I own a hunter H26. What I would like to do is install a mainsail traveller right at the companion way entrance. I saw this on an h270. What do you think? It will free up the cockpit a little more. And may even improve performance.
Mainsail traveller on H26
- Thread starter Willemvan
- Start date
This came up about a month ago and the consensus was to go with a removable traveler like this
This one is by Barton Marine.
I think you are correct that it will improve performance. When I'm on a reach, I can physically grab the sheet where it attaches to the boom and heft the end of the boom to windward... and I can feel the boat pick up speed and my sail shape looks better.
This one is by Barton Marine.
I think you are correct that it will improve performance. When I'm on a reach, I can physically grab the sheet where it attaches to the boom and heft the end of the boom to windward... and I can feel the boat pick up speed and my sail shape looks better.
Hmm. On any point of sail except close hauled, the combo of sheet and vang can correctly position your boom/clew for optimal sail shape. Its just not often as convenient as when you have a good traveler.
Only close hauled, when you want the boom at centerline without pulling all the twist out of the sail do you truly need a traveler. Then you need a traveler to drag the mainsheet car above centerline to do this.
Rob;
So often a traveler has come up as to whether or not it works for the Hunter 26/260. From my experience over the years, I found that a traveler not only was in the way but not needed.
First location would be critical. You cannot really put it over the companionway as you would have to duck under going into the cabin and interfere with the raising of the companionway. As for the removable traveler, the cockpit is small and the cam cleats are too low to react in time on that traveler not to mention folks will fall over it. The only place is in front of the companionway which will neccessatate drilling thru the deck into the rear berth area. Remember I told you that the ceiling liner is bonded in places thus there are voids between the liner and deck. You cannot simply put a bolt thru and then place washer and nut onto the ceiling or you will compress the liner as seen by me in the past. The only way is to cut large holes to put a socket attached to a long extension thru the liner to tighten up or you can put metal tubes up thru long bolts that protrude thru the liner and then place a washer and nut on the end of the tube and tighten up. Either way it is in the way of going into the cabin and if your wife wants to lean against the cabin coach house, she and others will be sitting on top of the traveler.
I have found if you simply when tacking let the mainsheet out further to spill the wind and then pull it in, you will maintain your speed thru the tack. I have found with the combination of the large mainsail, the power is in that sail and for some reason a traveler is not needed on the 26/260. I have logged so many hours over the years and yet beat other boats specifically the 26/260 who used travelers with the above tricks.
Food for thought
crazy dave
So often a traveler has come up as to whether or not it works for the Hunter 26/260. From my experience over the years, I found that a traveler not only was in the way but not needed.
First location would be critical. You cannot really put it over the companionway as you would have to duck under going into the cabin and interfere with the raising of the companionway. As for the removable traveler, the cockpit is small and the cam cleats are too low to react in time on that traveler not to mention folks will fall over it. The only place is in front of the companionway which will neccessatate drilling thru the deck into the rear berth area. Remember I told you that the ceiling liner is bonded in places thus there are voids between the liner and deck. You cannot simply put a bolt thru and then place washer and nut onto the ceiling or you will compress the liner as seen by me in the past. The only way is to cut large holes to put a socket attached to a long extension thru the liner to tighten up or you can put metal tubes up thru long bolts that protrude thru the liner and then place a washer and nut on the end of the tube and tighten up. Either way it is in the way of going into the cabin and if your wife wants to lean against the cabin coach house, she and others will be sitting on top of the traveler.
I have found if you simply when tacking let the mainsheet out further to spill the wind and then pull it in, you will maintain your speed thru the tack. I have found with the combination of the large mainsail, the power is in that sail and for some reason a traveler is not needed on the 26/260. I have logged so many hours over the years and yet beat other boats specifically the 26/260 who used travelers with the above tricks.
