galvanized for now (and probably then too).

The issue with pulling up my anchor was part a friend driving the boat who hadn't done it before, part not being able to get to the bow to pull it up, and part not being able to get a grip on it because of the mud. What I've done for now is attach the halyard to the tack and hold up the sail bag that way (the rest of the bag hanks onto the life lines). It's cleared up the deck enough to get to what I need. I'm watching for a windless, and I only have the genoa right now. We have an inner-stay that's disconnected (I don't have a sail for it so it just seemed like needless wear on the genoa), so I imagine I'll furl the genoa and then have a storm jib and a regular jib for the inner-stay when I'm ready for a cutter rig. The sails I have now are starting to show their age and I can get 6.5-7 knots without trying.

Hoisting and managing the sails isn't a problem on Playpen, although I do forget about the forces involved and try to man-handle the sheets every now and then (always good for a laugh, I learned on hobie cats and sunfishes). I had trouble with the cams on the mainsheet at first, but have since learned what to do. We have self-tailing 2-speed winches for the sheets so it's fairly simple. I got worn out hoisting the sails, but I learned the lines rubbed the next sheave over on the deck organizer, and I've fixed that problem as well.
 
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