Man Overboard Tracking Device

[thomas_hoole@yahoo.com]

Hi Everyone:
I am an MBA Student at Babson College and I'm currently starting my last class prior to graduation. As part of this class, we are required to conceive of a product or service idea, characterize its market potential, and develop a preliminary business plan around it. Naturally, I chose to explore an idea that centered on sailing. I would be extremely grateful if you would take a minute to share your thoughts on the idea I have chosen.

Some of you may be aware of the Life Tag system that is offered by Raymarine. This system, while better than nothing, is pretty basic. Crewmembers were an armband transmitter that links wirelessly with a reciever on the boat. When the signal link bewteen the transmitter and the ship-mounted reciever is broken, which will occur if the distance between transmitter and reciever exceeds 30 feet, an alarm sounds indicating a likely MOB event. When properly installed, this system will also automatically activate the MOB feature on a chartplotter. That's essentially all it does.

I'm conceiving of an enhanced system that actually tracks the location of the MOB victim and displays it on another small console mounted screen (about the size of an ST60 instrument) or feeds the position directly into an existing chartplotter. To accmodate this, crewmembers would still wear a small transmitter, but this would wirelessly link to a mast-head mounted reciever that has the ability to deterimine direction and distance. The signal from this reciever would be fed down to the console display or chartplotter.

The Raymarine Life-Tag system currently retails for nearly $600 (including two wearable transmitters). I'm unable to obtain any sales statistics but am getting the impression that this fairly limited system is not exactly flying off the shelf at this price. Here are my questions to the forum:

1. If the system were augmented to include the relative positioning I am describing, would you be interested?
2. If so, how much would you pay?
3. If not interested, have you ever experienced a real man-overboard situation and are you aware of the fatality statistics for these events? (I will share this information with those who respond).

It would be helpful for me to know something about the type of sailing that you do so I would appreciate it if you would indicated if you are a racer, day-sailor, coastal cruiser, or offshore passage-maker in your response. For those of you who chose to respond, thank you so much. This information will be extremely helpful.

Best Regards,
Tom Hoole
thomas_hoole@yahoo.com

 

[Hermit Scott]

Hi Thomas,
I am an inventor. I have been in this business for 3.5 years now. I took my senior project, a safety device, quit school and started a business with it.
One interesting point my licensing lawyer brought up about safety devices was this; when short wave radios first came out, they were available to ships as a safety device. It was very obvious to anyone that a short wave radio can save the lives of everyone on board a ship that was in trouble. When they first came out there wasn't a law that said you had to have one. But one ship went down and everyone on board died. They did not have a short wave radio but the owner could have bought one, but he cheaped out knowing the benefits. Keep in mind there was no law saying he had to have one but since the life saving benefits were obvious and the cost nominal, the families of the crew sued and won against the owner.
You have a great idea, but like most ideas someone has already thought of it and patened it. Is it important that your idea hasn't been thought of before? If so that is a tall order even for an MBA.
One part of the marketability of your idea may be that it would become law to have those aboard boats for certain races or events where money is not as much of an issue as human life that is lost and causes major bad publicity. Human life is always worth more than any money but that's not the way a business works unfortunately.

In my opinion I would rather have the device you describe to save my wife than a short wave radio. But I am not really a sailor, I am just fixing an old boat right now.

 

[Joe]

Let me get this straight Thomas... you are proposing to market a device that transmits gps location data (like an EPIRB)to an onboard receiver. Something like that will be pricey and out of the reach of the normal boater. High end racers already have a similar system... but they have big budgets...... But, I think a simple radio beam transmitter with a strobe light attachment could be somewhat cost effective. Then design a simple radio direction finder that points you towards the mob.

 

[Roger Long]

Almost every GPS in use has a MOB function. You hit one button and it sets up a waypoint and starts a navigation track back towards it. Better to be navigating in a stressful situation with the system normally in use than having to switch to another.

On most vessels where the operator is consciensious enough to lay out the big bucks a system like this would require, the crew will be teathered anyway.

There are already wearable PLB's with GPS that transmit the PIW's location to rescue centers. That information will usually be available to the vessel by radio in event that the vessel can't get close enough to see the PIW. I doubt that the individual transmitters for the system you envision would cost less than the PLB's now available.