Food for thought
crazy dave
I agree with that the traveller mounted at the companionway or between the cockpit seats ends up being to limited in travel to be really effective, you end up with only 12 inch of travel ( 6"+/- of center). Also the main sheet load increases with the companionway location (requiring mid boom sheeting). The 6:1 main ratio is to low for the added load with higher winds and you will have to use the winch to trim the main. If you check in the owner mods section you will see that I went with an above seat line traveller. Yes you will have to clean the factory dog-snott out of the inner/outer liner area and refill with reinforced thickend epoxy, thru drill on the starboard side and anchor on the port side to secure eye pad mounts. Over all I like the extra control I get on the main sail. Having a tiller I can sit on a rail seat and drive the boat with this set-up. G
OK let's clear the air here.
First, sailing off-the-wind a boat with a good vang and a mainsheet can duplicate the needed functionality of a traveler by vang sheeting. This means fixing the vang so any release of the sheet results in only lateral movement, and not vertical that would effect twist.
But even so a traveler is better, and bigger is better.
So far so good. And I agree with most of what has been written here.
But going to windward close hauled, there is NO WAY that a boat without a traveler can sail as well as one with a traveler. All else being equal, NO WAY. Sorry. Anyone that tells you otherwise is wrong. A traveler allows you to pull the boom to centerline without effecting twist. Any performance minded sailor will tell you this is KEY to upwind performance. Key. And you simply CANNOT do this without a traveler. Trying to by pulling on the mainsheet simply pulls the leech closed, removing all twist and killing drive. Slow.
And the deal is that the traveler does not have to be long to do this. Only a few inches to windward will do it. That means that even a short traveler (like the removable Burton) will be a big help here. The sad reality is that 90% of sailors don't do this.
Want proof? Check out this puny traveler. Must be a cruiser set up for people who don't care about performance, right?
It's the cockpit of a J24 race boat.
Want optimal performance? Get a traveler. ANY SIZE.
First, sailing off-the-wind a boat with a good vang and a mainsheet can duplicate the needed functionality of a traveler by vang sheeting. This means fixing the vang so any release of the sheet results in only lateral movement, and not vertical that would effect twist.
But even so a traveler is better, and bigger is better.
So far so good. And I agree with most of what has been written here.
But going to windward close hauled, there is NO WAY that a boat without a traveler can sail as well as one with a traveler. All else being equal, NO WAY. Sorry. Anyone that tells you otherwise is wrong. A traveler allows you to pull the boom to centerline without effecting twist. Any performance minded sailor will tell you this is KEY to upwind performance. Key. And you simply CANNOT do this without a traveler. Trying to by pulling on the mainsheet simply pulls the leech closed, removing all twist and killing drive. Slow.
And the deal is that the traveler does not have to be long to do this. Only a few inches to windward will do it. That means that even a short traveler (like the removable Burton) will be a big help here. The sad reality is that 90% of sailors don't do this.
Want proof? Check out this puny traveler. Must be a cruiser set up for people who don't care about performance, right?
It's the cockpit of a J24 race boat.
Want optimal performance? Get a traveler. ANY SIZE.
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Why would the track need to go way out if you're only raising the car a little above the centre anyway. Except maybe if the main is so bagged that the car needs to be in the middle of next week to get some shape.
I agree with Jack, some is better than none.
I agree with Jack, some is better than none.
Jackdaw and others. The 26/260 was designed for cruising, not racing. The cockpit is not as spacious either and with a cockpit mounted traveler between the seats, there have been many bumped knees and folks falling over and in some cases injury of varying degrees. The only place for a traveler is really in front of the companionway and even there women like to lay back against the cabin but not so if there is an installed traveler not to mention what is needed to install there.
I use to have a friend now deceased who sailed with me that competitively raced in the Mediterrianian who taught me a lot about methods of sailing in races particularly on the 26/260. We took on the J 24, Capri 22 and others that he beat with stock sails. He felt thru sail control with a large main and 110 jib, a traveler was not needed on the 26/260 which I at first even questioned but proved me wrong. even after his death I would win using the 26/26o
However, I go back to the basic design for the boat which is cruising and with the confines of the cockpit felt a traveler was not needed. Now let the cannon fotter be fired. I have nothing else to say.
I use to have a friend now deceased who sailed with me that competitively raced in the Mediterrianian who taught me a lot about methods of sailing in races particularly on the 26/260. We took on the J 24, Capri 22 and others that he beat with stock sails. He felt thru sail control with a large main and 110 jib, a traveler was not needed on the 26/260 which I at first even questioned but proved me wrong. even after his death I would win using the 26/26o
However, I go back to the basic design for the boat which is cruising and with the confines of the cockpit felt a traveler was not needed. Now let the cannon fotter be fired. I have nothing else to say.
Dave,
I think we've had this discussion before?? ;^)
The question is not if the 260 was designed for cruising. Or if the cockpit was designed for a traveler or not. Those questions are not relevant here.
The question is, if the 260 (or any traveler-less boat) HAD a traveler, would it sail to windward better?? The answer to that question is a very simple YES.
Your one-off experiences with the other chap might mean that he was a better sailor than the other guys on the racecourse that day. It's easy to make up a performance difference by sailing smarter. That happens all the time. But you cannot create assumptions about the boat based on that.
The mechanics here are very very simple. The ability to bring the boom to centerline with the correct amount of twist is a key component to being able to sail effectively to windward. In order to do that you need a traveler. This is not just my opinion. Read any one of the hundreds of on-line guides like this one, or ask a pro.
http://www.ullmansailssandiego.com/mainsail-trim-techniques-tips.php
As a test, if you sailed a traveler-less 260 in a match race against me in one modified with a traveler, I would beat you every time to windward. Every time. That's not about you. My boat would have more power and point better. Tactically I'd simply cover you, tack with you, but be higher and faster.
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OK I've gotten a couple of PMs on this asking more for more detail as to how and why. OK.
Look at this picture of BlueJ going upwind in optimal trim. Notice how the traveler is pulled to windward, which puts the boom directly on the center-line of the boat. The main-sheet is adjusted so the sail has the correct amount of twist to balance trim/power and heel.
Someone asked why that does not over-trim the boat. Great question! The reason is that the mainsail 'sails' in a relative header to the jib, because the backwash is turned to windward as it passes the headsail. This means that for optimal trim, the main MUST have a lower AOA (angle of attack) than the jib to generate full power. Using the traveler to pull the boom to center-line does this. Attempting to do this using just the main-sheet pulls all the twist out of the sail and chokes it. That's slow. And if you think about it, you realize that in fact it is IMPOSSIBLE to get the boom to center-line using just the mainsheet. You need a traveler for optimal performance.
Look at this picture of BlueJ going upwind in optimal trim. Notice how the traveler is pulled to windward, which puts the boom directly on the center-line of the boat. The main-sheet is adjusted so the sail has the correct amount of twist to balance trim/power and heel.
Someone asked why that does not over-trim the boat. Great question! The reason is that the mainsail 'sails' in a relative header to the jib, because the backwash is turned to windward as it passes the headsail. This means that for optimal trim, the main MUST have a lower AOA (angle of attack) than the jib to generate full power. Using the traveler to pull the boom to center-line does this. Attempting to do this using just the main-sheet pulls all the twist out of the sail and chokes it. That's slow. And if you think about it, you realize that in fact it is IMPOSSIBLE to get the boom to center-line using just the mainsheet. You need a traveler for optimal performance.
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Exactly correct.
Lots of on-line stuff on slot effect, all which say the same thing. Need tighter AOA on the main vs headsail. Traveler to windward.
http://www.onemetre.net/Design/Slot/slot.htm
I am a cruiser not a racer but for simplicity if I owned a 260, no traveler. I respect your position but each boat does have differences and I would have agreed years ago but I am not going any further as I focused on a specific boat and not in general.
While my comments were written about sailboats in general, they certainly apply directly to this specific boat. The OP asked specifically if adding a traveler would improve performance of his H26. It will. Do you disagree? You comments seem to indicate so.