An on board receiver that would pick up the nearest PLB transmissions and decode and display the location might be feasible but you are still probably looking at a very, very, small market.

Keep thinking.

 

[tommays]

As we prepare for are next 200 mile Ocean race on July 23 a system like this for 8 people is NOT in the budget and the cost of these things as they become required is driving people out of distance racing

We will have port/starboard jacklines and harness for all crew at all times and will focus on keeping people on the boat in the first place

And we have the best liferaft money can buy


There is SO much more saftey stuff required now then whan i started racing 28 years ago it has become enough allready as there really are not that many people its going to save IF they follow the basic rules about keeping hooked to the boat

 

[ITMaster]

To answer your question Thomas, like several others have said, I already have a MOB feature with my Raymarine Nav system, so I wouldn't be interested in getting another one. ( I already have two stand alone GPS systems for reduncancy reliability)
I have only experienced MOB situations that are planned drills, our other safety practices have hopefully contributed to our not having experienced a for real situation MOB.

Congrats on your near accomplishment on your MBA. Realize the importance of proper and effective communication, all forms of it including both written and oral. Be careful of spell check, for it can make one look silly and appear to be somewhat ignorant.

So, how did you rig up your crewmembers to be armband transmitters? Did they have internally installed antennas or an external device? What type of energy device was employed to satisfy the basic functional requirement of the system?

Best of luck to you!

 

[Hermit Scott]

So "his crew were armband transmitters."
Spellcheck is great..."Magellan circumsized the world"

Thomas-when you invent something there will inevitably be those who tell you that what they have is good enough, and that your invention is not necessary. Mr. Bell was laughed out of a bank trying to get a loan to produce the telephone,telegraphs were good enough. My professors advice was that I should give my invention to a company in trade for a job. My professor was a smart employee, that's all he knew how to teach me to be.
Necessary or not, better or not, those are not the questions you have to answer; 'marketable?', that's the only question when it comes to making money.

 

[thomas_hoole@yahoo.com]

All:
I'm actually surprised by the number of responses I have recieved within twelve hours of having posted my inquiry- what a great forum! My thanks to all of you who have chosen to respond. Below you will find comments and answers to the questions you have responded with.

Hermit Scott:
I was pleased to find a response from an genuine entrepreneur. The anecdote you included is appreciated. As I embark on this project, I am finding truth in your assertion that identifyiing an idea that hasn't been thought of before "is a tall order even for an MBA." Thiis idea in particular appears to be an obvious integration of recent advances in technology so I would not be surprised to find out that someone has already patented it or has a functional prototype deployed. Fortunately, the curriculum designers at Babson recognize this and are willing to promote the entrepreneurial learning experience without requiring us to demostrate the innovative prowess of Thomas Edison.
Your comments about leveraging the regulatory bodies is on the mark- we recieved a similar nudge from the professor who is mentoring us on this project. Was this a factor in the safety device that you build an enterprise around?

Joe:
The analogy to an EPIRB is right on and is the mental model I have for ths system. It's simply a scaled down version compared to the commercially available models that are intended to provide a beacon to third-party rescuers. Your comments about budget sensitivity really caught my attention. It would be helpful for me to know what kind of figure you have in mind that suggests the system would be beyond ther each of most boaters. What pricing threshold do you suggests separates the niche market from the broader sailing market? Thanks also for your suggestions on how to "reshape" the idea. Simplifying it may in fact be the elegant solution.

Roger Long:
I agree strongly with your statement "On most vessels where the operator is consciensious enough to lay down the big bucks a system like this would require, the crew will be teathered anyway." Perhaps an anecdote from my past, as shamefully as it reflects on my past decision making might temper this a bit. I consider myself to be extremely safety conscious, but am subject to periodic lapses in judgement like many others.
Last year, I was sailing about three miles off the eastern shore of Cape Cod (en route from Provincetown to Nantucket). Wind was from the east at 15kts and I was making about 6.5kts. My girlfriend was sleeping down below as I was enjoying a great sail on relatively calm seas. My windward jib-sheet became fouled around one of the bow cleats so I put the boat on autopilot, went forward without a harness, resolved the problem, and went back to the cockpit. When I got back, I realized just how risky and foolish that decision was. Had I fallen overboard, my GF would have had no idea and the boat may have continued saling along for hours while she was sleeping. Consider the implications for both of us.....this is one of those lapses that still puts a pit in my stomach when I think of it even though the catastrophic scenario did not play out in reality.
Liike Joe (above), you expressed some concern about the pricing. Since they must communicate with satellites, I view PLBs as a much more sophisticated and powerful transmitter than the short-range transmitters in my concept. In the end, your concern may be valid- but I am envisioning something a little less sophisticated and hopefully less expensive.
Your closing line is very appropriate- in fact the mantra of all entrepreneurs!

Tommays:
I admire the experience and perspective you bring to this discussion. You are right that strict adherence to a well established safety program should eliminate the need for additional layers of precaution (and the associated expense). Unfortunatley, not all people are as disciplined (or willing to impart discipline to those who lack it) regarding safety. Think of seatbelt and helmet laws.
I'd love to know a little more about the 200 mile ocean race you're about to embark upon if you care to share. Sounds like a great test of skill and endurance!

ITMaster:
Thanks. Like you I have never had to face a genuine man overboard event. Years ago during an ASA Advanced Coastal Cruising course I took where we sailed from Portland, OR to Seattle, Wa, the instructor threw a lifejacket overboard to simulate an unconsious victim and called out "Man Overboard!!" Our crew of six executed the by the numbers, like we had been trained and drilled so many times before, but we were unsuccessful in recovering the lifejacket. We had the MOB feature in our chart-plotter but we were in some strong currents so that "fix" was only good for a few fleeting minutes. The "lesson" that that exercise was intended to impart is actually what prompted this idea as I started brainstorming for an idea.
I re-read my original post after your comments about "spell check" and found a shameful number of mispellings and noun verb disagreements. Clearly I've become too dependent on MS Word to highlight these problems that emerge due to my hasty typing and it shows when I post on the open frontier!
To answer your last question, I haven't moved from concept to nitty-gritty technical detail yet. I'm envisioning a wearable transmitter as opposed to something internal since this will be an active transmitter rather than a passive RFID-like tag. As such, I believe the need to replace batteries (proposed energy source) would preclude the latter. Based on your handle, I'm betting you have some expertise in this area!

Thanks for the congratulations.

Tom

 

[tsmwebb]

Have you googled "PLB man overboard" or something like that? I think there are systems out there that include a PLB, a man overboard alarm and directional receiver for homing in on the PLB... Certainly all the parts exist.

--Tom.

 

[higgs]

I have lost a man overboard in 5 foot seas on Lake Michigan. We never lost sight of him and happikym we were able to retrieve him.

My concern with your idea is cost. If it could be done for 2 or 3 hundred, I would consider it.

What I would really like to see is a waterproof, wireless remote that one could wear on the arm and if overboard could turn the boat.

 

[tommays]

Sea Marshall allready seems to have it covered with there onboard alarm with dirrection to the person ?

 

[Hermit Scott]

I love prototyping. That is what I spend 99% of my time doing. I think a watch would be more comfortable than an arm band, but would end up under the water easier. Maybe a floating knecklace. Also you could have a kinetic charger in it.
A proximity alarm with a loud siren to let everyone know on board that you have a MOB. An LED strobe. In some material I read, the rescuers said the MOB was right by the boat but the seas and storm was so bad they couldn't see him. They said if he had a strobe they could have saved him.
I haven't done that much with my first invention. It is a self spotting weight bench. I just received a letter from the patent examiner that I will be receiving a patent number in September. With a patent an idea becomes much more marketable. Otherwise a company could be buying an idea that someone already has. Gold's gym Japan put them in 30 of their gyms. But the company that built them cut corners and half of them had to be repaired. So I lost the momentum I had with them.
I am having a board built right now for my latest invention. I went to a forum and posted this. http://www.electro-tech-online.com/...views/94739-load-cell-project-i-pay-cash.html
I had a response before a day was up and am meeting with a guy tomorrow. Other companies quoted me up to 10k to do the same work. Electronics is not my thing so I have to find someone else to do it. You don't have to be good at everything, you just have to be able to find people who can do everything.
There is a thousand aspects to bring it all together. Most of them cost money to learn the lesson.