My point is not to pick on you, but to make sure that the community at large gets correct information.
Boats go upwind better with travelers
Some boats are designed without them for good (marketing) reasons.
Those boats would perform better with travelers added.
My point is not to pick on you, but to make sure that the community at large gets correct information.
Boats go upwind better with travelers
Some boats are designed without them for good (marketing) reasons.
Those boats would perform better with travelers added.
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It is not about Cruiser VS Racer, its about proper sail trim and getting the most out of one's boat. In my ASA 101 class 7+ years ago, our second day on the water we were taught about tell tails and sail controls. That included the proper use of the traveler. It just makes sense to have and to use one. Plain and simple. From the Ulman Sail link;
Main sheet and Traveler
The two most important guides for trimming a mainsail upwind are to keep the boom on the center line of the boat, and the top batten (three batten main) or the second batten down (four batten main) parallel to the boom. At this point, the leech telltale at the appropriate batten should flow. If it doesn’t, you should twist the sail off more by easing the sheet and pulling the traveler further to windward.
It really doesn't get any plainer than that.
Jackdaw,
I don't have a traveler yet on my boat but I have experimented with pushing the boom over to weather by hand or rigging a barber hauler to the main-sheet in order to guage performance differences. One observation I've made is that I can pinch closer with the boom pulled up high to weather as the sails only really care about their AOA, not the boats heading, at least until the thrust vector is trying to pull the boat sideways. So do you racers ever use this as a tactic to point higher; say to beat an opponent while trying to round a mark?
I don't have a traveler yet on my boat but I have experimented with pushing the boom over to weather by hand or rigging a barber hauler to the main-sheet in order to guage performance differences. One observation I've made is that I can pinch closer with the boom pulled up high to weather as the sails only really care about their AOA, not the boats heading, at least until the thrust vector is trying to pull the boat sideways. So do you racers ever use this as a tactic to point higher; say to beat an opponent while trying to round a mark?
What you have discovered with your test is what I'm talking about. Up to an optimal point, your boom/main being closer to weather helps you point, and maintain optimal speed. This is what racers will call their windward Velocity Made Good (VMG) point, a combination of pointing angle and boatspeed that gets them to windward the fastest in any given true wind speed. See the chart below. You can see that in 8 knots true wind the VMG angle for the F260 is 40 true (26 degrees apparent!) giving 4.25 knots of boat speed. But as you can see, if you trim you can pinch up another 8 degrees before you totally stall. Most boats cannot trim their headsail in (sheeting angle too wide) close enough to do this all the way. Anyway during this time the loss of speed does not make up for the better angle.
So you can 'pinch' slightly higher than this VMG point of course by trimming harder and heading up slightly. But your actual VMG suffers so it is not fast. See chart again. But sometimes we do this as you note for tactical reasons, like a nearby boat or a mark. So to answer your question, yes we do. However in general, I always tell my team or students to SAIL FAST. Go at optimal VMG, don't pinch unless for a very good short-term tactical reason.
You can see the relationship between boatspeed and angle here. The triangle on each windspeed plot marks the optimal angle for max VMG at the wind speed. If you 'pinch' here you can point slightly higher, but boat speed falls off too much for the better angle to make up.
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We can agree to disagree. The previous statements were applicable only to the Hunter 26/260 why I never suggested a mainsheet traveler. First, most of the customers preferred cruising and many over the years on trailerables never used a traveler. On the above two boats the hull and decks were basically the same with modifications to the 260 to accommodate a wheel and rear entry. The cockpit area was not as spacious as on some other models so putting in a traveler was not viable when it came to comfort for the cruising customer. Over the companionway would have restricted from raising that not to mention ducking underneath while entering the cabin. Between the cockpit floor walls was not long enough and even then that was a knee and shin knocker with an ouch. The only viable place was in front of the companionway and many women did not like that as they wanted to lay back against the coach house plus installation was not as easy with a void between the deck and interior ceiling liner. Therefore as a dealer, I never advocated for a traveler on this specific model.