 

[thomas_hoole@yahoo.com]

Thanks for providing the link to the Sea Marshall offering. It does indeed appear to provide all of the functionality I have contemplated. Let me ask the group, if you were given a Sea Marshal system and enough individual transmitters for your entire crew (take cost out of the picture for the moment), would you wear this device regularly and insist that your crew do so as well? Please look at the device before responding as this question is intended to explore the comfort/vanity concerns that often affect people's decisions.

Thanks!

 

[sailingdog]

The problem with PLBs is that they're often not useful to the boat that lost the person overboard, unless the boat is equipped with a 121.5 MHz directional locator antenna.

 

[thomas_hoole@yahoo.com]

This is a very important detail, Sailingdog...thanks for highlighting!

 

[tsmwebb]

The problem with PLBs is that they're often not useful to the boat that lost the person overboard, unless the boat is equipped with a 121.5 MHz directional locator antenna.

Sure, but there are consumer EPRIB/PLB directional receivers out there. It not like they need inventing. Maybe they need more marketing... And with a PLB you've got an established standard so outside assistance can home in on the MOB, too...

--Tom.

 

[sailingdog]

Be aware that triggering a PLB will have other consequences, like triggering a full SAR effort, and may not be the best first step for a MOB... The more localized MOB token systems, like Raymarine's LifeTag system, are probably a better choice than PLBs...

From the Raymarine site on the LifeTag:

Raymarine LifeTag is your personal wireless man overboard system. Utilizing the very latest in radio frequency broadcast technology, LifeTag monitors up to 16 tagged crew members ensuring they are safe and sound onboard. Each LifeTag pendant broadcasts a unique identification code back to the LifeTag base station, telling it that its wearer is "safe." In the event of man overboard, the link between the victim's pendant and the LifeTag base station is broken and the alarm is raised automatically onboard the boat. The lightweight LifeTag pendant can be easily attached to your life jacket, PFD, safety harness or belt. Its featherweight (1.5 ounces) and compact size make it unobtrusive and easy to wear. LifeTag's state-of-the-art electronics ensure a long battery life in excess of 2000 hours.

In the event of an actual man overboard situation, the victim's LifeTag signal is rapidly degraded by immersion in water, or as the distance between the victim and boat increase (typically 30 feet.) The LifeTag base station responds automatically by sounding an audible alarm onboard to roust other crew members. Each LifeTag is also fitted with a manual activation button. Pressing and holding the button for three seconds will manually trigger the system. This enables crew members to call for assistance in case of fire, flooding, medical emergency or other situations where an immediate response is needed.

LifeTag can trigger the automatic man overboard in Raymarine SeaTalk compatible chartplotters, radars and instruments. SeaTalk network integration triggers vital actions automatically such as:

* Sounding the SeaTalk network MOB alarm, providing audible and visual alerts to all stations.
* Recording the GPS latitude/longitude of the MOB event, and making it the target waypoint on all connected SeaTalk devices
* Displaying critical search and rescue (SAR) data
* Lowering the range scale on connected Raymarine chartplotter and radar displays to the lowest possible range scale, enhancing seeing the victim on radar and facilitating maneuvering to recover the victim.

 

[tommays]

I have mostly done fordeck on my big boat racing and people use to make fun of me all the time about even wearing a lifjacket back in the 80s until that first guy slipped overboard

 

[tsmwebb]

...a full SAR effort, and may not be the best first step for a MOB...

Really? If you're worried enough about MOB to have some kind of MOB device at all it seems almost axiomatic to me that any MOB is going to be a full on MAYDAY... If you have a good recovery then call the authorities and tell them all is well, if not and SAR is available, why wait?

--Tom.

 

[tommays]

Things like the Lifesling really took off because they really work and the cost is next to nothing

These systems cost a lot of money in a world were its tough to get PFDs used