As I had indicated, each model boat is different. This had the B&R rig with swept back spreaders and no backstay. There were several things going here. Sheeting in the jib was much tighter than most over small boats. With no backstay, the design of the mainsail was much bigger as Hunter felt more power should be in the main, not the jib vs. other models/manufacturers. The design of the mainsail if you compare to others is different in essence to catch more air I guess for lack of words. The shape of the hull is much different and my suggestion thru sail control and knowledge of the area, heeling over 12-14 degrees was not necessary. Pointing into the wind was much closer than most models.
Then there were several who taught me tricks how to sail without the need of a traveler on this specific model and I will not discuss who taught me. Yes I did race against J 24 and others with either the 26 or 260 out of box with stock sails and won.
I am not as learned as you with terminology but went only what I know about the specific boat model. However the biggest reason why I did not advocate travelers that over 90% of my customers were cruising only and wanted to simply enjoy sailing without racing. As one customer said, make it simple and make it stupid so I can enjoy life from this rat race we live in. He felt racing was another way of a fast pace but that is where I disagreed with the customer about racing.
You like to enjoy racing more than many with the use of addl. equipment and I am so glad if you are an instructor to teach that and it appears you have the boat for it. I use to enjoy sailing but when I turned that into a business, it was not as fun anymore and when I left the industry, I never looked back. For the past 1 1/2 years, I have enjoyed living on top of my little mountain building a home, clearing acreage to enjoy the scenery, plowing snow with my tractor downhill, near completing modeling the basement by myself with a model train room in that mix, meeting new friends, hiking and most of all my two grandsons and so on. I really do not want to discuss this any further nor will I. There is an expression that a cat has nine lives. I have exhausted that when yesterday the ground gave way under the riding lawn mower and 8 foot roll over couple of times into the ditch. Crazy does it again having enjoyed that roller coaster.
As I had indicated, each model boat is different. This had the B&R rig with swept back spreaders and no backstay. There were several things going here. Sheeting in the jib was much tighter than most over small boats. With no backstay, the design of the mainsail was much bigger as Hunter felt more power should be in the main, not the jib vs. other models/manufacturers. The design of the mainsail if you compare to others is different in essence to catch more air I guess for lack of words. The shape of the hull is much different and my suggestion thru sail control and knowledge of the area, heeling over 12-14 degrees was not necessary. Pointing into the wind was much closer than most models.
Then there were several who taught me tricks how to sail without the need of a traveler on this specific model and I will not discuss who taught me. Yes I did race against J 24 and others with either the 26 or 260 out of box with stock sails and won.
I am not as learned as you with terminology but went only what I know about the specific boat model. However the biggest reason why I did not advocate travelers that over 90% of my customers were cruising only and wanted to simply enjoy sailing without racing. As one customer said, make it simple and make it stupid so I can enjoy life from this rat race we live in. He felt racing was another way of a fast pace but that is where I disagreed with the customer about racing.
You like to enjoy racing more than many with the use of addl. equipment and I am so glad if you are an instructor to teach that and it appears you have the boat for it. I use to enjoy sailing but when I turned that into a business, it was not as fun anymore and when I left the industry, I never looked back. For the past 1 1/2 years, I have enjoyed living on top of my little mountain building a home, clearing acreage to enjoy the scenery, plowing snow with my tractor downhill, near completing modeling the basement by myself with a model train room in that mix, meeting new friends, hiking and most of all my two grandsons and so on. I really do not want to discuss this any further nor will I. There is an expression that a cat has nine lives. I have exhausted that when yesterday the ground gave way under the riding lawn mower and 8 foot roll over couple of times into the ditch. Crazy does it again having enjoyed that roller coaster.
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Wow Dave your fingers must be tired!
I've got nothing more to say... Anyone that has read through this thread will already drawn their own conclusions. Sail on!
I've got nothing more to say... Anyone that has read through this thread will already drawn their own conclusions. Sail on!